Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

Underrail'n'incline

Self-Ejected

Excidium II

Self-Ejected
Joined
Jun 21, 2015
Messages
1,866,227
Location
Third World
IMO the problem with Excidium's anti-cooldown argument is that he is bringing up pen and paper concepts as alternatives. The issue here is that CRPGs play much much faster than P&P. The amount of combat encounters grows exponentially in CRPGs while the narrative remains roughly the same or maybe doubles or triples in length depending on side-quests and fluff. Thus combat related tools that are balanced around risk are unsuited for CRPGs. Everyone would simply huddle around the most consistent build. Having your grenades blow up in your backpack is fun in PnP where you have one encounter per session and it constitutes a "funny" story. Having it happening 6 times in 20 minutes will have the player reaching for the re-roll or uninstall button. Apply the exact same analogy for a grenade that explodes 2 turns too late. Imagine it happening in 6 fights in 20 minutes. Trap build ? Masochist build ?

Second, availability. Same problem. The length of CRPGs. What happens if you simply run out of bullets with no way to restock midway through an 80 hours game. There is no DM to throw you a bone and adjust availability on the fly. Start over ? If yes, how many times ?
That's not an inherent problem to CRPGs. Designers just structure it that way because it's how the average player likes it. Go around the world talking to everyone and solving people's problems, then advance the MQ when it's time to move to another area. Enter a dungeon and slaughter the pockets of enemies just standing around or walking back and forth.
 
Joined
Aug 6, 2008
Messages
7,269
Disclaimer: feel free to skip this TLDR post, I wouldn't read it either.

IMO the problem with Excidium's anti-cooldown argument is that he is bringing up pen and paper concepts as alternatives. The issue here is that CRPGs play much much faster than P&P. The amount of combat encounters grows exponentially in CRPGs while the narrative remains roughly the same or maybe doubles or triples in length depending on side-quests and fluff. Thus combat related tools that are balanced around risk are unsuited for CRPGs. Everyone would simply huddle around the most consistent build. Having your grenades blow up in your backpack is fun in PnP where you have one encounter per session and it constitutes a "funny" story. Having it happening 6 times in 20 minutes will have the player reaching for the re-roll or uninstall button. Apply the exact same analogy for a grenade that explodes 2 turns too late. Imagine it happening in 6 fights in 20 minutes. Trap build ? Masochist build ?

Second, availability. Same problem. The length of CRPGs. What happens if you simply run out of bullets with no way to restock midway through an 80 hours game. There is no DM to throw you a bone and adjust availability on the fly. Start over ? If yes, how many times ?

Balancing non-infinite abilities/spells/tools has always been the bane of crpgs. Vancian, mana/stamina, per encounters, cooldowns, availability, risk, whatever the fuck ever, it all breaks down by mid-level or mid-game because there is no DM and you can't make the game simply hard dead-end you mid-way through. True there are some games that soft dead-end you and they are awesome but for every one of those games there is a legion of Rogueys crying "trapbuild".

Back to cooldowns. They suck because in most games that use them you end up cycling through them from the most powerful to the least until the enemy dies or you die. Every battle.
In Underrail you don't get to cycle through. You have 1 or 2 turns (in serious fights) before your wiped. And you have maybe 8 options available to you (on cooldowns). You have to choose witch 2-3 maybe 4 out of those eight will get you alive through those 1-2 turns without dieing and prefferably killing the enemy. That's why the system works. Would another system automatically achieve a better result. IMO no. Because this is about as good as CRPG combat gets. Would another system achieve the same quality. Of course. Would it necessarily surpass it. Not really.

The holy grail of perfect tactical combat in CRPGs is just that - an unattainable goal. Also, in before JA2: JA2 combat is really good but it gets repetitive and boring midway through the game. There, I said it.

In my opinion the only thing wrong with Underrail is the lack of a few (just a few) quality of life options. As for the story and C&C they are not that relevant since it's not that kind of game.

For me, Underrail and AoD cover most of the bases between them to satisfy all my inner %fags and that makes this kind of gaming year pretty rare.
Brolapsed because of saying JA2 combat gets repetitive and boring. The rest of it is spot on - especially about the issues with Underrail are generally some QoL issues.
 

Lord Andre

Arcane
Joined
Apr 11, 2011
Messages
3,716
Location
Gypsystan
That's not an inherent problem to CRPGs. Designers just structure it that way because it's how the average player likes it. Go around the world talking to everyone and solving people's problems, then advance the MQ when it's time to move to another area. Enter a dungeon and slaughter the pockets of enemies just standing around or walking back and forth.

True and I tend to agree with you on this. But a lot of stars would have to align for someone, anyone to break out of that rut and make a good game at the same time. No Undertale shit.

In such a context you are right of course, but such context also surpasses the subject of Underrail and crosses into "What is an RPG?" territory. We'll see if such a game is ever made but for now Underrail is still a good game simply by comparison to its lessers.
 
Joined
Aug 6, 2008
Messages
7,269
Brolapsed because of saying JA2 combat gets repetitive and boring. The rest of it is spot on - especially about the issues with Underrail are generally some QoL issues.

I didn't always feel like this but alas my attention span has lessened with age. :(
Behead all of those that insult JA2.

But like I said - you're spot on. The system works because it was designed to work (rather than shoehorned in). This is something systemfags should get - no system is itself perfect or inherently flawed. Cooldowns are (generally) implemented poorly - but Underrail is a prime example of the mechanic being implemented well. And at the end of the day, I walk away from Underrail just gobsmacked at how well all of these mechanics come together. The crafting system has a lot of variety but is simple and intuitive. The combat system is simple - there's nothing revolutionary about it - but it is designed to take advantage of a variety of skills, a variety of builds, and use both expendable resources (be they grenades, traps, hypos, etc.) and the landscape to get an advantage, which feeds in to a robust and varied character system, with a decent amount of room for error but still punishes stupid decisions and credits smart builds.

That's not to say any of the individual elements are perfect. I think some skills are generally under-utilized (especially speech skills, but also things like pickpocketing), and some better quest design could have made them more viable.

If they make Underrail 2, or Underrailer, or Overrail, or whatever the sequel is, they have an excellent base to work on. They've already made a fantastic game. They should just copy the things that work and spend more resources on some better quests and better skill utilization.
 

Niektory

one of some
Patron
Joined
Mar 15, 2005
Messages
808
Location
the great potato in the sky
Back to cooldowns. They suck because in most games that use them you end up cycling through them from the most powerful to the least until the enemy dies or you die. Every battle.
In Underrail you don't get to cycle through. You have 1 or 2 turns (in serious fights) before your wiped. And you have maybe 8 options available to you (on cooldowns). You have to choose witch 2-3 maybe 4 out of those eight will get you alive through those 1-2 turns without dieing and prefferably killing the enemy. That's why the system works. Would another system automatically achieve a better result. IMO no. Because this is about as good as CRPG combat gets. Would another system achieve the same quality. Of course. Would it necessarily surpass it. Not really.
A lot of battles are not resolved in 1-2 turns. I guess battle length can vary significantly with different builds, because on my crossbow/throwing character I am 1-2-3-1-2-3 cooldown cycling quite frequently. Yes, there are still important choices to make, but they are quite limited to what a more flexible system can provide, especially after the opening turn or two you're increasingly stuck into a static cooldown rotation. Thankfully not everything is on cooldown so it's not as bad as it could be, but there's definitely room for improvement.
 

NotAGolfer

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Dec 1, 2013
Messages
2,527
Location
Land of Bier and Bratwurst
Divinity: Original Sin 2
Back to cooldowns. They suck because in most games that use them you end up cycling through them from the most powerful to the least until the enemy dies or you die. Every battle.
In Underrail you don't get to cycle through. You have 1 or 2 turns (in serious fights) before your wiped. And you have maybe 8 options available to you (on cooldowns). You have to choose witch 2-3 maybe 4 out of those eight will get you alive through those 1-2 turns without dieing and prefferably killing the enemy. That's why the system works. Would another system automatically achieve a better result. IMO no. Because this is about as good as CRPG combat gets. Would another system achieve the same quality. Of course. Would it necessarily surpass it. Not really.
A lot of battles are not resolved in 1-2 turns. I guess battle length can vary significantly with different builds, because on my crossbow/throwing character I am 1-2-3-1-2-3 cooldown cycling quite frequently. Yes, there are still important choices to make, but they are quite limited to what a more flexible system can provide, especially after the opening turn or two you're increasingly stuck into a static cooldown rotation. Thankfully not everything is on cooldown so it's not as bad as it could be, but there's definitely room for improvement.
I don't think it has anything to to with the systems but with the single char combat which automatically limits tactics/strategics. Mind you, we are not even comparing it to better predecessors, since nearly every CRPG I played in my life has weaker combat than Underrail. Right now we are just following the old Codex habit of comparing it to PnP roots (don't apply, it's a CRPG, no GM, needs to add some balancing, different beast entirely) and the dream RPG in our heads (which often only exists in vague and nebulous form, but we know it exists somehow and it's awesome of course, just like us ^^).
This will never be a new UFO: Enemy Unknown or JA2, even with a different special ability balancing system or even more abilities to choose from. But it doesn't need to be, since those single char CRPGs have a big advantage over party based games that also applied to Fallout and made it that great: The char development decisions you make can have much more impact, since there is no party that cushions your failings to level a character optimally for the job you want him to do. So that aspect of the game feels like a game again, with choices and consequences and the possibility to lose or at least have it hard at some point in the game because your illiterate Int3 tribal cannot into reading.
Party based games can still be a lot better in the combat department though (since they can reward the player for finding combinations of very specialized builds that boost each other and still have the squad tactics game on top of that) but sadly they usually aren't.

Btw I'm playing on hard and Lord Andre might have exaggerated a bit but I think his argument still stands. You and the enemy are both quite squishy (a thing most good games seem to have in common), so the fight is deadly and over in maybe 5 or six turns against harder enemies (1 or 2 against trash mobs). And I can rarely cycle through special abilities in that time, it's usually combat preparation (traps, some buff) followed by enemy disablers (molotov, telekinetic punch, net and so on, the list is long) and then by special attacks tied to feats. Maybe another round of disablers later but that's it.
It's not overly strategical since that basic order stays the same for most encounters, but the way all those nifty systems interact with each other elevates it to something better.
There are a lot of decisions to make (also depending on what options your build offers of course):
Should I use the hammer or the gloves? DT anyone?
Is that enemy resistant against psi disablers?
Does it help to reduce that enemy's strength?
Is that special attack I have there context sensitive like make it bleed with a lot of knife stabs and only then eviscerate?
Which enemy in the group is the most dangerous? If they all are dangerous, which one can I eliminate in the first 1 or 2 rounds?
Is there a chokepoint and can I use it to my advantage? (psi wall, traps, molotov, ...)
Melee or ranged enemies? If ranged, what weapon type (equip another armor or shield emitter before combat)?
If melee, can I kite them? Do I have to use a trap or net or feat to pin them down to keep them at distance?
Which trap will work best on that enemy type? What kind of special bolts? Should I put another item on the belt that might come in handy during the encounter?
Might there be stealthed enemies around? Better throw a flare or 2...
and so on

So the systems are very solid and make it surprisingly fun for a single char CRPG. Much more fun than the braindead go for the eyes Fallout combat imo (which was still fun just like Diablo combat can be fun even though it's dumb).
Anyway, I rarely get to cycle through abilities since I have to react to my rapidly dwindling health (did I mention enemies are deadly). I even have to retreat after killing 1 or 2 enemies from a group quite often.
 
Last edited:

Lord Andre

Arcane
Joined
Apr 11, 2011
Messages
3,716
Location
Gypsystan
I play on hard too and if I'm facing 1 hammer guy, 1 knife guy, a crosbow guy, a psionic or thrower with flasbang + the mandatory gun guy I have to think my 1-2 turns carefully or I'm paste. Not every fight is like this but there are enough. Thinking of assault on Coretech werehouse or lurker base where I kill a bunch of enemies, have maybe 50% hp left, I hit space to end combat satisfied and instead a lurker de-cloaks and kills me with a few electric knife slashes...

May vary on build though. From other people's accounts crossbow+throwing seems...less fun.
 

ArchAngel

Arcane
Joined
Mar 16, 2015
Messages
20,034
I play on hard too and if I'm facing 1 hammer guy, 1 knife guy, a crosbow guy, a psionic or thrower with flasbang + the mandatory gun guy I have to think my 1-2 turns carefully or I'm paste. Not every fight is like this but there are enough. Thinking of assault on Coretech werehouse or lurker base where I kill a bunch of enemies, have maybe 50% hp left, I hit space to end combat satisfied and instead a lurker de-cloaks and kills me with a few electric knife slashes...

May vary on build though. From other people's accounts crossbow+throwing seems...less fun.
If your detection is not that good using flares during combat is useful. Also Quick Tinkering might be a good feat for anyone. Placing bear traps mid battle destroys most melee enemies.
 

Eyestabber

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Jan 15, 2015
Messages
4,733
Location
HUEland
PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015
I never had a crossbow related rage moment. But then again, every metagamer worth his salt knows that weapons that are balanced around being "less effective vs armor" should be avoided like the plague. :smug:
 

oneself

Arcane
Shitposter
Joined
May 14, 2010
Messages
9,502
Location
A minority-white, multicultural hellscape
That's not an inherent problem to CRPGs. Designers just structure it that way because it's how the average player likes it. Go around the world talking to everyone and solving people's problems, then advance the MQ when it's time to move to another area. Enter a dungeon and slaughter the pockets of enemies just standing around or walking back and forth.

I don't think pleasing the demographic is the foremost concern for all designers.

What is the alternative though? Simply pointing out problems don't solve problems. Solving problems solves them.
 
Self-Ejected

Excidium II

Self-Ejected
Joined
Jun 21, 2015
Messages
1,866,227
Location
Third World
The first step to the solution is to erase from existance the concept of sidequests that aren't related to the main quest in some way. Second step is to have more abstract travel and encounters, unless it's a battle or maze you need to navigate, there's no reason to waste time designing levels to walk around with little dudes in "real scale".
 
Self-Ejected

Excidium II

Self-Ejected
Joined
Jun 21, 2015
Messages
1,866,227
Location
Third World
Come on. Get serious.

How would you balance Underrail without cooldown while keeping variety?
I already made at least two posts about that my man, one in response to aenra in the context of psi the other to eyestabber/epeli in a general context. What does that have to do with the structure of CRPGs anyway (which is what that quoted post was about).
 

Lord Andre

Arcane
Joined
Apr 11, 2011
Messages
3,716
Location
Gypsystan
If your detection is not that good using flares during combat is useful. Also Quick Tinkering might be a good feat for anyone. Placing bear traps mid battle destroys most melee enemies.

I make liberal use of fireballs for de-cloaking enemies :) but yeah flares are useful. Anyway my point was that the combat is at its best when you have to juggle multiple heavy threats simultaneously in a short time.
 

oneself

Arcane
Shitposter
Joined
May 14, 2010
Messages
9,502
Location
A minority-white, multicultural hellscape
I already made at least two posts about that my man, one in response to aenra in the context of psi the other to eyestabber/epeli in a general context. What does that have to do with the structure of CRPGs anyway (which is what that quoted post was about).

He meant that there is no DM to fix things on the fly. So it needs a one size fits all solution. CD just happens to be one way of doing it.
 

Eyestabber

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Jan 15, 2015
Messages
4,733
Location
HUEland
PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015
Come on. Get serious.

How would you balance Underrail without cooldown while keeping variety in strategies?

Did I actually ever request for it to be replaced? I only remember saying it's shit. I'm not stupid, I realize how much work it would be for design and implementation. This is something that needs to be done right from the start.

His opinion is simply "burn it down and start over without cooldowns". All the back and forth is simply there to pretend the argument is more elaborate than it actually is.
 

oneself

Arcane
Shitposter
Joined
May 14, 2010
Messages
9,502
Location
A minority-white, multicultural hellscape
Come on. Get serious.

How would you balance Underrail without cooldown while keeping variety in strategies?

Did I actually ever request for it to be replaced? I only remember saying it's shit. I'm not stupid, I realize how much work it would be for design and implementation. This is something that needs to be done right from the start.

His opinion is simply "burn it down and start over without cooldowns". All the back and forth is simply there to pretend the argument is more elaborate than it actually is.

Problem with that becomes "Why would you ever use a normal attack as opposed to an aimed one or simply chain stunning people.

I can see resource gate working on PSI, but outside of it?
 
Self-Ejected

Excidium II

Self-Ejected
Joined
Jun 21, 2015
Messages
1,866,227
Location
Third World
Problem with that becomes "Why would you ever use a normal attack as opposed to an aimed one or simply chain stunning people.
You really can't see why? The most obvious ones in every game ever would be accuracy modifiers, AP costs, enemy defenses and enviromental circumstances.

His opinion is simply "burn it down and start over without cooldowns". All the back and forth is simply there to pretend the argument is more elaborate than it actually is.
Nice twisting of words. I don't know at which point of when you parachuted into the discussion cooldowns are bad and here's how proper RPG systems do it became how to do a fast and simple system conversion in Underrail.
 

oneself

Arcane
Shitposter
Joined
May 14, 2010
Messages
9,502
Location
A minority-white, multicultural hellscape
You really can't see why? The most obvious ones in every game ever would be accuracy modifiers, AP costs, enemy defenses and enviromental circumstances.

One will still be arguably better than another, so there will be little reason to use the worse one. It is why FO2 mid/lategame you never use anything but aimed shot to the eye again.

Which then leads to the problems of variety.
 
Self-Ejected

Excidium II

Self-Ejected
Joined
Jun 21, 2015
Messages
1,866,227
Location
Third World
You really can't see why? The most obvious ones in every game ever would be accuracy modifiers, AP costs, enemy defenses and enviromental circumstances.

One will still be arguably better than another, so there will be little reason to use the worse one.

Which then leads to the problems of variety.
Of course certain choices will always be better than other choices based on various factors, you have a problem when something is *always* better.

Cooldown-based systems chicken out by not giving a fuck about having choices that are always better, because it just puts an arbitrary restriction on how often you can use it. Tweaking how often doesn't feel OP is a lot easier than taking into account dozens of possible scenarios.

It is why FO2 mid/lategame you never use anything but aimed shot to the eye again.
Posting that makes you seem p. dumb.

That happens because SPECIAL is a complete unbalanced disaster. AP costs, accuracy modifiers, movement, crit damage, etc. Nothing that has a number in that system looks like it had more than 5 minutes of consideration.
 

NotAGolfer

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Dec 1, 2013
Messages
2,527
Location
Land of Bier and Bratwurst
Divinity: Original Sin 2
Problem with that becomes "Why would you ever use a normal attack as opposed to an aimed one or simply chain stunning people.
You really can't see why? The most obvious ones in every game ever would be accuracy modifiers, AP costs, enemy defenses and enviromental circumstances.
Bs. "Every game ever" doesn't have unlimited special abilities. Name only one (CRPG, no PnP stuff) that doesn't either rely on mana/stamina pools, vancian, cooldowns, limited items consumed by the ability or similar restrictions.

Accuracy modifiers:
Don't improve anything because for an ability to be useful and not overly troll you via RNG there has to be a way to make it work reliably. If not you'd have to make the combat less deadly or just grin smugly and say "git gud scrub".
A game with combat as deadly as Underrail where you can't screw the odds in your favor would be too volatile to be fun. It would be just as dumb as playing a game of dice, but as frequent as savescumming is in RNG heavy games it seems there are enough people who enjoy even that shit.

AP costs: Already in. And on itself it doesn't improve anything either. To make special abilities actually stand out there have to be situations where you would always pick them above standard attacks even with higher AP costs. If you could use disabling ability 1 without any other restrictions you would use the same boring disable -> hack to pieces with standard attacks sequence all the time. Great fucking improvement, congrats. So you're back at square one, the game gets too easy.

Enemy defenses: Already in, dumbfuck.

Environmental circumstances: Would be great indeed, see D:OS. But again, alone it isn't restrictive at all. So you will be uber in certain environments making combat boring there but will be locked out of using the neat stuff everywhere else? Wow, great achievement. Then add enviroment dependent special skills for all situations/environments? Congrats, you are back at square one.
 
Last edited:
Self-Ejected

Excidium II

Self-Ejected
Joined
Jun 21, 2015
Messages
1,866,227
Location
Third World
Bs. "Every game ever" doesn't have unlimited special abilities. Name only one (CRPG, no PnP stuff)
Stopped reading here. CRPG devs historically don't care about systems and are simply content ripping off something from last year with minimal playtesting.
 

NotAGolfer

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Dec 1, 2013
Messages
2,527
Location
Land of Bier and Bratwurst
Divinity: Original Sin 2
Aimed shots in FO and FO2 don't count, there is nothing special about them.
For certain builds you always use them, for others you never do.
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom