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Information Unigine CEO Offers Free Engine License for Wasteland 2

FeelTheRads

Arcane
Joined
Apr 18, 2008
Messages
13,716
For example, I lost interest in Fallout 3 the moment I heard it's a FPS (awful of me, I assume)

Yeah, totally a reasonable comparison!

Example, not comparison. But if you want it to be a comparison, here it is:
I expected Fallout 3 to be turn-based isometric when probably it should also have been evident that it wasn't gonna be -> I found out it isn't, so I lost interest.
He expected Wasteland 2 to be "retro" -> he found out it isn't, so he lost interest.

The difference between what InXile does and what Bethesda did is HUGE, but I still don't see losing interest because something you expected isn't there as "BURN IT ALL".
 
Joined
Feb 4, 2012
Messages
218
Location
Pomorze
What's wrong with Unigine?
I saw demo benchmark and while performance was bad,graphics seems nice. Wasteland2 focus on clear graphics,without flashness and gimmicks like shaders on every dust particle ,so performance should be good in comparsion to benchmark.
Implementing rpg mechanics will be as hard as in other non strictly rpg game engine i belive.
 

FeelTheRads

Arcane
Joined
Apr 18, 2008
Messages
13,716
Anyway, yeah, full 2D with animated sprites just isn't that feasible. They require too much work that I'd rather see put in other areas.
 

Brother None

inXile Entertainment
Developer
Joined
Jul 11, 2004
Messages
5,673
Anyway, yeah, full 2D with animated sprites just isn't that feasible. They require too much work that I'd rather see put in other areas.

wtf!

He expected Wasteland 2 to be "retro" -> he found out it isn't, so he lost interest.

Well. Fargo promised it to be a party-based, turn-based, choice-and-consequence-filled old school RPG, and that's what he'll deliver. Will it be good or not? I don't know. But you were apparently not bothered by the news of non-retro things like an isometric camera or flexible UI (unless you missed it, I suppose?), so while it's fine that you feel this way, I don't really get it, I don't see how it not being retro means it isn't a kind of dream game for old-school gamers. Unless you're purely a retro gamer, I suppose?
 

Shannow

Waster of Time
Joined
Sep 15, 2006
Messages
6,386
Location
Finnegan's Wake
BN, take a chill pill. You were quoting me out of context, now you're misunderstanding FtR and you're becoming altogether too defensive. Seems to me arguing with people over at the wasteland forums about this and other stuff like "It's not an RPG if I don't have a main character!" has put you far more on edge than you have to be (and than this thread warrants).

If someone loses interest because of the game not being retro, that's that. No point arguing, even if it's strange. But I won't play eg. over-the-shoulder(or worse: hip) shooters. To someone who doesn't mind that kind of gameplay that'd be strange too. Again: no point in arguing.
 

FeelTheRads

Arcane
Joined
Apr 18, 2008
Messages
13,716

Wtf what? It wasn't a reply to that guy above me... just to the topic in general.

I don't see how it not being retro means it isn't a kind of dream game for old-school gamers. Unless you're purely a retro gamer, I suppose?

I don't know. Some people have very specific requirements. I don't see anything wrong with that.

By the way, you almost convinced me in that other thread that the high tier personalized crap won't be "in your face" so if I end up backing this game I'll hold you responsible if I find any "THIS IS A STATUE OF A GUY WHO'S MUCH BETTER THAN YOU CAUSE HE DONATED THOUSANDS LOL" stuff.
 

Brother None

inXile Entertainment
Developer
Joined
Jul 11, 2004
Messages
5,673
BN, take a chill pill.

NO FUCK YOU.

You were quoting me out of context

Was I? Sorry. I was just clarifying my own point, really.



Wtf what?

wtf why have you been arguing with me when you agree 2D animated sprites aren't feasible?

I don't know. Some people have very specific requirements. I don't see anything wrong with that.

Nor do I, but I'd like to be able to understand them, and I don't really understand this. Again, if you only play retro games, fine, but this isn't retro-Wasteland, it'll be much more similar to Fallout and learn from other TB RPGs and tactical games of the 90s in many ways. I thought that was...a good thing? And clear from day 1?

By the way, you almost convinced me in that other thread that the high tier personalized crap won't be "in your face" so if I end up backing this game I'll hold you responsible if I find any "THIS IS A STATUE OF A GUY WHO'S MUCH BETTER THAN YOU CAUSE HE DONATED THOUSANDS LOL" stuff.

Cool. If it's obnoxious I'll join you in griping about it. I think there's enough ways to implement it without being obnoxious, even if you do end up upsetting some people who expected total ego-fellatio. Hell, I suggested "maybe Americanized names would be a good idea" on the WL2 forum once and people were already all "wtf no I WANT MY NAME". That's people for you.
 

FeelTheRads

Arcane
Joined
Apr 18, 2008
Messages
13,716
wtf why have you been arguing with me when you agree 2D animated sprites aren't feasible?

Sister None, you mistake me for someone else. Or is my English really that bad?
I haven't argued for 2D. I argued that you can lose interest if there's something you don't like and that it's not "BURN IT ALL". And yes, that includes stuff that isn't feasible. There were plenty of people arguing that isometric turn-based wasn't feasible for Fallout 3. And if you consider their scope for the game (that is: MAKE MILLIONS NOW PLZ), it wasn't. But why the fuck would I care, if I'm not getting the game I want? In the same way Surf Solar might not give a shit if that's not feasible for Wasteland 2 if that's the game he wants.

As for me regarding W2, I'm perfectly fine with 3D isometric. Can't say I wouldn't have liked a completely retro one, though, including the combat system.
 

Brother None

inXile Entertainment
Developer
Joined
Jul 11, 2004
Messages
5,673
Sister None, you mistake me for someone else.

Oh, so I did, confused you with Surf Solar. Probably since it was one continuous discussion. Sorry about that. Disregard that subthread then, it was my confusion.

I'd still be curious to know why it not being retro makes Surf Solar (or others) lose interest, though. Not because I don't think it's their good right, obviously I agree with everyone that it is their good right, nor do I want to "debate" with anyone how to spend their money, but I am curious to understand it.
 

Pegultagol

Erudite
Joined
Feb 4, 2005
Messages
1,183
Location
General Gaming
I wonder whether the 'Silent Storm' engine can possibly be entertained, it was built for turn based tactical gameplay and supports highly destructive environment. Also has a history of being modded to support games such as Heroes of Might and Magic V, cross platform with Mac. I know it is far unlikely chance, but Silent Storm came to mind when I envisioned some of the scenarios possible within WL2.
 
Joined
Apr 2, 2010
Messages
7,428
Location
Villainville
MCA
I saw demo benchmark and while performance was bad

That's all you need to know about it. A demo that performs like crap.

graphics seems nice.

The same graphics will look nice in near any engine.

Wasteland2 focus on clear graphics,without flashness and gimmicks like shaders on every dust particle ,so performance should be good in comparsion to benchmark.

Shaders have become a fundamental part of graphics. "Flashiness" and "gimmicks" don't nearly have everything to do with it. A game can look plain and subtle and good while running on a hard-drug cocktail of shaders. Less so in an isometric type game but still.
 
Joined
Mar 13, 2012
Messages
3,438
Location
Lost Hills bunker
Temple of Elemental Evil is isometric 3D... I fail to see a problem?

Problem? Graphics in that *gasp*... 3D game are fuckin' gorgeous and perspective is almost identical to all the beloved retro 2D games. Sure, I want a 2D Wasteland more than 3D, but it certainly won't make me loose interest just because it isn't made exactly like games 10 years ago (graphicaly wise). Can't wait to see screenshots of Wasteland 2 so all these faggots can shut the fuck up and cry because they haven't supported that gem of a beautiful game (and missed the opportunity to get it for less money). :smug:
 

Jaesun

Fabulous Ex-Moderator
Patron
Joined
May 14, 2004
Messages
37,241
Location
Seattle, WA USA
MCA
Temple of Elemental Evil is isometric 3D... I fail to see a problem?

Problem? Graphics in that *gasp*... 3D game are fuckin' gorgeous and perspective is almost identical to all the beloved retro 2D games. Sure, I want a 2D Wasteland more than 3D, but it certainly won't make me loose interest just because it isn't made exactly like games 10 years ago (graphicaly wise). Can't wait to see screenshots of Wasteland 2 so all these faggots can shut the fuck up and cry because they haven't supported that gem of a beautiful game (and get it for less money). :smug:

Yeah I pretty much expect to see Wasteland 2 look like ToEE but in an Apocalyptic setting. :RAGING BONER:

Probably similar to the PA game Troika were working on, that no Publisher would fund.....
 
Joined
Mar 13, 2012
Messages
3,438
Location
Lost Hills bunker
Temple of Elemental Evil is isometric 3D... I fail to see a problem?

Problem? Graphics in that *gasp*... 3D game are fuckin' gorgeous and perspective is almost identical to all the beloved retro 2D games. Sure, I want a 2D Wasteland more than 3D, but it certainly won't make me loose interest just because it isn't made exactly like games 10 years ago (graphicaly wise). Can't wait to see screenshots of Wasteland 2 so all these faggots can shut the fuck up and cry because they haven't supported that gem of a beautiful game (and get it for less money). :smug:

Yeah I pretty much expect to see Wasteland 2 look like ToEE but in an Apocalyptic setting. :RAGING BONER:

Probably similar to the PA game Troika were working on, that no Publisher would fund.....

Oh god stop. :Jizz everywhere: :smug:
 

Temaperacl

Erudite
Joined
Oct 22, 2002
Messages
193
[...] can't mod it [...]
This has nothing to do with 2D vs 3D
Yes it does.

It's very easy to change a texture map. It's a nightmare to make a new sprite
You still can allow and create mods in a 2D engine. The amount and type of work is just different for art-reliant modifications. I can't comment on the difficulty of creating 2D vs 3D art assets since I can't do either well if I am doing them by hand [That is, unless I can work out the mathematical models for what I want].

, and if you want to show each weapon or piece of clothing it means even more work.
Depends on the method for the weapon-clothing usage. If every sprite includes the weapon and/or clothing, then it would be alot of work, but a 2D system could just use overlay sprites for weapons/clothing which would give you that for "free".

[Edit: Any argument for a 2D engine applies equally to a 3D engine using 2D sprites, of course.]
 

Temaperacl

Erudite
Joined
Oct 22, 2002
Messages
193
It's just not practical to spend that much effort. Technically anyone can spend a million hours making an all new look for a 2D engine but no one ever will. And if you can't even accomplish that may as well forget about modding the dialog and quests.
First, the dialogue and quest scripting is completely different from the art assets. It is entirely possible to have the skills to do dialogue and quests without having the skills to make new art.

That's always a bitch in any game, and if you can't make even minor changes to the looks no one is going to bother.
You are arguing that there is no point in making a mod if it doesn't have new artwork?

Just go to fan made fallout's old boards and see how moddable 2D games are.
Good choice. I was slightly involved with FMF so I do have some knowledge on how the modding of that went. And our problem was never artwork - I think most of our artists were working with 2D renders of 3D models, but getting that art into the game was never a problem with (there are only two that I remember that had significant issues - one was a palette issue that required the artist to regenerate a slightly different pic and the other was a sprite-size and overlap issue that was handled by a mix of sprite cutting and object flag settings.). The problem with FMF was mainly contributer dedication and time effort and was focused in two main areas:

A) Writing - We had some good writers, but there was alot to do and there were not enough editors and reviewers for the writers to get timely feedback.
B) Scripting - We had a small pool of scripters and they tended to disappear or not spend the time needed to get the assets into the game (The latter was the category I fell into, for various reasons).

On a side note, one of the big pains we had with the engine was the amount of game logic that was hardcoded into the engine - fun to figure out, but a pain to replace across the different variations of the engine. Mapping was a pain, but not nearly as big a barrier to our work as the two items I listed above.

DU could (but probably doesn't want to remember it in order to) expand on that or correct me if I misspoke, but Art-related issues were probably the least of our problems with FMF. If one of the artists can speak to it, they can comment on what problems they had with making art, but whatever they were, our artists handled most of them well enough to be invisible to the rest of us.

Or look at arcanum. There's a tile based editor but it takes forever to make a location, takes ten times forever to make a character, ten times that a character with all new weapons, and then you still need to make quests and stuff. Aside from weapons rebalancing mod there's not one mod worth bothering with even though some people put a ton of effort into it.
Can't speak to Arcanum - never did any work on that one. Your argument is still that modding is a pain and there aren't good mods. You haven't given any evidence that the reason for this is because they were 2D.
 

FeelTheRads

Arcane
Joined
Apr 18, 2008
Messages
13,716
One could argue that if it's easier to do people won't give up so easily. I've done animated sprites for commercial games and you get to hate them REALLY fast. And they weren't even very complex stuff.
It's just a supposition on my part, though.

But, the point with W2, I think, is that 3D is really faster to do and easier to work with. And I'd prefer they put more work in the other areas than in sprites.
 

FeelTheRads

Arcane
Joined
Apr 18, 2008
Messages
13,716
TOEE had pre-rendered backgrounds. From what Brian Fargo said, I don't think they'd go that way.
Similar to the PA Troika game or, as someone previously suggested, to Silent Storm would be good.
 

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