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Decline Valve killed Steam Spy but it's gradually coming back

ColonelTeacup

Liturgist
Joined
Mar 19, 2017
Messages
1,433
That's correct but still .. some people are completely nuts. During my time in The Hunter there was a guy (well actually there were more like him) who had been playing every single day since the game came out, and if you looked at the logs, he normally started at 9:00h and stopped at 23:00h. As can be expected he was usually at the top of the HunterScore. Then 2 years ago they deleted his account, no one ever learned why (he probably used exploits which is a valid reason for a ban in the retarded TOS) and you know what he did? He started a new account and built up his HunterScore from 0 and had overtaken me after a month.
There is a lot of crazy people out there. I can't understand why people waste their life playing a single game for 12 hours a day. I have wasted a lot of time playing all kind of games,but i do like to go out,do some work and have a few drinks with bunch of friends. For me such people are no better than vegetables.
Because some of us work long hours and want to enjoy videogames when life and the husband aren't around.
You are a woman....
:updatedmytxt:
I am not talking about playing games,i do it all the time. I am talking about playing boring mmos,collecting single flower to make shitty potion and to sell it a bunch of loosers.
Are you sure?
 

fantadomat

Arcane
Edgy Vatnik Wumao
Joined
Jun 2, 2017
Messages
37,165
Location
Bulgaria
That's correct but still .. some people are completely nuts. During my time in The Hunter there was a guy (well actually there were more like him) who had been playing every single day since the game came out, and if you looked at the logs, he normally started at 9:00h and stopped at 23:00h. As can be expected he was usually at the top of the HunterScore. Then 2 years ago they deleted his account, no one ever learned why (he probably used exploits which is a valid reason for a ban in the retarded TOS) and you know what he did? He started a new account and built up his HunterScore from 0 and had overtaken me after a month.
There is a lot of crazy people out there. I can't understand why people waste their life playing a single game for 12 hours a day. I have wasted a lot of time playing all kind of games,but i do like to go out,do some work and have a few drinks with bunch of friends. For me such people are no better than vegetables.
Because some of us work long hours and want to enjoy videogames when life and the husband aren't around.
You are a woman....
:updatedmytxt:
I am not talking about playing games,i do it all the time. I am talking about playing boring mmos,collecting single flower to make shitty potion and to sell it a bunch of loosers.
Are you sure?
I do like a little bit of gamble. It helps keep the edge sharp.
 

Murk

Arcane
Joined
Jan 17, 2008
Messages
13,459
Tangentially related, the data protection law the EU is passing seems to be making quite a ripple with games that operate online (not just MMOs).
 

Deflowerer

Arcane
Joined
May 22, 2013
Messages
2,053
Neural network, AI, machine learning and soon SteamSpy Coin.

An algorithm which works better for smaller samples is interesting. What's the logic behind it?

Statistics is a very complicated topic, those who ever had to deal with it know it's almost impossible to understand. The gist is: if you know the invariants in a system, for example that the sum of all angles in a triangle = 180 degrees, it's possible to calculate the accuracy of random measurements and also to improve the accuracy with some confidence. This can help when you have only a small sample and that's basically all I understood :lol:. If you have a really large sample of measurements you cannot improve the measurements much more, but the smaller the sample = the more random the values are.

But don't ask how it is done unless you are prepared to deal with equation systems of 18x18 matrixes of second order derivatives and sheeet.

I am willing to deal with those, go ahead.
 

Tacgnol

Shitlord
Patron
Joined
Oct 12, 2010
Messages
1,871,746
Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Grab the Codex by the pussy RPG Wokedex Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath I helped put crap in Monomyth
Tangentially related, the data protection law the EU is passing seems to be making quite a ripple with games that operate online (not just MMOs).

Mostly due to fear mongering and confusion. Most GDPR requirements are relatively easy to comply with. We've been having to prepare for it at work, most of it is just common sense changes.

I did see a load of amusing butthurt on Reddit over Ragnarok online closing its servers to Europe because the devs didn't want to comply with the new rules.
 

Murk

Arcane
Joined
Jan 17, 2008
Messages
13,459
I'm not versed on the law, so I'm not sure how clear the regulations are and so what is the margin of "could be hit with fine". Supposedly it's a pretty hefty one, though I'm a little unclear how the EU would plan to fine a company that isn't located in its sovereign borders.
 

Tacgnol

Shitlord
Patron
Joined
Oct 12, 2010
Messages
1,871,746
Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Grab the Codex by the pussy RPG Wokedex Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath I helped put crap in Monomyth
I'm not versed on the law, so I'm not sure how clear the regulations are and so what is the margin of "could be hit with fine". Supposedly it's a pretty hefty one, though I'm a little unclear how the EU would plan to fine a company that isn't located in its sovereign borders.

I would guess the fines will be saved for the biggest violators, most likely people that try to cover up data breaches or lie about how data is used.

Most of the changes aren't that big departures from pre-existing data protection laws in most European countries, big difference is the penalties are actually slightly bigger than a slap on the wrist now.
 

ColonelTeacup

Liturgist
Joined
Mar 19, 2017
Messages
1,433
That's correct but still .. some people are completely nuts. During my time in The Hunter there was a guy (well actually there were more like him) who had been playing every single day since the game came out, and if you looked at the logs, he normally started at 9:00h and stopped at 23:00h. As can be expected he was usually at the top of the HunterScore. Then 2 years ago they deleted his account, no one ever learned why (he probably used exploits which is a valid reason for a ban in the retarded TOS) and you know what he did? He started a new account and built up his HunterScore from 0 and had overtaken me after a month.
There is a lot of crazy people out there. I can't understand why people waste their life playing a single game for 12 hours a day. I have wasted a lot of time playing all kind of games,but i do like to go out,do some work and have a few drinks with bunch of friends. For me such people are no better than vegetables.
Because some of us work long hours and want to enjoy videogames when life and the husband aren't around.
You are a woman....
:updatedmytxt:
I am not talking about playing games,i do it all the time. I am talking about playing boring mmos,collecting single flower to make shitty potion and to sell it a bunch of loosers.
Are you sure?
I do like a little bit of gamble. It helps keep the edge sharp.
Alright, make your roll then.
 

Murk

Arcane
Joined
Jan 17, 2008
Messages
13,459
I'm not versed on the law, so I'm not sure how clear the regulations are and so what is the margin of "could be hit with fine". Supposedly it's a pretty hefty one, though I'm a little unclear how the EU would plan to fine a company that isn't located in its sovereign borders.
how do you think kwa is operating?

Dunno what you mean, in terms of what kwa's laws state regarding privacy or the changes kwa companies are making?
 

fantadomat

Arcane
Edgy Vatnik Wumao
Joined
Jun 2, 2017
Messages
37,165
Location
Bulgaria
That's correct but still .. some people are completely nuts. During my time in The Hunter there was a guy (well actually there were more like him) who had been playing every single day since the game came out, and if you looked at the logs, he normally started at 9:00h and stopped at 23:00h. As can be expected he was usually at the top of the HunterScore. Then 2 years ago they deleted his account, no one ever learned why (he probably used exploits which is a valid reason for a ban in the retarded TOS) and you know what he did? He started a new account and built up his HunterScore from 0 and had overtaken me after a month.
There is a lot of crazy people out there. I can't understand why people waste their life playing a single game for 12 hours a day. I have wasted a lot of time playing all kind of games,but i do like to go out,do some work and have a few drinks with bunch of friends. For me such people are no better than vegetables.
Because some of us work long hours and want to enjoy videogames when life and the husband aren't around.
You are a woman....
:updatedmytxt:
I am not talking about playing games,i do it all the time. I am talking about playing boring mmos,collecting single flower to make shitty potion and to sell it a bunch of loosers.
Are you sure?
I do like a little bit of gamble. It helps keep the edge sharp.
Alright, make your roll then.
iroll20s
 

Murk

Arcane
Joined
Jan 17, 2008
Messages
13,459
I'm not versed on the law, so I'm not sure how clear the regulations are and so what is the margin of "could be hit with fine". Supposedly it's a pretty hefty one, though I'm a little unclear how the EU would plan to fine a company that isn't located in its sovereign borders.
how do you think kwa is operating?

Dunno what you mean, in terms of what kwa's laws state regarding privacy or the changes kwa companies are making?
as in do you think that kwa isnt fining companies/banks that do not operate within its borders?

I see, I asked the wrong question initially. Let me reword:

What does EU do if a European uses a VPN to access an american business that operates internationally that specifically bans Europeans. What if the service is open to Europeans, but only a specific version -- and using a VPN they get access to the non-European version which does violate the new laws?

I realize there is probably wording for these situations, but digital communication and trade can get messy, I'm more speculating how some of the vague definitions will result in some very strange fines for services that didn't actually do anything "wrong".
 
Last edited:

agris

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Apr 16, 2004
Messages
6,810
Neural network, AI, machine learning and soon SteamSpy Coin.

An algorithm which works better for smaller samples is interesting. What's the logic behind it?

A bit of a guess, but I believe this can happen when you have roughly the same number of samples for two different games. Machine learning works by training, on both positive and negative results. He can use his data sets from before the privacy changes to check results against, as he samples from the current set of users whose privacy settings allow him to. For the python machine learning libs that I'm aware of, usually you train your algorithm against 500 to 1000 discrete tests. For small titles, this represents a much greater percentage of owners than for large titles like Fallout 4, so your accuracy is improved because your training data set encompassed a greater percentage of the actual data (i.e. the population).
 

J1M

Arcane
Joined
May 14, 2008
Messages
14,626
I'm not versed on the law, so I'm not sure how clear the regulations are and so what is the margin of "could be hit with fine". Supposedly it's a pretty hefty one, though I'm a little unclear how the EU would plan to fine a company that isn't located in its sovereign borders.
The fine is 4% of annual worldwide revenue.

Requirements are basically to not store private info unencrypted, to tell users what data you have on them, and to purge that data if asked.

They dont care about 6 people using a website with VPN. But they will block the kind of business that is profitable if you have outstanding fines.

Jim
 

Infinitron

I post news
Staff Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2011
Messages
97,443
Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Ah, finally a proper update: https://galyonk.in/whats-going-on-with-steam-spy-deed5d699233

What’s going on with Steam Spy?
After multiple websites reported that Steam Spy is dead, I think it is time to discuss what is actually going on.

What happened?
As you might know, on 11th of April, 2018 Valve has made changes to their Steam Web API, removing owned games from user’s information, unless they actively opt-in.

Many people, myself included, at first attributed that change to GDPR compliance, but it doesn’t seem to be the case. Valve still exposes your real name, achievements, groups, screenshots, and friends by default and still hasn’t updated their EULA to comply with GDPR. It doesn’t mean they won’t, but the API change was definitely not caused by that.

Steam Spy used to rely on polling user information through that API. Naturally, the old algorithm stopped working, and while I was busy creating a new one, some press rushed to pronounce the site dead.

To make matters worse, Steam also changed their Store API, making it useless. Store API contained basic information about games on Steam — prices, release dates, genres and so on. Steam Spy (as many other sites) relied on that as well. Like the previous change, this one wasn’t caused by GDPR compliance either — it’s hard to imagine Valve protecting the store’s privacy.

What did Valve say?
Nothing, as usual.

I wrote a proposal to Valve that would still let Steam Spy run using the old algorithm without exposing any personal data. I’ve got a confirmation from Tom Giardino that they’ve received my message, but that was it.

To be honest, that was already more than they ever said to me before.

Why keep it running?
To coincide with these two blows from Valve, we experienced some major workload at my day job. The game I’m working on was down for an extended period of time, and I didn’t have time to work on Steam Spy.

However, during that period I received over two hundred emails and messages from developers telling me how Steam Spy improved their lives. There was an indie company from Berlin that managed to secure financing from the government for their niche title because they had the data to prove that this niche is big enough. The title got released and succeeded.

Then there was a successful mid-sized publisher that entered the business after it was able to see which games are selling and which don’t.

And then there were your usual stories of developers being able to navigate the space because they knew how the market behaves now.

So, after a very stressful week at my day job I decided to try a couple of new things with Steam Spy.

How does Steam Spy work now?
In my previous life almost 15 years ago I was writing a Ph.D. thesis on predicting economic outcomes based on accidental data that might be irrelevant to the predicted results using machine learning.

The trick with machine learning algorithms is they’re fantastic at solving categorization problems (“Is this a man or a cat?”) but suck at regression problems (“Product A sold 10,000 copies, B — 20,000, how much did C sell?”). The idea is that a specially prepared data with a modified algorithm can work a bit better for problems like that.

I never finished that Ph.D. (was poor as a church mouse and couldn’t afford that), but now with the recent changes to Steam API, I decided to give it a try. Thanks to the power of the Internet, I have a ton of coincidental data on games, and most of it doesn’t come from Steam.

Well, guess what, it kinda works!

Frostpunk devs just announced that the game sold 250,000 copies and the new algorithm estimated it at 252,000 copies. Pretty close, right?

Does everything work like before?
Unfortunately, no.

I’m still rewriting the site to move to the new math model. Many features of the site are still unavailable, but most of them will be coming back.
For example, I’ve temporarily removed country stats. I wasn’t happy with them before, and now is a good chance to rework it into something more usable.

On the other hand, the basic features (the number of owners, playtime distribution, related games) are working fine already. API is also back, although in a somewhat limited form.

How accurate is the new Steam Spy?
Not very accurate, to be honest.

I have the data for around 70 games from different developers, and for 90% of them, the new Steam Spy is within 10% margin of error. But I also saw some crazy outliers, where the difference between the estimates and the real data could be fivefold.

What’s with the new access rights?
You might’ve noticed that Steam Spy now displays the number of owners as a range and doesn’t display any graphs to the general audience. Patreon backersstill have the access to more precise estimates and the graphs, like before.

I did that because I’m still not entirely happy with my new algorithm and its precision, and also because a lot of things on Steam Spy are still broken. I do believe in giving everyone the access to the essential information, but until I fix everything, Steam Spy will be semi-closed to the general audience.

What’s next?
I will keep on iterating the new algorithm while slowly bringing back the core functions of Steam Spy.

It will take some time and it’s still possible that Valve will make another move to shut down the service, but until that happens, Steam Spy will continue to operate.
 

Infinitron

I post news
Staff Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2011
Messages
97,443
Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth


 
Last edited:

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