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KickStarter Vigilantes: neo-noir, turn based tactical RPG

Discussion in 'General RPG Discussion' started by Timeslip, Aug 27, 2016.

  1. ushas Savant

    ushas
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    Or maybe we accidentally play on the highest :negative:

    No worries, if enjoying that fear of few unlucky shots:) Attacking lower danger districts for a while sounds like a good plan, worked for me. Gym provides bonus to Fleetness and Prowess. CC skill also contributes to defense against melee, so not wasted neither. If you invested into his Prowess, can also be good grenadier. I'm doing silly things like making Sam utility/crafter and no firing range, still somehow surviving. Albeit also had to reorient melee guys. Have you upgraded armours?
     
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  2. Eyestabber Arcane Patron

    Eyestabber
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    Except deciding to make Arcadi into the Leader isn't much of a decision and anyone can see that clear as day. Because you don't have a non-stupid alternative. Let's go down memory lane on other games that also feature the "party leader" archetype. They can be split into two groups:

    - Games that force the main player into the leader role (eg: Fallout 2, Dungeon Rats)
    - Games that let you choose whoever you want (eg Wasteland 2, Jagged Alliance 2)

    Notice a pattern? Only games that don't feature a "player avatar" let you pick whoever you want as party leader. Why? In order to avoid this:

    He is right, you know? A "leader build" can't be implemented as a "choice" in a game that features a player avatar, lest it becomes (yet another) half-assed choice. That's the crux of the issue. In Fallout 2 you're the leader, period. You just have to choose whether you want to be a competent leader with tons of followers (but limited combat efficiency) or a crappy one, but capable of dealing with fights on his own. In Jagged Alliance the player is "laptop guy", so he has the choice to hire an experienced (but expensive) leader, or a cheaper but less effective one or not bother with a leader at all or maybe change his mind later. All these are valid and meaningful choices that make JA2 great.

    In Vigilantes you have a "leader build" but the choice behind it is offensively trivial: "Do I want to make Arcadi my leader or do I want be a retard?". That's it. Every other character starts with a Lead score of 3, you have no reason to choose them other than being retarded. That's the core issue of every single problem with the game: you people are trying to mimic games you have very little understanding of and seem to think having a lot of options automatically translates into "having a lot of choices". No, it doesn't. You people clearly designed the game with certain choices in mind and never stopped to consider whether the alternatives are viable/fun, you just ensured alternatives existed and called it a day.

    If I had to sum all my criticism of the game in one sentence it would be "Vigilantes has a lot of good parts, but they just don't come together to form a coherent whole". You offer the player an ice cream tray with a ton of variety, but one of the flavors is a very tasty "vanilla" and the others are "rocks", "spiders", "cow excrement", "slightly used condoms" and so on. Eh...it was worth the price tag ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
     
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  3. HoboForEternity In every buttons you press Patron

    HoboForEternity
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    Abandoned my hard boiled playtrough because they are starting to get too tough, it is impossible to win any fight above green thing and defeat rackets or liutenants.

    I also have pretty unoptimized build for my character and the progression. That was a good lesson tho, starting anew on vigilante, then hard boiles again, and if bugfinder still broken by then, i will try suicide in hero mode
     
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  4. Slimu Scholar Patron

    Slimu
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    Divinity: Original Sin 2 Pathfinder: Kingmaker
    I encountered a nasty bug where I couldn't end the turn with a character after using all it's APs. It happed twice, and couldn't recover from it. I tried both the shortcut key and the interface button; the other buttons from the GUI seemed to be working correctly.
     
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  5. Timeslip Timeslip Softworks Patron Developer

    Timeslip
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    Hey just wanted to drop in. Haven't been around much over past few days, working on fixes.
     
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  6. Dickie Arcane

    Dickie
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    How are people's levels so low? I just loaded up my hard boiled save to check, and it's July 12, and Sam is level 16.
     
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  7. Timeslip Timeslip Softworks Patron Developer

    Timeslip
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    Can you give me some more detail on this? There is a bug that seems to occur very rarely if you use a medkit and that consumes the last AP. Unfortunately after several hours of trying to recreate it, have been unable to.
     
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  8. ushas Savant

    ushas
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    Unless it's different issue, I've encountered this with medkits as well as with grenades (though could be two problems), and a kind of out of habit saved the logs with errors. Can fetch it out if you need it. Could it have something to do with using several countable items in a row when # should reach 0? Also it locked the mouse input.
     
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  9. ushas Savant

    ushas
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    That's interesting. What level are gangs?
     
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  10. Dickie Arcane

    Dickie
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    6/6/7 with equipment levels 2/1/3. The still-living lieutenants are 10-11 and the bosses are 12-13.

    Has anyone tried hero difficulty? Hoping to check it out soon but can't play at the moment.
     
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  11. Jedi Master Radek Arcane

    Jedi Master Radek
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    Spend too much time healing and that's what happens. That's time management aspect of the game.
     
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  12. ushas Savant

    ushas
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    Yeah, nice to see how much it can matter. Also some crafting time here. Haven't checked Hero yet.


    The cited part was about stat- vs. skill-gating, as you aren't talking about Arcadi rising a stat to unlock perks versus unlocking them as he levels up, am assuming it's in response to the three options (Sam, Arcadi, not bother). In that case, feel free to call it retarded, no hard feelings, but in my experience of both, Sam could be better early/mid leader. A few reasons already mentioned before, can add a few numbers if wish. Btw. nobody says you should pick whatever. All six allies are narrowed towards some areas, not so optimal to go into others.

    Not judging your perceptions, guys, perhaps an existence of possibility of a tactical mission leader other than Sam really weirds people off, MC-centered and such. Although, haven't thought of him as a player avatar (as in F2), more like the third person. Name is given. On the other hand, there is 'you' in dialogue descriptions, so dunno.

    Anyway, taking things as they are, was simply just disputing the claim that we have to take Arcadi into assault as a leader. Guys who want it to be the main character can feel demoralized. Yeah, perception is powerful, you see +3 in Leadership, perk. Except there are many other factors, so imo Sam as a leader build is quite good.

    Being practical here, but, of course, would be cool if there is some second in command effect or whatever.
     
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  13. Nutria Savant

    Nutria
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    I figure Sam has to be a great leader, because he's got all these different weirdos suffering from horrible trauma and mental illness, or just total desperation at how disconnected their ideals are from reality, and he manages to get them to work together. It wouldn't bother me except that this is a game where I actually read the text and don't just skip through it.

    Who should I give the shotgun to? I've been having Arcadi specialize in it, but not for any particular reason except that he's the odd man out where everyone else has a specific responsibility.
     
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  14. Slimu Scholar Patron

    Slimu
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    Divinity: Original Sin 2 Pathfinder: Kingmaker
    I think the problem appeared both times after firing a pistol. I noticed that when the problem manifested, the APs used when firing weren't removed (remained colored yellow). Moving the mouse cursor around the screen didn't marked them as used (red color). Like I previously said, the buttons from the lower left side of the screen seemed to be aware of the fact that I didn't have any APs left (couldn't enter overwatch). The bugs appeared after playing more than 10h.
     
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  15. zeitgeist Augur

    zeitgeist
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    The first thing I noticed as an issue with the game is the character creation. Think of it from the perspective of someone who doesn't know anything about the game. The main character's portrait has a gun, right? So when faced with a choice of melee and ranged, you would logically choose ranged. Then you would think "this is my main character, clearly he'll need some leadership to actually lead the gang, I guess this isn't much but he'll probably get a chance to improve it later". And then when you actually entered the game, the first character you'll stumble upon will be an almost identical copy of your main character, only better.

    This is something that happens in a lot of party based games (the issue with your PC being an inferior copy of the first few NPCs you encounter), and I actually thought I was going to avoid it by making the PC into what I thought the game designers envisioned for him (and what made sense).
     
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  16. ushas Savant

    ushas
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    Huh, is it always Arcadi the first one to meet?
    I recall, in the past it was random.

    Trying to think of a game with fully customizable PC & predefined allies where we aren't in danger of meeting somebody similar... How would one solve it without removing our free will to screw the PC over?

    Comes to mind, sometimes the main character gets a special mechanic or boost, but I'm not fan when some superstar PC ends up more powerful than all friends combined. In Vigilantes, Sam is one level higher than others for the rest of the game. Combined with minmaxing he can be technically better, although doesn't feel overpowered, neither a much special.

    Edit - oh, allies have one stat point more than Sam.
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2018
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  17. Risewild Savant

    Risewild
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    I think Arcadi was the third ally I got in this game I am playing.
    I can't remember if the first was Ray or Emilia, but Arcadi only appeared for me after those two.
     
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  18. Eyestabber Arcane Patron

    Eyestabber
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    What game are you people playing? Arcadi is the russian dude and he is part of the tutorial. He is driving a truck and is accosted by the Mafia. At least that's what I got on the release version of the game, can't speak for early access players.

    As for the problem zeitergeist mentioned: it's a problem with games that force NPCs into the player in general. It doesn't really have a solution, but it can be mitigated to an extent by having a larger pool of available characters. Honestly? I'm more of a "full party creation" guy, because I'll always come up with weird and awesome build that would totally work if only I could have a different character to fill X role instead of crappy NPC that doesn't really do exactly what I want him to do.

    An elegant and low budget solution can be found on Expeditions: Viking where you have a handful of developer designed and (partially) voiced NPCs while also being able to hire "mercenaries" aka custom player made characters to fill whichever role you intend to ditch the Dev-NPC.
     
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  19. Taka-Haradin puolipeikko Arcane

    Taka-Haradin puolipeikko
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    Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Bubbles In Memoria
    During early access game randomized which ally encounter you got 1st.

    hmmm.
    Checked from my save before you encounter companions. It always gives you Arcadi. 10 times out of 10.
     
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  20. Timeslip Timeslip Softworks Patron Developer

    Timeslip
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    Appreciate the feedback. On the chin is fine :) Like anything, Vigilantes is open to interpretation, but it is worth keeping the mind that it has been in development since 2014. Concerning overall inspiration for setting, I'd point more to the fictional worlds of detective novels, 80s & 90s action movies, rather than our world. Had considered a gang populated by ambulance drivers who spend their spare time running an animal shelter, but it offended a lot of people in the focus group, and as you observed, that stuff really cuts into the bottom line. On a serious note, the faction choice mostly came down to making them different, and the ones which offered the most potential for building encounters around

    I agree that making the factions oppose one another would have been interesting. It would also have required significant adjustments to AI and balance, probably to the tune of several months of extra development. It's likely that the difference in most cases between a game that gets finished and yet another EA/Kickstarter that doesn't make it over the line is maintaining a degree of control over scope. The AI tries to pick moves which result in the most damage to the player team, and has to process a lot of data to do this. It doesn't always make moves that seem intuitive/tactical, and it's an area I'd hope to revise in a future game.

    Utility was never intended as a core skill. I think it has it's place for medics though, by increasing medicine. It has the biggest impact on skills of all stats and allows the equipping of additional items. I'm not suggesting you should max utility, but if you can gain an extra slot by adding an extra point (or getting a bonus point from a facility) it will be worthwhile in some cases. Leadership contributes to presence skill, which is the social skill. In general, I agree that the stats for utility and leadership could do with being tweaked and added to. This will happen. Worth pointing out that Arcadi's perk does not give 2x free passes to each team member, but rather 2 total. If it weren't for burst weapons, which could render the perk useless, this would have been 1. I disagree that Arcadi is forced on the player. I've played hard boiled several times with Sam as the leader/limited investment in presence, without perceptible change to game difficulty.

    I agree the game would benefit from better feedback to the player. This is something I'll work on.
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2018
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  21. Timeslip Timeslip Softworks Patron Developer

    Timeslip
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    Hey Nortar. I agree, extra feedback to the player will be a priority over the next few updates.
     
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  22. Timeslip Timeslip Softworks Patron Developer

    Timeslip
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    Hey Nutria. The way I see this is that Sam is the driving force behind the group, making the big decisions on what to do, and is also the glue that holds the team together. Combat is one dimension of the group's activities, and if Arcadi is more suiting to guiding the group in combat, it makes sense to delegate that responsibility to him. It's the most obvious example, but in almost all cases, the character with the highest skill will be used - so Edgar will probably take charge of crafting a difficult item, the member with the highest trade will deal with Cuda, the most skilled healer will take care of injuries, etc. - Since you can bring 3 characters with you, and the home team play a much lesser role, it shouldn't have a huge impact.


    I will do this. At present it gives +2/-2 total to stats, depending on relationship level.
     
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  23. Timeslip Timeslip Softworks Patron Developer

    Timeslip
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    Hey Zeitgeist. The illustration wasn't intended to push the player towards a certain build - mostly it is to establish atmosphere. Picking Sam as a leader is viable - you can bring 3x allies and there are 6 in the game, so 3 will play a lesser part. If you build Sam as a leader, Arcadi will likely be one of these. Arcadi will start with 1 less stat point than Sam, and will remain one level lower, and with the disadvantage that you can't allocate starting stats. Granted, Arcadi has a nice perk, but I don't think he's inferior to Sam (depending on how Sam has been built). I'd say just build the main character you want, and pick allies which complement your play style.
     
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  24. Timeslip Timeslip Softworks Patron Developer

    Timeslip
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    None of the allies are better with one weapon or another at the start. Shotgun works fairly well with melee characters who have a little skill in firearms, as it has high accuracy and works best up close.
     
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  25. Taka-Haradin puolipeikko Arcane

    Taka-Haradin puolipeikko
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    Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Bubbles In Memoria
    Shotguns also seem to do more damage to a single target when used on overwatch.
    It should be noted that shotguns don't do firing cone when you OW.
     
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