Interview Vince D. Weller Speaks Truth With RPGNuke

[Raapys]

Yep, CoD and TES. It's a nice fit, actually. The CoD guys are even better though, because they manage to sell even more games with far less changes; they add some maps and weapons with each new game and then call it a job well done. Rinse and repeat for next year. Bethesda actually use several years on a single title, which is a waste.

At any rate, Morrowind was actually quite a success. Not sure how well it did on PC, but it did sell fairly well on the Xbox when they managed to get it out.

 

[Infinitron]

A word of note: you should be careful about making those kinds of statements about games from the 90s. Before widespread Internet, effective marketing and digital distribution, it was much easier for a good, deserving game to fail in the marketplace.

As I understand it, Daggerfall was bug central and barely working.

Yeah, but what does that have to do with "audiences".

Daggerfall nearly made 'em bankrupt so to hell with that audience.

 

[abnaxus]

A rare opportunity to paste Patrick quotes instead of my usual suspect.

Blockbusters like Oblivion may seem to come out of no where, but anyone familiar with Bethesda's history knows that Oblivion comes after a long line of hugely ambitious games that fell short in important areas.
...

From a gameplay and overall quality point of view Oblivion was pretty shitty

This is basically untrue. While Oblivion had a lot of system design issues, their terrible character building and leveling system, for one, overall it was a solid experience. It was well engineered and scoped and while not free of bugs it was polished enough to sell a bajillion copies, and if there is one thing that gamers react to more than design or art direction or story or sound or anything else it is overall polish. Shooting a guy with 5000 arrows before he dies may be pretty shitty, but I'll be damned if those arrows didn't skewer him entertainingly.
...

No. At least, not in that order of priority. Pedigree first, polish second. Dragon Age 2, anyone?

This is true. Keep in mind though, that prior to Oblivion Bethesda only had any pedigree with hardcore gamers, but more casual gamers responded to it in droves anyway. I think we can rule out Oblivion's massive popularity as being a product of Morrowind's smashing popular success.

The game was well marketed as well, but again, marketing isn't shit when the product sucks. Particularly if you don't have a brand that promises enough first-day purchases to make you a hit even if you blow.

The game was, in many ways, a step back from the design (particularly creative design) of Morrowind, but in many ways it was a lot better. You know what precisely zero people liked about Morrowind? Swinging your axe at a guy and being told you missed based on a hidden die roll.

Anyway, I'm not here to defend Oblivion as a paragon of excellent game design, but it did mark the point in Bethesda's production where scope, ambition, and production lined up perfectly and matched the market's desires in such a way as to produce a hit that helped build a brand.

EDIT: In my opinion it's actually critics and hardcore gamers who respond more to pedigree than your average gamer. For years no one but the most serious gamer coudl actually tell you the difference between Bioware and Black Isle and routinely confused the two. People still do. I know lots of (casual adequateness) people who played New Vegas and not one of them knows what Obsidian is. On the other hand, Bioware could probably release a turd in a box and critics would give it high 8s and low 9s while the majority of the gaming comunity responds with apathy (unless the turd has Dragon Age or Mass Effect written on the box, in which case week 1 sales will be good, but that's it).

Each BGS game since Morrowind has had significantly greater sales than the one before it, and it takes talent (both marketing and delivering to the masses what they want) to keep up that kind of momentum. Otherwise everyone would be doing it. But no, it's pretty much just them making these leaps.

What is this from?

 

[Sceptic]

A word of note: you should be careful about making those kinds of statements about games from the 90s. Before widespread Internet, effective marketing and digital distribution, it was much easier for a good, deserving game to fail in the marketplace.

No, the reason he/she/it should be careful with making those kinds of statements is that they're blatantly untrue (not that Roguey talking out of his/her/its ass is anything new). Daggerfall sold so well and Bethesda were so confident of the future of the franchise that they started not one but TWO spinoff series in its wake. Both of those spinoffs bombing hard is what put them in financial dire straights, not Daggerfall (also, Terminator Skynet not doing too well may have had something to do with it). And the game that almost bankrupted them was Morrowind, since they had to cancel everything else and pour all of their resources into it in a last ditch effort to save the company. It did end up working for them, but had Morrowind not been a smash hit Bethesda would've died then and there.

But in any case Roguey's argument is irrelevant since

Morrowind made them a successful company swimming in money, which didn't stop them from ditching that audience and flirting with retards.

Keep in mind though, that prior to Oblivion Bethesda only had any pedigree with hardcore gamers, but more casual gamers responded to it in droves anyway. I think we can rule out Oblivion's massive popularity as being a product of Morrowind's smashing popular success.

Bullshit. In fact he contradicts himself in the same mouthful. Morrowind's popular success was precisely because it went beyond the hardcore gamer and attracted masses of more casual players - there's a reason the Xbox version sold as well as it did. The reason even more casuals responded to Oblivion is because it took Morrowind and stripped out everything that could get in the way of the casual masses' enjoyment - and it's precisely why Oblivion is a shitty game, and it's precisely what VD was pointing out earlier.

 

[Vault Dweller]

A word of note: you should be careful about making those kinds of statements about games from the 90s. Before widespread Internet, effective marketing and digital distribution, it was much easier for a good, deserving game to fail in the marketplace.

As I understand it, Daggerfall was bug central and barely working.

It was buggy (like most ambitious RPGs), but it was and is working just fine.

The rest has been addressed by Sceptic.

 

[Grauken]

The obviously apparent flaw in Morrorwind was the lack of an awesome button. Oblivion tried its best to fix it

 

[AngryKobold]

We did release two demos. A thousand people liked them enough and found them to be playable enough to pre-order the game, paying $30 on average. So, yes, we did prove ourselves and we did deliver something playable. It's an undeniable fact and your low opinion of the game doesn't change it.

We do listen to feedback. It's another undeniable fact. We spent more than 6 months tweaking the game based on the feedback received and released 3 versions, each bringing the game closer to what our core audience wanted to see. So, when you say that we don't listen to feedback, you mean that we don't listen to you, which is a different story.

Every time I see a post like this, certain image appears in my mind. It's Brian Mitsoda with this all greasy hair and obscenic, greasy smile. Can't explain why, must be some kind of autosuggestion. But back to the point.

I'm gonna tell you what is undeniable fact. A thousand preorders for a game where the core gameplay is hop-hopping from one critical skillcheck to another. That's some core audience.

Your broken concept of gameplay has been discussed to fucking death and left intact. But no, I'm not saying anything. After all, it was not crowd funded. It's your game and your waste of time and resources. And you can fuck it up as you please. Seems more a way of avantgarde artist than a marketing guy, but whatever.

 

[zwanzig_zwoelf]

The obviously apparent feature in Morrorwind was being shit. Oblivion tried its best to improve it

 

[Delterius]

To a certain degree, it's true. When I review games, I offer my opinion for people who have similar tastes, not the ultimate judgement. I'm well aware that AoD isn't for everyone and that some people are convinced that it's a bad game. A Bioware fan, for example, might write a negative review and have a point there because the game doesn't deliver for him.

As for Bethesda, what rubs many people the wrong way is that they fucked their core audience twice. Morrowind was a departure from the design established in Daggerfall and Oblivion was a huge departure from the design established in Morrowind. So, we went from a top 10 RPG with depth and ambition to shallow 'moar sales' shit.

Though I thank you for it, you're taking that statement more seriously than I thought you would. I just found the idea of someone spinning your words into a bethesdan popularity argument a bit humorous.

 

[Vault Dweller]

When I review games, I offer my opinion for people who have similar tastes, not the ultimate judgement.

Really? So there is no actual objectively strong flaws in obliblion? or mas deffect series or DA2? Its all a matter of perspective?

If someone just wants to run around killing monsters scaled to his level, Oblivion is a fantastic game.

A Bioware fan, for example, might write a negative review and have a point there because the game doesn't deliver for him.

What the point that may be? How can someone have a "point" when reviewing a game of other genre then he likes then being negative about it because it doesnt play as a game that he likes?

RPG means different things to different people. Some people just want to have a world they can explore (as in running around and looking for nearby dungeons and caves and random encounters). We went too heavy with 'urban intrigue', which isn't everyone's cup of tea.

 

[Kz3r0]

Stop getting trolled by Roguey's copypasta guys, is unbecoming of true Codexers.

And the game that almost bankrupted them was Morrowind, since they had to cancel everything else and pour all of their resources into it in a last ditch effort to save the company. It did end up working for them, but had Morrowind not been a smash hit Bethesda would've died then and there.

So, every Codexer that bought the game back then is partially responsible for Bethesda's existece today?

 

[Roguey]

Yeah, but what does that have to do with "audiences".

What they were making didn't have enough appeal so the scope creep, and thus the audience for that, had to go.

What is this from?

Something Awful.

No, the reason he/she/it should be careful with making those kinds of statements is that they're blatantly untrue (not that Roguey talking out of his/her/its ass is anything new). Daggerfall sold so well and Bethesda were so confident of the future of the franchise that they started not one but TWO spinoff series in its wake. Both of those spinoffs bombing hard is what put them in financial dire straights, not Daggerfall (also, Terminator Skynet not doing too well may have had something to do with it).

Conversssssssely: Daggerfall did so horribly that Bethesda quickly had to SLAM DUNK two action-packed sequels that didn't play at all like Daggerfall to recoup their costs but whoops, didn't work!

This can happen. Piranha Bytes said they didn't even begin to see a profit until the Night of the Raven expansion for Gothic 2.

Bullshit. In fact he contradicts himself in the same mouthful. Morrowind's popular success was precisely because it went beyond the hardcore gamer and attracted masses of more casual players - there's a reason the Xbox version sold as well as it did. The reason even more casuals responded to Oblivion is because it took Morrowind and stripped out everything that could get in the way of the casual masses' enjoyment - and it's precisely why Oblivion is a shitty game, and it's precisely what VD was pointing out earlier.

Here's an anecdote: when Oblivion came out in 2006 I had never heard of Morrowind or the Elder Scrolls even though I've been playing computer and console games since the late 80s. I'm sure there were many more like me.

And some things deserve to get abandoned. Take it away, Josh.

Speaking of Bloodlines and bitterness, some Bloodlines players may bitterly remember trying to fire a gun. Bloodlines tried to faithfully implement something resembling the Storyteller combat system, so you can start out aiming a revolver at a garbage can at point blank range and hitting the wall several feet to the left of your crosshair. Similarly, Morrowind would have you actively swinging a sword through targets and then "missing" according to the rules. It's the execution in this sort of "RPG"/action hybridization that I think winds up creating more disconnection than satisfaction. It puts things partially in player control, but either simulates something in the background (e.g. Bloodlines, Morrowind) or has input/timing/collision issues (Jade Empire, DMoMM) that can make some players (like myself) step back and say, "What the heck?" You feel more in control of the moment-to-moment actions of your character, but the connection drops every time the game defies your expectations.

The focus of what I have been describing is visceral response and connection to action. It doesn't apply only to melee combat, as the gunplay in Bloodlines and Deus Ex shows. It could also apply to stealth, as I have described before. Oblivion's stealth uses a stat to modify your ability to hide in darkness, but the player is still required to actively hide and move from shadow to shadow. It doesn't really "randomly" determine if you are seen or not, as it would in a D&D CRPG. It's pretty deterministic, and the player is in control both of his or her character's actions and how he or she builds that character's stats. It could apply to anything, really. You could have variable jumping heights that are randomized according to an RPG stat. Are players going to be satisfied that sometimes their characters jump 5' and sometimes 8' each time the player presses the jump button? I'm sure some people would be. I just think they are in the minority.

As I suggested, once you start gaining direct control over a character, there are a lot of ways to make it feel bad. I think "Action RPGs" are some of the worst culprits of this, either due to poor execution or an intentional desire to simulate things out of player control and observation. When I play Temple of Elemental Evil and tell my character to swing a sword, if he rolls low, the game has not defied my expectations. It's as pure of a D&D simulation as you can get without a DM, pure Poindexter. When I play Morrowind, press a button, and swing a sword through a guy's head in the middle of a heated combat only to see that I "missed" -- well, I know didn't screw up. A lot more people seemed to enjoy the melee combat in Oblivion than Morrowind, and I don't think it's just because the graphics improved.

I am going to address this specifically. I brought this up in my talk as a specific caveat: I am not advocating turning all RPGs into ones that feature real-time core mechanics.

Let me restate what I wrote earlier in this thread: if a developer is going to make a game with real-time first person shooting mechanics and is going to ask the player to manually aim at their targets, the developer should make that mechanic feel good. Inflated spread doesn't actually make the game easier for anyone; it makes it harder for everyone. Similarly, if a developer is going to make a game with real-time direct-control melee combat, the developer should make that mechanic feel good. Going "halfsies" ? la Morrowind doesn't make the game easier for anyone. You're still manually moving around the target and manually swinging the sword. The difference is that when you hit -- maybe you actually don't!

If you're going to make games like the Gold Box series, IE games, or ToEE, make the visual/audio/text combat feedback clear (which really is the player's window into what's going on for such games) and avoid the pointless reload-fodder of all-or-nothing events like the olde tyme Disintegrate spell I cited earlier.

 

[Vault Dweller]

I'm gonna tell you what is undeniable fact. A thousand preorders for a game where the core gameplay is hop-hopping from one critical skillcheck to another. That's some core audience.

How about 60,000 people who voted for AoD on Steam? Avg top 50 game - 14,709 votes, in case you were wondering.

Your broken concept of gameplay has been discussed to fucking death and left intact.

You don't like it. I got it when you first started bitching about it. I just don't give a fuck.

 

[Infinitron]

Roguey Yes yes, we've all heard the "to-hit rolls in an action RPG are bad" speech. But what else? How else did Oblivion improve on Morrowind? Is that the main thing? The only thing?

 

[evdk]

Here's an anecdote: when Oblivion came out in 2006 I had never heard of Morrowind or the Elder Scrolls even though I've been playing computer and console games since the late 80s. I'm sure there were many more like me.

Oh, personal anecdote time. You used to troll better.

 

[Roguey]

Roguey Yes yes, we've all heard the "to-hit rolls in an action RPG are bad" speech. But what else? How else did Oblivion improve on Morrowind? Is that the main thing? The only thing?

One of those paragraphs also includes praise for its handling of stealth. Other than that, beats me, I've never played any of 'em.

 

[hiver]

I'm gonna tell you what is undeniable fact. A thousand preorders for a game where the core gameplay is hop-hopping from one critical skillcheck to another. That's some core audience.

Your broken concept of gameplay has been discussed to fucking death and left intact. But no, I'm not saying anything. After all, it was not crowd funded. It's your game and your waste of time and resources. And you can fuck it up as you please. Seems more a way of avantgarde artist than a marketing guy, but whatever.

ah shut it moron, youre nothing but a mockery anyway.

it was crowd loved and helped to build and still is.

When I review games, I offer my opinion for people who have similar tastes, not the ultimate judgement.

Really? So there is no actual objectively strong flaws in obliblion? or mas deffect series or DA2? Its all a matter of perspective?

If someone just wants to run around killing monsters scaled to his level, Oblivion is a fantastic game.

Of course we can only agree on that particular point, but thats not what i was asking. But, maybe it all just came out wrong somehow.

A Bioware fan, for example, might write a negative review and have a point there because the game doesn't deliver for him.

What the point that may be? How can someone have a "point" when reviewing a game of other genre then he likes then being negative about it because it doesnt play as a game that he likes?

RPG means different things to different people. Some people just want to have a world they can explore (as in running around and looking for nearby dungeons and caves and random encounters). We went too heavy with 'urban intrigue', which isn't everyone's cup of tea.

However that may be, mistakes and obvious flaws are still what they are.
Not dependant on preferences of the players.

Im not talking about a specific thing or a game here. Just the ultimate concept of the notion ... theres been a bit too much extreme (absolutistic) relativism around here lately for my liking so im a bit edgy about it.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Here's an anecdote: when Oblivion came out in 2006 I had never heard of Morrowind or the Elder Scrolls even though I've been playing computer and console games since the late 80s. I'm sure there were many more like me.

Do you live in the US? There is no fucking way a gamer could not hear about Daggerfall and Morrowind, if he/she was into RPGs. Daggerfall was advertised in every magazine. It was a fucking event of the year. Morrowind was hyped to high heaven.

"Speaking of Bloodlines and bitterness, some Bloodlines players may bitterly remember trying to fire a gun. Bloodlines tried to faithfully implement something resembling the Storyteller combat system, so you can start out aiming a revolver at a garbage can at point blank range and hitting the wall several feet to the left of your crosshair."

Unless you actually put points into Ranged and Firearms. Then you hit closer to where you aim. Fucking skills, how do they work?

"Let me restate what I wrote earlier in this thread: if a developer is going to make a game with real-time first person shooting mechanics and is going to ask the player to manually aim at their targets, the developer should make that mechanic feel good. Inflated spread doesn't actually make the game easier for anyone; it makes it harder for everyone."

Jesus fucking Christ. Put 7-8 points there and you'll rarely miss. But oh noes, what about people who don't put any points into these skills? Why should the game be so hard for them?

 

[Infinitron]

Roguey Yes yes, we've all heard the "to-hit rolls in an action RPG are bad" speech. But what else? How else did Oblivion improve on Morrowind? Is that the main thing? The only thing?

One of those paragraphs also includes praise for its handling of stealth. Other than that, beats me, I've never played any of 'em.

I see.

Well, here's the deal. I think during the long years of "popamole dominance" pre-Kickstarter, there was a tendency by professional devs like Sawyer and Mills to...exaggerate and embellish the virtues of games that sold better than their's. "Oblivion sold a bajillion copies! Todd Howard is a GENIUS who must be doing something right!" "Mass Effect and Oblivion are the games that have influenced me most as a game designer." (lol wut?)

But when asked to actually explain in detail how these games were great, they'll list maybe one or two actual design decisions, plus "polish". And then they'll heap a bunch of criticisms on them as well.

It's really weird, but understandable from the perspective of a professional who doesn't want to "argue with success".

 

[Kz3r0]

So Sawyer is not only an autistic aspie but a sycophant as well?
Great.

PS:
Rename the thread Sawyer ends fun, again.

 

[Roguey]

Do you live in the US? There is no fucking way a gamer could not hear about Daggerfall and Morrowind, if he/she was into RPGs. Daggerfall was advertised in every magazine. It was a fucking event of the year. Morrowind was hyped to high heaven.

Yes. I was a casual gamer.

I didn't become hardcore until 2006 when my life was in order and I could afford to waste more time (and money) on luxuries.

"Speaking of Bloodlines and bitterness, some Bloodlines players may bitterly remember trying to fire a gun. Bloodlines tried to faithfully implement something resembling the Storyteller combat system, so you can start out aiming a revolver at a garbage can at point blank range and hitting the wall several feet to the left of your crosshair."

Unless you actually put points into Ranged and Firearms. Then you hit closer to where you aim. Fucking skills, how do they work?

Not true. In Bloodlines, each gun has an inherent spread value. Putting points into the ranged feat (through perception and firearms) increases damage and the time it takes for the reticule to shrink after you've fired a bullet or stop moving but it does not decrease the inherent spread value of any given gun. Visual proof:

This is using the very first gun you get in Santa Monica, the left with low skill, the right with maximum. No difference at all between the randomized spread.

"Let me restate what I wrote earlier in this thread: if a developer is going to make a game with real-time first person shooting mechanics and is going to ask the player to manually aim at their targets, the developer should make that mechanic feel good. Inflated spread doesn't actually make the game easier for anyone; it makes it harder for everyone."

Jesus fucking Christ. Put 7-8 points there and you'll rarely miss. But oh noes, what about people who don't put any points into these skills? Why should the game be so hard for them?

See above and consider this: is this activity/mechanic enjoyable? Because I'd say it isn't. Josh made it enjoyable in New Vegas: if you meet the strength and skill requirements of the gun you're using, you only receive the penalty of its (usually miniscule) inherent spread value, as opposed to Bloodlines's whoppingly large values. Someone with 0 points in firearms (through having a 1 in agility luck and strength plus the combat penalty of the good natured perk) who picks up a 100 skill gun is going to have the widest spread ever. Number of people who have complained about this: none to my knowledge.

 

[Roguey]

I see.


Well, here's the deal. I think during the long years of "popamole dominance" pre-Kickstarter, there was a tendency by professional devs like Sawyer and Mills to...exaggerate and embellish the virtues of games that sold better than their's. "Oblivion sold a bajillion copies! Todd Howard is a GENIUS who must be doing something right!" "Mass Effect and Oblivion are the games that have influenced me most as a game designer." (lol wut?)

But when asked to actually explain in detail how these games were great, they'll list maybe one or two actual design decisions, plus "polish". And then they'll heap a bunch of criticisms on them as well.

It's really weird, but understandable from the perspective of a professional who doesn't want to "argue with success".

Counterpoint: Josh has sunk nearly 100 hours into Skyrim.

I've skimmed through http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Oblivion_for_Morrowind_players and I've noticed several other improvements Oblivion made. Do you really want me to compile a list?

 

[hiver]

As for as the issue of Morrowind and Oblivion,

The problem is not in changing the melee combat mechanics. That was actually the only good improvement that Obliblion made to those games.
And it was the only right thing to do for that Morrowind specific problem.

Because it was the implementation of it in Morrowind that was simply wrong. Its not the issue is it good to have skills strong influence - in itself it is.
The real problem is how to properly implement it - in a way that it fits with the mechanics and gestalt of the game.
Morrowind melee combat simply could not fit into the games grand design, other mechanics and scope of its reliance on player skills instead of those of a character. It worked actively against it - obviously so.


The Oblivions true mistakes and faults lie in everything else. In cheapening the setting, the depth.
By allowing the player to do everything. By level scaling, by loot scaling, by silly main quest plot and its even worse execution, magic system simplification done in the wrong way - problematic both for the sense of cheapening and reduction but also for doing it in a way that made the magic combat dull spam fest - that worked even worse with level scaling itself.
Which is really typical of the whole game. Not only did it have cheap shallow design but those different dumbed down features reacted with one another and increased each other negative effects in some sort of reinforcing loop.

 

[Infinitron]

I see.


Well, here's the deal. I think during the long years of "popamole dominance" pre-Kickstarter, there was a tendency by professional devs like Sawyer and Mills to...exaggerate and embellish the virtues of games that sold better than their's. "Oblivion sold a bajillion copies! Todd Howard is a GENIUS who must be doing something right!" "Mass Effect and Oblivion are the games that have influenced me most as a game designer." (lol wut?)

But when asked to actually explain in detail how these games were great, they'll list maybe one or two actual design decisions, plus "polish". And then they'll heap a bunch of criticisms on them as well.

It's really weird, but understandable from the perspective of a professional who doesn't want to "argue with success".

Counterpoint: Josh has sunk nearly 100 hours into Skyrim.

I've skimmed through http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Oblivion_for_Morrowind_players and I've noticed several other improvements Oblivion made. Do you really want me to compile a list?

Not really. I want Josh's list, not yours.

 

[Volourn]

" A Bioware fan, for example, might write a negative review and have a point there because the game doesn't deliver for him. "

O RLY?


"If someone just wants to run around killing monsters scaled to his level, Oblivion is a fantastic game. "

Sounds like Daggerfall to me. Endless dungeons to kill monsters and jump repeatedly to spam learn skills. R00fles!


"How about 60,000 people who voted for AoD on Steam?"

Yet, only 1k pre orders. Money talks, votes are useless shit.