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Was the Dishonored series good? Did System Shock 2 have good level design?

Discussion in 'General Gaming' started by JarlFrank, Mar 13, 2019.

  1. fantadomat Dumbfuck! Dumbfuck Edgy

    fantadomat
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    Another thread cut :roll:
     
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  2. Infinitron I post news Patron

    Infinitron
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    Grab the Codex by the pussy Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker
    I believe I can explain this.

    You could say there's a school of thought that developed on the RPG Codex during the 2000s that posited that the main, overriding flaw of modern (non-open world) console popamole games was poor, constraining level design. This is the generation of gamers that was utterly traumatized by the tiny maps of Deus Ex: Invisible War and the claustrophobic tunnels of BioShock. They've come to value good level design to such a degree that they're willing to overlook a lot of flaws if they get it. It's something that probably doesn't make as much sense to the post-Skyrim generation, who take expansive game spaces for granted.
     
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  3. Lord Romulus Arcane

    Lord Romulus
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    Only played the first one and thought it was decent at best. Seemed like the only way to get the "good ending" is to blink past everything. Would rather play something like Hitman since it mixes things up and provides interesting ways to complete levels besides just blinking past everything or just straight up killing everything in your path.
     
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  4. fantadomat Dumbfuck! Dumbfuck Edgy

    fantadomat
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    Dishonoured are decent games,they are no thief level of good,but still decent. Also it is not like there is a lot of stealth fps games out there.
     
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  5. Yosharian Liturgist

    Yosharian
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    Ah but if you deliberately choose not to use Blink, the game is excellent!
     
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  6. Yosharian Liturgist

    Yosharian
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    I'm 36 years old, so it's amusing that you consider me part of the 'post-Skyrim' generation, but thanks for the explanation. For the record, I grew up playing Thief on a 486 that was so slow, the zombie level was a slideshow. (It made it even scarier)
     
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  7. Wesp5 Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

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    Gameplay and realism should always be a compromise if you are supposed to be in a real environment, otherwise it will kill the immersion for me. SS2's level design wasn't "maze-like" as in confusing but rather, as has been stated, in that it looked nothing like a space ship. Combine this to the endless backtracking, the enemy respawning and the engine section which indeed looked like a maze, and it all screamed "How do we make the game longer without adding more maps?" to me! Which basically is exactly the same in "SS3" aka "NewPrey". Half-Life had some weird level design too, but it was a huge base underground so they could basically do what they wanted. And speaking of which, another thing that annoyed me a lot about SS2 compared to HL1 is that you never met anyone alive. Everyone was always dead or gone when you reached them which got really boring after a while.

    Coming back on topic, I enjoyed the Disnonored games much more, but I agree that "Blink" was much to powerfull. Also the game couldn't decide whether is was supposed to be a shooter or a sneaker, compared to the Thief games. Why give the player so many great ways to kill enemies and then punish them by increasing the chaos level even in cutscenes where it couldn't even play a role?
     
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  8. Master Arbiter

    Master
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    You complain about lack of realism, respawning and backtracking but its exactly backtracking and respawning that make the ship more believable...
     
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  9. Yosharian Liturgist

    Yosharian
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    The whole 'chaos' concept is a fucking joke.
     
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  10. Yosharian Liturgist

    Yosharian
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    One of John Romero's rules for creating DOOM levels was for players to revisit areas in a level in order for them to become more familiar with it.
     
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  11. Makabb Arcane Shitposter Bethestard

    Makabb
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    'Was Dishonored good?'

    No, it was poor mans Dark Messiah.
     
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  12. Wesp5 Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

    Wesp5
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    I can imagine that backtracking to some extent makes sense if new areas in old sections become unlocked, but I'll never understand how enemies spawning in empty rooms with no second entrance can be believable!

    And yes, Dark Messiah was great! I remember kicking enemies off cliffs all the time :). I wonder why there was never a sequel done to that, or why no modders ever picked up the assets to make a real RPG out of it.
     
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  13. JarlFrank I like Thief THIS much Patron

    JarlFrank
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    Ubisoft
     
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  14. Master Arbiter

    Master
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    Why not, there are bulkheads everywhere so its not much of a strech. But the main thing is they keep you on your toes and make you pay attention, and not just wonder when is the next level gonna come up.
     
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  15. Wesp5 Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

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    By "empty rooms with no second entrance" I meant rooms with no bulkheads.
     
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  16. Maggot Erudite Patron

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    Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire
    I never realized you were a cyperpunk spaceship expert.
     
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  17. Wesp5 Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

    Wesp5
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    I'm not. But I can imagine the SS2 developer meetings go like this: "We don't have time and resources to make more maps with new content, what shall we do?" "Let's just send the player back all over the place with a maximum amount of loading screens to areas they already visited." "But this will be boring because they already cleared these areas out!" "Then we will have endlessly respawning enemies popup there." "But fighting them will become easy once the player has gotten better weapons." "Then we will make the weapons degrade with some ridiculous technobabble explanation so they have to use the wrench most of the time." "Brilliant! This way we can double the playing time without making any new maps." I can magine the NewPrey developers having the same conversation :)!
     
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  18. Maggot Erudite Patron

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    Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire
    There is barely any backtracking and when there is any, it is to open an untouched area. This is the same series where you have to find a randomized code hidden on every floor to beat the game.
     
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  19. Wesp5 Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

    Wesp5
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    You are right, there basically is only one time you need to backtrack but this is from the command level down to engineering and back! Which means to go through all the loading zones two times with endless spawning enemies and a wrench. There might have been an elevator but still it was a lot of wasted time :). I didn't have fun! And to be back on topic, I don't remember anything like this in the Dishonored games, although the same happens a lot in NewPrey. Seems like Arkane Studios Austin has a different game philosophy...
     
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  20. Trithne Augur

    Trithne
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    Comparing Dishonored to Thief isnt really the right comparison imo. It shares vastly more of its design with Deus Ex, and only window dressing with Thief. Viewing it as a successor to Deus Ex makes a lot more sense, with the self contained levels, allowance for lethal and high action approaches, and magic as a stand in for augmentations.
     
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  21. TheHeroOfTime Arcane

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    Does the Codex luv Dishonored series?
     
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  22. Egosphere Savant

    Egosphere
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    is dishonored better than thief 3 at least?
     
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  23. I want to be Life Coach Grorious Reeeeeder Patron

    I want to be Life Coach
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    Grab the Codex by the pussy
    Were they copying nuThief with that blink shit? I forget which came first. Dishonored was fun, haven't played 2, but Chaos Theory is a better game so I just return to that. I prefer first person, but goddamit CT had better levels.
     
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  24. zwanzig_zwoelf Graverobber Foundation Developer

    zwanzig_zwoelf
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    Barely remember any respawning enemies in the game, unless you ignored cameras and ended up triggering the alarm on every corner.
     
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  25. Wesp5 Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

    Wesp5
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    Weird, because LGS actually added options to edit enemy respawning and weapon degradation in their own official patch. Sadly by the time the patch was out I had already played the game. See here: https://www.systemshock.org/index.php?topic=12.0
     
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