Codex Interview Wasteland 2 RPG Codex Interview - Part 2: Michael A. Stackpole

[Baron]

I'M VERY ANGRY ABOUT THE DIRECTION THIS GAME (ANNOUNCEMENT) IS GOING.

 

[Infinitron]

The funny thing is that none of this CODEX RAEG would have occurred if Mac Walters hadn't used the phrase 'emotionally engaging' in that one interview.

 

[shihonage]

You people must be on crack or something. Emotional involvement and full immersion in the world are key elements of ANY good games. It is not even open for discussion: if you don't feel anything, why the fuck are you even playing? The interview was more than OK, and if W2 turns out FO4 Indie that is going to be OK as well. Unless you rather spend more time with Mass Retarded 3 or those so cute wonderful ‘true’ indie RPGs like the last Mysterious Castle.

I agree. I don't think the problem with Bioware games is their constant talk of emotional engagement. The problem is their complete fucking lack of any emotional engagement despite all the talking about it.

Emotional engagement comes from a believable world designed in a neutral way that is unintrusive and doesn't force any emotion down the player's throat. Any emotions that are displayed should be those of NPCs. Everything that is fed directly to the player should have no "mark of the narrator". Then, and only then, there's a CHANCE of player generating and experiencing some kind of emotion or attachment, because it is completely of their own making.

Bioware and Bethesda games have this amateur narrator garbage poisoning every step of the game, including the interface itself, creating too much noise between player and gameworld to feel anything genuine.

 

[Grim Monk]

Ausir has just created a Wasteland 2 Wiki:
http://wasteland.falloutwiki.com/Wasteland_2_Wiki

 

[Average Manatee]

You people must be on crack or something. Emotional involvement and full immersion in the world are key elements of ANY good games. It is not even open for discussion: if you don't feel anything, why the fuck are you even playing? The interview was more than OK, and if W2 turns out FO4 Indie that is going to be OK as well. Unless you rather spend more time with Mass Retarded 3 or those so cute wonderful ‘true’ indie RPGs like the last Mysterious Castle.

I agree. I don't think the problem with Bioware games is their constant talk of emotional engagement. The problem is their complete fucking lack of any emotional engagement despite all the talking about it.

Emotional engagement comes from a believable world designed in a neutral way that is unintrusive and doesn't force any emotion down the player's throat. Any emotions that are displayed should be those of NPCs. Everything that is fed directly to the player should have no "mark of the narrator". Then, and only then, there's a CHANCE of player generating and experiencing some kind of emotion or attachment, because it is completely of their own making.

Bioware and Bethesda games have this amateur narrator garbage poisoning every step of the game, including the interface itself, creating too much noise between player and gameworld to feel anything genuine.

Yes, the true damage they do isn't by making shitty games. It's by making shitty games but talking their audience (through a mishmash of good but false talk and true but bad talk) into thinking that they are the best games that have ever been made. 1984-esque doublethink in action. DA3 will certainly be doubleplusgood, Bioware makes it.

 

[Arikel]

. Civilization 2, and many other strategy games. Doom, Blood.

.

I find it odd that you say these games didn't make you feel anything, as all entertainment attempts to engage the viewer emotionally. Joy in victory, bitterness in defeat at the very least for strategy games, with an expanding array of available emotions as computer ai's and diplomacy options were developed. In addition, doom, and blood work like horror movies, raising heartbeats and giving a kind of visceral excitement you can get from a good unexpected shock. Of course on repeated playthrough's they would lose some of this but there's no denying that they did try to put you into a fight or flight state while playing. All of these are attempts to engage the player on emotional level. I don't find it surprising that the game designer who is most known for his writing would talk about trying to engage people's emotions.

I myself am looking forward to this game, i have been waiting for wasteland 2 for many many years. Not saying the designer's are above reproach, but I'll give em the benefit of the doubt, and probably my wallet

 

[4too]

Trapped In A C And C Cul de Sac ?



{rage rave: off}

… there was no other solution to the quest …

If the quest was to rescue Jackie, you did not have to kill the dog ...

… just survive climbing out of the cave …



I will repeat that for those on drugs … You Don't Have To Kill The Dog!

… and High-pool lives happily ever after. :D


{rage rave: on}


4too

 

[Crooked Bee]

I guess we should see what kind of features are being asked for on the official Wasteland 2 forum, since that's where Fargo & Co are going to get an idea of "what the fans want". Truth be told, I don't like the idea of designing the game based on fan forum feedback in the least -- it seems to always be the first step towards dumbing the game down -- but what can you do. Will check it out a bit later today.

 

[Mrowak]

I guess we should see what kind of features are being asked for on the official Wasteland 2 forum, since that's where Fargo & Co are going to get an idea of "what the fans want". Truth be told, I don't like the idea of designing the game based on fan forum feedback in the least -- it seems to always be the first step towards dumbing the game down -- but what can you do. Will check it out a bit later today.

Oh Jesus, no... That's really bad news. From Bioware a Twitcher forum experience I know that for every legitimate, interesting proposal there will be like 30 people clamouring "No, no, no! That's too confusing! Give us hawt mutant ghay sekz intead!". You'd think that the core fanbase of such titles should be above such things, considering that Wasteland is pretty obscure game by now.But knowing the interwebz, somehow I doubt that.

I hope those Brian & Co have strong vision of what they want to accomplish and they will use player feedback to add harmless, complementary features.

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

I find it odd that you say these games didn't make you feel anything, as all entertainment attempts to engage the viewer emotionally. Joy in victory, bitterness in defeat at the very least for strategy games, with an expanding array of available emotions as computer ai's and diplomacy options were developed. In addition, doom, and blood work like horror movies, raising heartbeats and giving a kind of visceral excitement you can get from a good unexpected shock. Of course on repeated playthrough's they would lose some of this but there's no denying that they did try to put you into a fight or flight state while playing. All of these are attempts to engage the player on emotional level. I don't find it surprising that the game designer who is most known for his writing would talk about trying to engage people's emotions.

Yeah, but here we aren't talking about primitive instinctive reactions, but about some people feeling heartbroken because of having to kill a rapid dog that is attacking them in game. What the hell?

 

[Crooked Bee]

Oh Jesus, no... That's really bad news. From Bioware a Twitcher forum experience I know that for every legitimate, interesting proposal there will be like 30 people clamouring "No, no, no! That's too confusing! Give us hawt mutant ghay sekz intead!". You'd think that the core fanbase of such titles should be above such things, considering that Wasteland is pretty obscure game by now.But knowing the interwebz, somehow I doubt that.

True. That's my main concern as well, and the reason why I described the CRPGAddict type of demographics earlier.

Shannow asks, "why should W2 be the game to prove that those features don't neccessarily have to suck if they weren't problems or even features of the original?" Consider this: from Michael Stackpole's interview, it is quite clear they ARE already inclined to include a GPS compass/quest markers into the game. "But why? It wasn't there in the original Wasteland! Why would they do that?," you'd ask. The problem is -- I do not argue this is 100% true, but this is definitely a strong possibility in my view -- that the vast majority of those who love, or at least are nostalgic for, old crpgs WOULDN'T object to that particular features being implemented into the core game; on the contrary, they would WELCOME it. Why? Because they consider it a self-evident modern convenience. "The old games didn't have quest markers, true," they would say, "but there's no reason an 'updated' sequel shouldn't have them." They're willing to satisfy their nostalgia, but in a more convenient, up-to-date package -- like any other average fan-turned-consumer would. They would accept the game being turn-based and even top-down. The absence of quest markers, however, would be regarded by them as an unnecessary throwback to the old days. And judging by the more popular forums and blogs that I sometimes read (CRPGAddict's blog, SomethingAwful, etc.; heck, even RPGWatch to some extent), this kind of audience is much larger than the Codex -- and there's a possibility it's going to dominate the official forums.

And that's why Brian Fargo must be facing a very hard choice: who to target? Them or us? Personally, I hope it's going to be us, and that we're numerous enough to fund the kind of game we want and to make our voice heard on the internet, including the official W2 boards. But only time will tell.

 

[thesisko]

Shannow asks, "why should W2 be the game to prove that those features don't neccessarily have to suck if they weren't problems or even features of the original?" Consider this: from Michael Stackpole's interview, it is quite clear they ARE already inclined to include a GPS compass/quest markers into the game. "But why? It wasn't there in the original Wasteland! Why would they do that?," you'd ask. The problem is -- I do not argue this is 100% true, but this is definitely a strong possibility in my view -- that the vast majority of those who love, or at least are nostalgic for, old crpgs WOULDN'T object to that particular features being implemented into the core game; on the contrary, they would WELCOME it. Why? Because they consider it a self-evident modern convenience. "The old games didn't have quest markers, true," they would say, "but there's no reason an 'updated' sequel shouldn't have them." They're willing to satisfy their nostalgia, but in a more convenient, up-to-date package -- like any other average fan-turned-consumer would.

Why doesn't Divinity 2, Risen, Risen 2, Demon's/Dark Souls have quest compasses then? Doesn't it make more sense to target fans of recent so-called "hardcore" RPGs than old Wasteland players who love the quest compass? There must be millions of the former and hardly any of the latter. Even if every single active gamer who's played Wasteland donated I doubt it would be enough to reach his target. He needs to target a bigger niche than that.

They would accept the game being turn-based and even top-down. The absence of quest markers, however, would be regarded by them as an unnecessary throwback to the old days. And judging by the more popular forums and blogs that I sometimes read (CRPGAddict's blog, SomethingAwful, etc.; heck, even RPGWatch to some extent), this kind of audience is much larger than the Codex -- and there's a possibility it's going to dominate the official forums.

I doubt the type of crowd you're describing is particularly large. I've never heard of anyone who wants an involved and complex game yet would complain about lack of quest markers. If they like quest markers then they're typically also satisfied with shallow gameplay. They would have no reason to donate to a niche RPG except for nostalgia as you said. Even if they are enough to fund the game it would be a rather pointless exercise in creating an indie version of a game that might as well have been funded by a publisher.

However, I think there's a large crowd of apologists, gamers who don't really like the direction of "AAA" RPG's but see no alternatives. They say "we'll never get a game like X again so we might as well enjoy the modern stuff". I've seen this type of statement being made many times, on major gaming forums, even including BioWare Social. Well, here's their chance to make sure we get more games like X again. This is the crowd Fargo needs to target,.

 

[Infinitron]

I don't think the type of crowd you're describing really exists. I've never heard of anyone who wants an involved and complex game yet would complain about quest markers. If they like quest markers then they're typically also satisfied with shallow gameplay.

Maybe it would help if we gave that crowd a label you would recognize. Storyfags. Yes, there are many "oldschool" players out there who played the old games mainly for the story, or the hint of a story. These are the people who aren't feeling so badly about modern trends in RPG development. For them, the important thing about a game is that it's not another Call of Duty clone and it's not trying to pander to the Call of Duty crowd. Gameplay, mechanics? Eh, not so important.

 

[thesisko]

Maybe it would help if we gave that crowd a label you would recognize. Storyfags. Yes, there are many "oldschool" players out there who played the old games mainly for the story, or the hint of a story. These are the people who aren't feeling so badly about modern trends in RPG development. For them, the important thing about a game is that it's not another Call of Duty clone and it's not trying to pander to the Call of Duty crowd. Gameplay, mechanics? Eh, not so important.

I think these gamers are more than satisfied playing DA2, ME3, Witcher 2 etc. Why they hell would you need a Kickstarter project to fund a game for them?

 

[Infinitron]

Maybe it would help if we gave that crowd a label you would recognize. Storyfags. Yes, there are many "oldschool" players out there who played the old games mainly for the story, or the hint of a story. These are the people who aren't feeling so badly about modern trends in RPG development. For them, the important thing about a game is that it's not another Call of Duty clone and it's not trying to pander to the Call of Duty crowd. Gameplay, mechanics? Eh, not so important.

I think these gamers are more than satisfied playing DA2, ME3, Witcher 2 etc. Why they hell would you need a Kickstarter project to fund a game for them?

I guess because even storyfags can feel nostalgia.

 

[Crooked Bee]

Doesn't it make more sense to target fans of recent so-called "hardcore" RPGs than old Wasteland players who love the quest compass?

I dunno. I hope it does.

I don't think the type of crowd you're describing really exists.

What. I already gave you one example: CRPGAddict. I gave you another example: Ultima fans -- really numerous. Then there are many SomethingAwful posters who follow LPs of old crpgs and leave comments like: I used to have fun with this game back in the day, but man, if only it was as easy to play as contemporary games. Etc. Also, yeah, storyfags. Many would play Wasteland 2 for the setting alone, not the mechanics, and they are probably going to be vocally demanding the inclusion of quest markers.

I think these gamers are more than satisfied playing DA2, ME3, Witcher 2 etc. Why they hell would you need a Kickstarter project to fund a game for them?

You're oversimplifying it. We're not talking 18 year olds here. We're talking those who grew up in the 80s/90s. They DO love old CRPGs, and they ARE willing to donate, except they want their game "modernized" -- and when it comes to money, that's the thing that matters most.

 

[Shannow]

The crowd W2 will attract:
People who played W1, liked it and are nostalgic about it. - They require no emotioneering, aren't easily frustrated and require no VO.
People who may not have played W1 but hunger for a (well done) TB RPG. - They require no emotioneering, aren't easily frustrated and require no VO.

The crowd W2 has no better chance of attracting than any other game:
People who liked PST's - and the two or three other games with non-shallow stories - stories. - Some of them might require emotioneering, are easily frustrated, require VOs and see TB as an obstacle instead of a good feature.
(And seriously, storyfags should just read books...)

Crooked Bee, if you were the dev, which crowd would you prioritize in your game design/PR?

 

[Crooked Bee]

The crowd W2 will attract:
People who played W1, liked it and are nostalgic about it. - They require no emotioneering, aren't easily frustrated and require no VO.
People who may not have played W1 but hunger for a (well done) TB RPG. - They require no emotioneering, aren't easily frustrated and require no VO.

The crowd W2 has no better chance of attracting than any other game:
People who liked PST's - and the two or three other games with non-shallow stories - stories. - Some of them might require emotioneering, are easily frustrated, require VOs and see TB as an obstacle instead of a good feature.
(And seriously, storyfags should just read books...)

Crooked Bee, if you were the dev, which crowd would you prioritize in your game design/PR?

So you didn't read a thing I wrote, huh.

 

[Infinitron]

thesisko, Shannow
Here's a classic example of an "oldschool storyfag" - the MobyGames reviewer Unicorn Lynx: http://www.mobygames.com/user/sheet/userSheetId,6226/
Read his reviews of RPGs, see where he's coming from.

 

[thesisko]

You're both describing a scenario where Kickstarter is used to fund a mainstream low-budget game targeted at mainstream gamers who feel nostalgia towards the project for one reason or another.
Is it possible to do such a project? Sure...but it seems utterly pointless. I'd certainly never fund such a project. The draw of Kickstarter funding is targeting niches that are too small to be interesting to publishers, not to indulge people's nostalgia - the publishers already have that covered with their "re-imaginings".

 

[Infinitron]

You're both describing a scenario where Kickstarter is used to fund a mainstream low-budget game targeted at mainstream gamers who feel nostalgia towards the project for one reason or another.
Is it possible to do such a project? Sure...but it seems utterly pointless. I'd certainly never fund such a project. The draw of Kickstarter funding is targeting niches that are too small to be interesting to publishers, not to indulge people's nostalgia - the publishers already have that covered with their "re-imaginings".

I doubt W2 will be "mainstream" - just saying there might be good reason to have a few mainstream features added in.

 

[Crooked Bee]

You're both describing a scenario where Kickstarter is used to fund a mainstream low-budget game targeted at mainstream gamers who feel nostalgia towards the project for one reason or another.
Is it possible to do such a project? Sure...but it seems utterly pointless. I'd certainly never fund such a project. The draw of Kickstarter funding is targeting niches that are too small to be interesting to publishers, not to indulge people's nostalgia - the publishers already have that covered with their "re-imaginings".

It'd be different from most "re-imaginings" in that it'd be top-down and turn-based, though. Imagine Wasteland, except with a GPS device/quest compass. Would it be a typical "mainstream low-budget game"? No. Would it satisfy us (= the Codex)? No. Again, I think you're oversimplifying it.

 

[Shannow]

I've asked it before: Is Wasteland a storyfag game?
If we were talking about PS:T 2 I'd have no problem in accepting CB's arguments, and instead of stating that priority on emotioneering, quest markers and VOs makes me uneasy, I'd be commenting on how to implement them in a non-retarded fashion (though that's impossible where emotioneering is concerned). But AFAIK we're not talking about a sequel to a storyfag game. Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[4too]

A Puzzle, In A Mystery, In An Enigma



Why couldn't the proposed Wasteland 2 GPS be a dysfunctional accessory and mock the Pip Boy, and the i-Pads, by emulating the narration mania of 'The Hitchhikers' Guide'?

Why not mix clues with crippled quest vectors, and be the source for yet another puzzle that must be validated by exploration and divining retro 'key words' from red herring dialogue trees?

As long as it's clearly part of the gameplay why would the casuals whine?

'Teh' hard, or 'teh' different, why can't the FEAR FACTOR of failure return to video games?



4too

 

[Crooked Bee]

I've asked it before: Is Wasteland a storyfag game?

Most of its fans are there for the setting, that much I'm sure of. People love their post-apoc.

(Again, in everything I wrote, and in the kind of demographics I described and tend to observe on more mainstream forums, I wasn't really talking about "emotional engagement" -- I mostly had quest compass in mind. Not sure about the "emotional engagement" kind of demographics, really.

I'm just saying there are TWO kinds of “those who love old CRPGs”, no matter if they played Wasteland or not. TWO. NOT ONE. One is the kind you describe (who "aren't easily frustrated", etc.; = the Codex); the other one is the kind I have described above.

There are two factions, basically. Imagine you’re a dev. You can either join the first faction (‘us’, anti-quest compass) or the second faction (‘them’, pro-quest compass). Whichever faction the dev joins, depends entirely on whichever faction is more numerous and therefore more likely to donate. In my own humble experience of reading various RPG-related blog/threads/forums on the internet, the second faction is very widespread, alas.)

EDIT: Another (likely) outcome is that they're going to try pleasing BOTH. That just... won't end well, since that'd require too delicate a balance: making quest compass optional so that the game's design wouldn't revolve around it, etc.