Codex Interview Wasteland 2 RPG Codex Interview - Part 2: Michael A. Stackpole

[thesisko]

​

thesisko, Shannow
Here's a classic example of an "oldschool storyfag" - the MobyGames reviewer Unicorn Lynx: http://www.mobygames.com/user/sheet/userSheetId,6226/
Read his reviews of RPGs, see where he's coming from.

Read a bunch of his reviews and fail to see your point. He seems much like myself when it comes to tastes in games and I highly doubt someone like him would be an advocate of hand-holding and simplification when it comes to Wasteland 2.
Just because someone doesn't outright declare their hate for every game featuring quest compasses or romances á Skyway doesn't mean they want those things in every single game. His reviews certainly didn't give me that impression.

 

[Crooked Bee]

Why couldn't the proposed Wasteland 2 GPS be a dysfunctional accessory and mock the Pip Boy, and the i-Pads, by emulating the narration mania of 'The Hitchhikers' Guide'?

Why not mix clues with crippled quest vectors, and be the source for yet another puzzle that must be validated by exploration and divining retro 'key words' from red herring dialogue trees?

As long as it's clearly part of the gameplay why would the casuals whine?

That'd be... too good to be true. You should post it on the official forum.

why can't the FEAR FACTOR of failure return to video games?

Now you've made me sad.

That said, the fear factor works well in case of, say, Dark Souls, so maybe not all hope is lost.

 

[Infinitron]

​

thesisko, Shannow
Here's a classic example of an "oldschool storyfag" - the MobyGames reviewer Unicorn Lynx: http://www.mobygames.com/user/sheet/userSheetId,6226/
Read his reviews of RPGs, see where he's coming from.

Read a bunch of his reviews and fail to see your point. He seems much like myself when it comes to tastes in games and I highly doubt someone like him would be an advocate of hand-holding and simplification when it comes to Wasteland 2.
Just because someone doesn't outright declare their hate for every game featuring quest compasses or romances á Skyway doesn't mean they want those things in every single game. His reviews certainly didn't give me that impression.

Read his Icewind Dale or Morrowind reviews.

And yeah, he's not an advocate, but he's not complaining about it either, and that matters. If the value of a feature is neutral to most and positive to a few, that feature will be added in.

 

[thesisko]

You're both describing a scenario where Kickstarter is used to fund a mainstream low-budget game targeted at mainstream gamers who feel nostalgia towards the project for one reason or another.
Is it possible to do such a project? Sure...but it seems utterly pointless. I'd certainly never fund such a project. The draw of Kickstarter funding is targeting niches that are too small to be interesting to publishers, not to indulge people's nostalgia - the publishers already have that covered with their "re-imaginings".

I doubt W2 will be "mainstream" - just saying there might be good reason to have a few mainstream features added in.

The features you describe aren't mainstream. NWN2, Risen, Divinity 2, Dark Souls are mainstream compared to this project and they didn't have them. They're "AAA"-multiplatform "accessible"-"have to make sure every single living person and his grandmother can win the game or we won't sell 10M copies"-kind of features.

 

[thesisko]

​

And yeah, he's not an advocate, but he's not complaining about it either, and that matters. If the value of a feature is neutral to most and positive to a few, that feature will be added in.

Added in as a helpful cheat? Why not, I have nothing against that either. Might even use it if totally stuck.

But just because someone doesn't mind playing a game designed around the quest compass doesn't mean he'd like the same for every game. This guy certainly seems intelligent enough to see how a game like Fallout or Arcanum would be affected by being completely designed around having magical quest markers.

I love New Vegas and didn't really mind the quest compass, but it would certainly have been possible to improve both the quest design and the exploration aspect if it would have been optional / less specific. I think most gamers who are capable of enjoying a game like Fallout or Arcanum but also like newer games can see that the some features just serve to limit the potential of the game and won't not just rabidly demand their inclusion.

 

[Infinitron]

​

And yeah, he's not an advocate, but he's not complaining about it either, and that matters. If the value of a feature is neutral to most and positive to a few, that feature will be added in.

Added in as a helpful cheat? Why not, I have nothing against that either. Might even use it if totally stuck.

But just because someone doesn't mind playing a game designed around the quest compass doesn't mean he'd like the same for every game. This guy certainly seems intelligent enough to see how a game like Fallout or Arcanum would be affected by being completely designed around having magical quest markers.

Maybe you're right. Ultima Lazarus didn't have quest compasses, or a quest journal for that matter, or any other modern convenience. You can't go more hardcore than a freeware game.
Would it have been ruined with those features, though? I'm not sure. Depends on how detailed the compass would be, ie, the difference between pointing you in a general direction and hovering over the head of an NPC.

 

[thesisko]

Maybe you're right. Ultima Lazarus didn't have quest compasses, or a quest journal for that matter, or any other modern convenience. You can't go more hardcore than a freeware game.
Would it have been ruined with those features, though? I'm not sure. Depends on how detailed the compass would be, ie, the difference between pointing you in a general direction and hovering over the head of an NPC.

Something else to consider: Most gamers don't really analyze the mechanics of the game. Take my brother, he was talking about how Risen was more fun than Oblivion because "you have to pay attention to solve the quests". He doesn't think in terms of "modern features" or quest design. He just plays the game and likes the way it plays. The people who demand specific features from game X to be put into game Y because X sold millions are publishers, not gamers.

 

[St. Toxic]

Here's a classic example of an "oldschool storyfag" - the MobyGames reviewer Unicorn Lynx: http://www.mobygames.com/user/sheet/userSheetId,6226/
Read his reviews of RPGs, see where he's coming from.

Location:Israel

 

[Country_Gravy]

I thought he was talking about the GPS being optional and only work in some locations. If it is optional and even further restricted by not working on indoor areas or underground or someplace where there is interference or something then couldn't everyone be satisfied? As long as the quests give you good directions on where to look for the next part of the quest and you can solve the game without the use of any sort of quest compass then it should satisfy both sides of the argument here. The main complaint with quest compasses seems to be that either you can't turn them off or the game designers assume that you are using them so they don't give good directions on where to go to complete the quests. These seem to be easily fixed.

How come so much bitching about this interview? Most of the complaints seem to be reading way to much into what is said or just misunderstanding what he is talking about. The game hasn't even really started preproduction and the website and forum just went live yesterday. Half the shit this guy says sounds like he is just brainstorming on stuff that COULD be included in the game.

 

[Brayko]

If the game has magical quest compasses I'm not even gonna bother. That seriously detracts from the gameplay. Written, clear cut directions or some level of detective work on where to pursue the quest, imo. I would not like this to be another game targetted at ADD 7th graders, considering that I would be paying to fund it.

 

[Carrion]

I thought he was talking about the GPS being optional and only work in some locations. If it is optional and even further restricted by not working on indoor areas or underground or someplace where there is interference or something then couldn't everyone be satisfied? As long as the quests give you good directions on where to look for the next part of the quest and you can solve the game without the use of any sort of quest compass then it should satisfy both sides of the argument here. The main complaint with quest compasses seems to be that either you can't turn them off or the game designers assume that you are using them so they don't give good directions on where to go to complete the quests. These seem to be easily fixed.

Another option could be to make the GPS system more vague so that it would only point you to the general direction such as a town or a building instead of giving you the exact location of an objective. I'd have no problems with something like that.

 

[Johannes]

I don't remember ever playing a game with a quest compass so I might not properly understand all its (real or presumed) implications, but what's so horrible about having some GPS device show a route to a location for you? It's not like finding your way around in Wasteland or Fallout was difficult. Are there examples of games that suffer from quest compass, that have topdown camera anyway?

 

[Brother None]

Truth be told, I don't like the idea of designing the game based on fan forum feedback in the least.

But that's not really what they're doing. They've got a core design ready to go for a while now. Fan feedback is a factor, but it's not the basis. That's a pretty important distinction.

 

[Crooked Bee]

Truth be told, I don't like the idea of designing the game based on fan forum feedback in the least.

But that's not really what they're doing. They've got a core design ready to go for a while now. Fan feedback is a factor, but it's not the basis. That's a pretty important distinction.

That's good to hear. Really.

 

[St. Toxic]

I don't remember ever playing a game with a quest compass so I might not properly understand all its (real or presumed) implications, but what's so horrible about having some GPS device show a route to a location for you? It's not like finding your way around in Wasteland or Fallout was difficult. Are there examples of games that suffer from quest compass, that have topdown camera anyway?

Well, it's pretty common in hack'n'slash games, where the idea is that actively having to look for your objective detracts from the game's core game-play which is simply to beat the shit out of everything. Sure, if all you're doing is cleaning the game-world of various baddies in some specific order, you might as well skip the frustration of having to find them for yourself, especially if the world isn't interesting enough on its own to make that process entertaining. When we're talking about more meaningful quest sequences though, and in an open-world scenario where exploration is a big part of the game-play experience, having all the pit-stops pointed out to you beforehand can turn an interesting, well written quest-line into a series of fed-ex deliveries along the lines of quests in less rp-centered games such as mmos and hack'n'slash games.

I also fondly recall quest-lines that would affect several different people, and could be tackled from various sides of the conflict and so weren't being emitted from the same hub but possibly two or three different sources. In a compass-assisted game you'd either get a marker for each potential quest giver, thus spoiling any surprise that might stem from an unexpected alternate solution, or prioritize one quest giver over the other based on either alignment or just tag whomever you met first, which in most cases would mean that players are less likely to try solutions alternative to those specified by the compass. In short, the quest compass is one of the ultimate stream-lining tools of the next-gen gaming scene, making it possible for people who lack patience or free time to have an rpg experience, but ultimately making that experience more shallow and less meaningful.

That aside, a GPS would imply several functioning satellites still in operational condition, which in my opinion makes the "apocalypse" seem like a more lukewarm affair than it really should be. Even then, the GPS would hardly supply you with information on where you need to go in regards to various people or organizations, unless they and you were connected to some sort of GPS network and openly sharing their position, which I would consider a fairly dangerous operation. If you just want to know where you are geographically, which is what a single functioning GPS would tell you, you'll do just as well with a map. A good map and the ability to mark places of interest and add comments yourself and you're set; heck, maps might even be good economical items and map-reading isn't a bad skill to invest in.

 

[hiver]

A game is about thinking, problem solving, and doing, not about emotions. You're also wrong about the words engagement and attachment.

Are you insane?

A quick example that completely disproves this is poker. There's no emotional engagement or attachment of any kind, but I enjoy it a lot.

Are you... completely insane?

Do you even have the ability to.... understand what you yourself is saying?
...

WITHOUT EMOTIONS HUMANS WOULD NOT BE INTERESTED IN ANYTHING OR FIND FUCKING ENJOYMENT IN ANYTHING!! OR FUCKING ANYTHING ELSE!!
YOU FUCKING DUMBSHIT!

 

[Brother None]

Of course he'd say that. I am making a big flipflop here since the first interview but it seems unlikely he had a dream to make a quest compass.

Because a quest compass is definitely in? Your troll-fu is too weak to challenge me, bro.

 

[St. Toxic]

WITHOUT EMOTIONS HUMANS WOULD NOT BE INTERESTED IN ANYTHING OR FIND FUCKING ENJOYMENT IN ANYTHING!! OR FUCKING ANYTHING ELSE!!
YOU FUCKING DUMBSHIT!

You don't build cars based on what people are likely to feel about them. That doesn't mean there won't be emotions when you hit a brick wall going 250 an hour, albeit very briefly, but those emotions are simply not part of the blue-print for the system that enables them to occur. In essence, unless you're a woman you better put a lid on the idea of actually feeling things. But more specifically, keep emotions out of art, games, movies and literary works; the holy trinity of programmable human states, which we've been harping on for the last 200 years of our entertainment, has stopped being effective on anyone with taste more discerning than pony enthusiasm will allow.

 

[hiver]

You don't build cars based on what people are likely to feel about them. That doesn't mean there won't be emotions when you hit a brick wall going 250 an hour, albeit very briefly, but those emotions are simply not part of the blue-print for the system that enables them to occur. In essence, unless you're a woman you better put a lid on the idea of actually feeling things. But more specifically, keep emotions out of art, games, movies and literary works; the holy trinity of programmable human states, which we've been harping on for the last 200 years of our entertainment, has stopped being effective on anyone with taste more discerning than pony enthusiasm will allow.

We were not talking about making cars but games.
Thing is, youre such a simpleton that think "emotions" are only the strongest ones that you know.
A game that does not evoke any emotion at all does not exist nor ever will. Gmes evoke a myriad of them, not only HATE; LOVE; FEAR; LUST!!! and similar shit.

What we call reason and emotions are inexorably linked to and infused with each other.
In everything we do.

Thats a fact, Toxic. Regardless of anyone that "feels" better in any way to deny it.

Thanks, Hiver, that was a good laugh.

Let me put it in your own language EMOTIONS ARE THE PAYOFF NOT THE GAME ITSELF YOU FUCKING TURGID POOPSKULL NINNYHAMMER.

If he's talking about the payoff it's pointless masturbation. If he's talking about the game, which he is, he's talking about the decline and trying to sell us on how great it is to decline gaming.

You are a stupid simpleminded, limited brain capabilities moron.

As you evidently fathom these complexities yourself im forced to point out, once again, that you said you enjoy poker you fucking stupid turd.

-youre putting bronone on ignore list?



-edit-
btw, as far as this interview is concerned... THOSE kinds of emotional engagement this fellow mentioned is an mass market media equivalent so in most probability it does mean they will go down the cheap, shallow, superficial route in design.

Quest compass and full voiced dialogue sound stupid too, each for its own reasons.
The way he describes "text" as the only and bad alternative to voiced dialogue (which i presume he means full voiced dialogue) is stupid too and the way he avoids giving answers to questions in that shitty shallow PR manner is telling too.

 

[St. Toxic]

We were not talking about making cars but games.

And what, you're telling me cars can't be entertaining? That people aren't emotional about their autos? What are you, some sort of hippie scumbag?

Thing is, youre such a simpleton that think "emotions" are only the strongest ones that you know.

My emotional depth is quite irrelevant, as nobody's talking about designing a game for me specifically and basing it on a biography of my life so far. When it comes to whacking a few million people with the "emotional sledgehammer", the holy trinity is sad, happy, angry, which is all that games these days attempt to offer up.

The games that don't try to emotionally engage their players, but rather construct interesting, open-ended scenarios and make people think about them as part of the interaction, are quite capable of awakening deeper, though more varied, emotions in the people that play them.

The essential difference here is, humans are emotional enough without external forces pushing infantile feelings down their throat. Games, movies and books do not need to construct emotions for you to feel, they only need to construct plausible scenarios for your private emotions to exist in.

A game that does not evoke any emotion at all does not exist nor ever will.

What about counting? 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7...

Gmes evoke a myriad of them, not only HATE; LOVE; FEAR; LUST!!! and similar shit.

Yeah, but so does staring at the wall or wiping your ass or closing your eyes or frying an egg. Despite all the attempts by Prosper, we have yet to see this behavior result in viable design documents.

What we call reason and emotions are inexorably linked to and infused with each other.
In everything we do.

Thats a fact, Toxic. Regardless of anyone that "feels" better in any way to deny it.

I don't doubt the validity of your emotions, in fact you seem to have quite a lot of them to throw around. I just think it's part of being a man not to wear them on the outside. We are after all supposed to be rational beings first and foremost, and to retain any coherence in discussion, reach valuable conclusions and accept compromises we are bound to think outside of our personal feelings on the subject, and thus it shames our gender to give in to mindless self-indulgence.

Your emotions, after all, are part of your own private little universe in the same way as your body is; flaunting either in public is nothing less than a mating call. Suffice to say I am not interested in mating, and my only advise is not to act like a woman unless you want to be one.

EDIT: Oh,

you said you enjoy poker you fucking stupid turd.

First off, enjoyment can hardly be quoted in as part of a game's design, unless the game is chemical and you inject it into your brain and it stimulates some section involved in creating euphoria or something. Which is more like dope really.

Secondly, it's not much of an emotional state as it is a description of the subjective quality of various emotional states. A horror themed game might cause you great anxiety and scare the shit out of you, and you'd still enjoy that. If you hate games, not playing a game might be quite enjoyable. If you hate having emotions, a game that puts you in a meditative trance and makes you feel empty might be quite enjoyable. I guess you can enjoy a coma, provided you wake up at some point in order to express that enjoyment.

 

[Johannes]

I also fondly recall quest-lines that would affect several different people, and could be tackled from various sides of the conflict and so weren't being emitted from the same hub but possibly two or three different sources. In a compass-assisted game you'd either get a marker for each potential quest giver, thus spoiling any surprise that might stem from an unexpected alternate solution, or prioritize one quest giver over the other based on either alignment or just tag whomever you met first, which in most cases would mean that players are less likely to try solutions alternative to those specified by the compass. In short, the quest compass is one of the ultimate stream-lining tools of the next-gen gaming scene, making it possible for people who lack patience or free time to have an rpg experience, but ultimately making that experience more shallow and less meaningful.

Funny how that's my fear with AoD's fast travel, all the options are pointed to you straight up.

Best way though to ensure everyone can find what they are looking for, I think, would be to make townspeople give directions like in Arcanum or Outcast. And for the bigger scale map, give out maps or GPS or whatever.
In any case though I don't see finding location/people that are not specifically hiding, or walking around in random patterns or such, would prove difficult in a game with birds eye camera position. Only in a 1st person or close-up 3rd person it can prove difficult to grasp your bearings.
Or actually, Tarant was big enough to get lost in at first. But that's easily fixable by a good map I think, if the game is to feature a city of that size (probably it won't).

 

[hiver]

We were not talking about making cars but games.

And what, you're telling me cars can't be entertaining? That people aren't emotional about their autos? What are you, some sort of hippie scumbag?

Of course. And they are designed with people eventual emotions about every aspect of them being part of it.
Its not a primary concern in the technical part of design, thats all.

Thing is, youre such a simpleton that think "emotions" are only the strongest ones that you know.

My emotional depth is quite irrelevant, as nobody's talking about designing a game for me specifically and basing it on a biography of my life so far. When it comes to whacking a few million people with the "emotional sledgehammer", the holy trinity is sad, happy, angry, which is all that games these days attempt to offer up.
[/QUOTE]
Your emotional depth is relevant since youre making these assumptions based on it.
True about what AAA mass market games offer and strive for. Of course. They are designed for masses of morons after all.
But that doesnt mean that finer games do not stroke the strings of other, more refined, deeper and "smarter", more demanding "emotions".

The games that don't try to emotionally engage their players, but rather construct interesting, open-ended scenarios and make people think about them as part of the interaction, are quite capable of awakening deeper, though more varied, emotions in the people that play them.

Exactly.
By that you mean they dont need to pander to shallow most obviouss emotions in shallow stupid ways.

The essential difference here is, humans are emotional enough without external forces pushing infantile feelings down their throat. Games, movies and books do not need to construct emotions for you to feel, they only need to construct plausible scenarios for your private emotions to exist in.

Also true.

A game that does not evoke any emotion at all does not exist nor ever will.

What about counting? 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7...

Is that a game?

Gmes evoke a myriad of them, not only HATE; LOVE; FEAR; LUST!!! and similar shit.

Yeah, but so does staring at the wall or wiping your ass or closing your eyes or frying an egg. Despite all the attempts by Prosper, we have yet to see this behavior result in viable design documents.

Pointless to this discussion.

What we call reason and emotions are inexorably linked to and infused with each other.
In everything we do.

Thats a fact, Toxic. Regardless of anyone that "feels" better in any way to deny it.

I don't doubt the validity of your emotions, in fact you seem to have quite a lot of them to throw around. I just think it's part of being a man not to wear them on the outside. We are after all supposed to be rational beings first and foremost, and to retain any coherence in discussion, reach valuable conclusions and accept compromises we are bound to think outside of our personal feelings on the subject, and thus it shames our gender to give in to mindless self-indulgence.

Your emotions, after all, are part of your own private little universe in the same way as your body is; flaunting either in public is nothing less than a mating call. Suffice to say I am not interested in mating, and my only advise is not to act like a woman unless you want to be one.

[/QUOTE] hah... does this make you feel more manly?

 

[Brother None]

They revealed the Kickstarter tiers: http://wasteland.inxile-entertainment.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=114

As I hinted here and there, the $50 box is cool, the $100 CE very cool, especially with the novellas.

$15 is a very low entry level. Wish they'd have made the $30 more attractive. Digital copy being Steam-only is different from the proposal I saw. A little disappointing.

 

[St. Toxic]

Only in a 1st person or close-up 3rd person it can prove difficult to grasp your bearings.

I can remember getting lost and confused in various older FPS titles, but that problem had more to do with repetitive texture-schemes and intersecting corridor map design than any inherent difficulty in navigating from a first person perspective (after all, I've been doing it all my life). In an open-world game, no matter the viewpoint, getting lost is quite impossible because wherever you go, well, there you are. Characters are still piss-easy to find; yes, you have more of an overview top down, but you can't see as far as you might in an fps, so that balances out. Actually, I don't see how first person or 3rd person can be more difficult to navigate -- if anything your brain needs to do less abstract thinking to make the jump.

Or actually, Tarant was big enough to get lost in at first.

It wasn't just that it was big, it had all this side-quest stuff you could do, meaning you had to go out of your way to talk to many of the inhabitants. Just being big is not really a problem in itself, if it's devoid of content. Still, the street and address system worked fine, in my opinion; most of us who haven't suffered brain damage have, at one point or other, been forced to navigate going by arbitrary designations. And those of us who haven't might find it useful to practice in a virtual environment.

Of course. And they are designed with people eventual emotions about every aspect of them being part of it.
Its not a primary concern in the technical part of design, thats all.

I'm pretty sure when an engine is made nobody thinks about how I might feel about it, but y'know, once it's made I do feel about it one way or the other. How about this: if we're feeling emotional about things right now, does that mean the universe was designed based on our eventual emotions about it?

Your emotional depth is relevant since youre making these assumptions based on it.

True about what AAA mass market games offer and strive for. Of course. They are designed for masses of morons after all.
But that doesnt mean that finer games do not stroke the strings of other, more refined, deeper and "smarter", more demanding "emotions".

How about an example.

By that you mean they dont need to pander to shallow most obviouss emotions in shallow stupid ways.

No, I literally mean that you don't need to take emotions into consideration. When I tell someone to go suck a cock, I do this without any consideration for their potential feelings about it. However, it doesn't prevent the person from having any feelings. If the person then goes and cries or actually goes and sucks a cock or, I don't know, attacks me, that's a response that has nothing to do with my initial intent. I don't need to manipulate people in order to get a response, the response is likely to come no matter what.

Also true.

Then what's your problem?

Is that a game?

You're saying it isn't?

Pointless to this discussion.

Sure, but this discussion is pointless. I think you're just having trouble understanding what's being said here.

hah... does this make you feel more manly?

I don't feel manly. I rationally deduce that I am.

 

[likaq]

Brother None, i have a question for you: W2 will be 2d or 3d? Do you have any information about this?