Codex Interview Wasteland 2 RPG Codex Interview - Part 2: Michael A. Stackpole

[curry]

This thread is so wonderfully Codex. A little bit of intelligence hidden somewhere underneath the piles of butthurt and retardation.

Ironically, that's a very butthurt thing to say

 

[Brother None]

Of course. I'm just piling on until we reach the obligated butthurt quota.

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

It doesn't write anything about making the players feel like hell for killing a hostile animal.

I know, but you're ignoring the accessibility issue. Accessibility has been increasing every year since the bbs days. It literally takes anyone < 60 seconds to:

alt tab -> open a browser -> Google 'game' + 'walkthrough' -> F3 -> password 'open this door' -> Answer -> alt-tab -> type password.

Because downloading a .txt file took so much more effort.

I thought that most of players simply didn't have BBS access back then?

 

[thesisko]

I thought that most of players simply didn't have BBS access back then?

Indeed, but they were filled with complaints about how they had made adventure games obsolete - and their users cursed the day they first got their modems - the last day they had been able to enjoy a good puzzle.

 

[Gregz]

And I'm still missing that one line from you that would at least validate your own belief in this bullshit: "Adding puzzles to a game makes me less likely to buy it".

I'm not trolling. If I knew a game had puzzles I'd still play it, provided the reviews were good enough.

Portal had puzzles, and like all games I tried it based on the strength of its reviews...and the reviews were spot on, great game. Puzzles done correctly for today's environment, like those in Portal, are awesome fun...but password puzzles, door codes, mazes, riddles, sequence puzzles...all of the old-school cRPG trappings are now easily bypassed due to ease of information access. That is boring. That's the only point I've been trying to highlight...and it's so obvious I'm genuinely surprised at how resistant some people are to the idea. I can only think it's a defense mechanism, or denial.

I remember trying to find game clues in the BBS days. There might have been 2 or 3 game-centric BBSs in my area code (you couldn't use long distance or Dad would raise hell). They were popular because you could download cracks and games there too, so you'd dial out and usually get a busy signal. So maybe you'd wait until 1am, finally get in, upload a file for an hour in order to get download credits on that BBS, spend 30 minutes navigating the convoluted custom file structure, and see half a dozen crappy 1-paragraph 'spoilers' of games you don't care about. But, in the extremely rare case you managed to get lucky you might see: Wasteland - "There's a toaster in the graveyard." Great...but where is the Onyx key? 3+ hours down the drain, back to the drawing board. So you gave up, and played the game straight come hell or high water (Because your gaming budget is shot for the next month, and this is all you've got to play).

Compare that to today...Google returns 20+ separate results, huge FAQs, complete walkthroughs, console codes, screen caps with diagrams, youtube vids. It's a completely different world.

Again, there's no debate here. Fast/easy access to copious amounts of well documented spoilers is a massive factor that significantly alters cRPG gameplay (as described upthread).

Personally I think it's a problem worth trying to solve, you may disagree...that's fine.

 

[thesisko]

Sorry, finding it hard to follow your ramblings. You found puzzles boring or is it boring that you're able to bypass them? If it's the former then I've heard you can bypass life as well - must mean it's boring.

You're really making no sense whatsoever. Any part of Portal, like most other games can be bypassed with zero effort. Usually you can just hit a key to bring up a console and type in a single command to give yourself infinite lives, skip to the next level or whatever. New Vegas, for instance, has a one-word command that teleports you to the next quest objective.

As for the scenario you describe, it didn't sound like you had fun at all, wasting hours of your time trying to cheat on a game doesn't seem like something one would like to go back to.

 

[Gregz]

Sorry, finding it hard to follow your ramblings.

Not a problem...unless English is your first language.

You found puzzles boring or is it boring that you're able to bypass them?

It's boring to know I have the option of bypassing them. Puzzles are fun, spoilage isn't. On the flip side, being frustrated for hours over a puzzle isn't fun either...until you solve it...then it's even more rewarding because of the sense of relief and/or accomplishment. So it's actually rather complicated. It's not A or B, A and B are two sides of the same coin.

You're really making no sense whatsoever.

One possibility, the other is that you don't understand what I'm saying.

Any part of Portal, like most other games can be bypassed with zero effort. Usually you can just hit a key to bring up a console and type in a single command to give yourself infinite lives, skip to the next level or whatever.

OK, this might be where we're having the disconnect. It's a subtle point. I'll copypasta what I wrote earlier:

A few posts up, I mentioned Portal 1 and Portal 2. I really enjoyed those games, and they are generally quite popular. But...paradox...they are puzzle-based...wouldn't people use spoilers to get through the game and self-ruin the experience? Nope. Why? The puzzles are relatively trivial at the start, and as you advance from one level to the next the puzzles 'teach' the player how to solve the next level. The spoiler is built into the game, but the player experiences it as learning instead of cheating. So the illusion of accomplishment is maintained for the player. It's a clever way of solving the problem. So I'm not saying puzzles have no place in games today, or that it's an impossible problem to solve. It's just much harder to do right in today's environment.

New Vegas, for instance, has a one-word command that teleports you to the next quest objective.

Yep, and if you remember that word through natural gameplay, or wrote it down, it works. Immersion doesn't break, you feel 'clever' and move on. Most of the time that's not how it works though. DE:HR had lots of doorcodes, and the 'minigame' to crack them was tedious and boring...just like reading every PDA in every desk drawer in every building became. Lots of people alt-tabbed out to get those codes, including me. If the mini-game was engaging in the least (i.e. the designers did their jobs well), no alt-tab, no breaking immersion, fun game. Sadly this kind of shoddy design is the rule nowadays rather than the exception.

 

[thesisko]

Fast/easy access to copious amounts of well documented spoilers is a massive factor that significantly alters cRPG gameplay (as described upthread).

It only alter the gameplay for those who prefer to skip it. Not a problem.

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

They could add a walkthrough for spoilerfags.

 

[Gregz]

It's just like save scumming. Save scumming ruins the game! If you have no self control and always cheat at solitaire. Some people can't resist, others have no temptation. But unfortunately instead of catering to their real fans devs tend to do everything possible not to exclude anyone.

That pretty much hits the nail on the head, but are Codexers 'real fans'?

Poll: Do you use Spoilers/Walkthroughs/FAQs to progress through a game?

Most people appear to be choosing:

- Only when I'm frustrated or bored and want to move on.

That indicates walkthroughs have become an integral part of gaming for most players, which is a seachange from how it was in the 80s. felipepepe gives a good description of how it was then vs. how it is now.

 

[thesisko]

The reason that vote is dominant has nothing to with walkthroughs or the Internet. It's the only sane option. You're basically asking:

Which of these two games would you prefer to play?
1. "A game that entertains me"
2. "A game that frustrates and bores me"

And if you read the replies, no one shares your absurd opinion that walkthroughs "ruin" the game for them. In fact, most people find them helpful.

 

[Beautiful Clown Painting]

The project is saved! One of the titans of game design is now giving them pointers on their official forums:

http://wasteland.inxile-entertainment.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=102

 

[St. Toxic]

Prosper needs to be lead designer. NAOW!!!

 

[TwinkieGorilla]

That's why I don't care about the double fine game. You'll get another dumbed down game aimed at kids and housewives just like every other game by that company.

Whoa. Skyway taught you how to future, didn't he?

 

[Infinitron]

Brian Fargo interview on RPS: http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2012/03/12/post-post-nuclear-roleplaying-brian-fargo-on-wasteland-2/

 

[Excidium]

felipepepe gives a good description of how it was then vs. how it is now.

Like there wasn't a dozen magazines with walkthroughs and cheats for every popular release back then. Also phone services and even TV shows...the internet just replaced everything.

 

[Phelot]

Didn't read the whole debate, but I see where Gregz is coming from. I don't agree necessarily that the internet is the reason for the lack of puzzles in games, but I definitely know the feeling that he and Jasede are talking about when a puzzle or boss or whatever was finally defeated on your own after many tries or frustration. Some people are able to resist looking up a solution online, others get bored easily. Not an excuse to dumb games down, though.

 

[Crooked Bee]

Meanwhile, Brian Fargo on Twitter:

#Wasteland 2 update! We have been approved by #kickstarter and we go live tomorrow. I will post the link the minute I get it.​

Great news!

 

[felipepepe]

felipepepe gives a good description of how it was then vs. how it is now.

Like there wasn't a dozen magazines with walkthroughs and cheats for every popular release back then. Also phone services and even TV shows...the internet just replaced everything.

Depends on were you lived. Here in Brazil we only got a few game monthly game magazines in the 90's, and they covered mostly recent (and popular) console releases, and were quite rare in smaller cities and some states.

I lived in a small rural town, game guides and such only started to appear there around 96-97. I remeber a friend coming to school with a magazine with huge walkthrough for Chrono Trigger, and we skipping school to cross the town and Xerox some pages of it, like it were a treasure map. Before that it was all about trading info at school or phoning a older cousin that lived in the "big city" and knew more about game than me. It was completly impossible to ANY hint for games like Monkey Island, Day of the Tentacle, King Quest, Civilization, early Final Fantasy games, Populous, Might and Magic III...

Kids these days have no idea of how glorious and god-like it felt to go play Mortal Kombat II at your friends house and pull out a Fatality.

 

[Excidium]

felipepepe gives a good description of how it was then vs. how it is now.

Like there wasn't a dozen magazines with walkthroughs and cheats for every popular release back then. Also phone services and even TV shows...the internet just replaced everything.

Depends on were you lived. Here in Brazil we only got a few game monthly game magazines in the 90's, and they covered mostly recent (and popular) console releases, and were quite rare in smaller cities and some states.

I lived in a small rural town, game guides and such only started to appear there around 96-97. I remeber a friend coming to school with a magazine with huge walkthrough for Chrono Trigger, and we skipping school to cross the town and Xerox some pages of it, like it were a treasure map. Before that it was all about trading info at school or phoning a older cousin that lived in the "big city" and knew more about game than me. It was completly impossible to ANY hint for games like Monkey Island, Day of the Tentacle, King Quest, Civilization, early Final Fantasy games, Populous, Might and Magic III...

Kids these days have no idea of how glorious and god-like it felt to go play Mortal Kombat II at your friends house and pull out a Fatality.

I had a huge Mortal Kombat III poster with all (most?) fatalities.

Granted that was around mid to late 90's like you mention, but then again, everything came later here in BRland. 16-bit era only started at like 1994.

 

[felipepepe]

Forgot you were BR too...

I had a huge Mortal Kombat III poster with all (most?) fatalities.

Fucking cheater, I bet you also had one of those GameSharks too later.

 

[Excidium]

Forgot you were BR too...

I had a huge Mortal Kombat III poster with all (most?) fatalities.

Fucking cheater, I bet you also had one of those GameSharks too later.

Lies and slander! M:

 

[TwinkieGorilla]

I fucking clicked on my alert for this?

Fucking hell.

 

[TwinkieGorilla]

DAMMIT.

 

[Crooked Bee]

Michael Stackpole has put up a post on his blog on Wasteland and Wasteland 2:

March was a fantastic, even life-changing, month. Brian Fargo started the Wasteland 2 Kickstarter project while I was in Las Vegas. First I knew of it was an early morning call from Brian. The project had been live for all of three hours at that point and had raised over $250,000! Within 36 hours it reached its goal of $900,000 and within 48 hours cracked $1 million. As I write this the total was $1.98 million, with 11 days to run.

At the GTS show I’d been talking up Kickstarter because a number of game companies had used it successfully to fund games. I’ve contributed to a number of those efforts. I was talking to folks to learn more about putting a program together (for a print edition of In Hero Years… I’m Dead), and then telling game retailers that they wanted to monitor Kickstarter as a place to see new game projects. Seeing what folks backed, and having “retailer friendly” pledge levels for games, is a great way for game stores to participate in these bootstrapping efforts.

Then Wasteland 2 kicks off, dwarfing any effort the game industry had tried. I suddenly went from being a guy who was interested in Kickstarter to being the Kickstarter Guru. (This meant I pointed people to the folks I’d talked to and learned so much from about Kickstarter.)

I am incredibly excited about the Wasteland 2 project. For those of you who don’t know, before I wrote books, I designed games. The original Wasteland was a fantastic experience. Alan Pavlish, Brian Fargo, Ken St. Andre and I got together and scoped out a computer roleplaying game the like of which had never been seen before. We did things in there which were groundbreaking and yet, in the intervening quarter century, have seldom been visited again. Because we were doing something entirely new, we had no boundaries, no limits, and we pushed the game for all we could, bearing in mind that we were limited to machines with 64K RAM.

I remember tons of phone conversations with Alan that began because Ken had called him, tried to get Alan to do something, and they just weren’t communicating well. Ken would call me to vent. I’d listen, figure out what it was he wanted to do, and mentally translate it into something a programmer could work with. Then I’d call Alan, we’d mull things over, and not only come away with something that would let Ken do what he wanted, but a whole bunch more. This is precisely why, in Wasteland, you see a door that won’t open and you don’t have the key, you can pick the lock, you can shoot it off, you can blow it up (and so much more). If I recall correctly, there were 14 different ways to open doors, and depending what you did to open a door, you’d find different things on the other side.

Wasteland’s strongest point was that actions had consequences. Radical concept, I know. Because of that, how a player approached the game would determine the result he’d get. It allowed us to provide a different gaming experience for different players. It required more than just a hack and slash mentality—sure, you could get to the end that way, but if you used skills and smarts, the path would be different, and often more rewarding.

This is what so excites me about Wasteland II. I remember all the things we wanted to do but couldn’t, simply because of the limits of machines back then. The game’s scope will be huge, and the things players can do, the strategies that will win the game, will likewise expand. Being able to add atmosphere through music and voice acting will make the game that more immersive. In the original game we could only supply a small slice of a world, but now we’ll be able to provide a vast landscape overflowing with adventure and discovery.

Needless to say, I am incredibly psyched about working on this project. I’ll certainly be posting more updates as things move along. This is going to be a blast.​

http://www.michaelastackpole.com/?p=3095