What was the first cRPG with dialogue trees?

[Avonaeon]

I've become a bit obsessive about this question, but trying to pinpoint when the common trend in RPGs went from keyword dialogue, like in the older Elder Scrolls games or Realms of Arkania, to dialogue trees.
The earliest game I can find is Fallout.

Does the hivemind know?

 

[DragoFireheart]

Wasteland?

 

[Luzur]

Ultima i guess.

 

[SCO]

Ultima is not a tree, but a graph. In most situations you can get back at the beginning of the conversation/graph by reclicking one of the default options (name, job).

 

[Admiral jimbob]

Dark Sun's the earliest I've played that had them, but I wouldn't imagine it was the first.

 

[DraQ]

Ultima is not a tree, but a graph. In most situations you can get back at the beginning of the conversation/graph by reclicking one of the default options (name, job).

Like in most dialogue "trees", actually.

 

[made]

Dialogue trees and keywords aren't mutually exclusive. Perhaps you meant to ask when they switched from keywords to full-length replies in the style of graphic adventures.

 

[DraQ]

Dialogue trees and keywords aren't mutually exclusive.

QFT.

They are actually the best combination ever, since keywords/parser are much better than treeswhen it comes to handling great majority of generic dialogue and questions, while trees only work well for individualized conversations with defined flow, but then they can be absolutely stellar - looping, then partially retracing good part of the tree to get answer to a different question, again and again results in retardedly artificial dialogue and a lot of pointless clicking.

 

[Excidium]

Which games had both? I can only remember Fallout.

 

[Azrael the cat]

Dialogue trees and keywords aren't mutually exclusive. Perhaps you meant to ask when they switched from keywords to full-length replies in the style of graphic adventures.

Graphic adventures used to use keywords as well - in fact, that's where crpgs got the keyword system from (that, and the infocom text adventures). From memory, dialogue trees started appearing in both adventure games and crpgs around the same time.

 

[DraQ]

Which games had both? I can only remember Fallout.

Morrowind had provisions for using both, but didn't really pursue the idea of trees to any measurable degree.

 

[mondblut]

Ultima Underworld 1 sets the date as early as 1992.

 

[Forest Dweller]

I think Fallout was the first one that had dialogue trees where they made an effort to make it sound like actual dialogue.

 

[Sceptic]

I think mondblut's got it and the first CRPG was UW1. As for adventure games, Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade was 1989. I don't think Maniac Mansion had trees (or any kind of input in dialog). I wonder if Last Crusade was the first game to have dialog trees...

I think Fallout was the first one that had dialogue trees where they made an effort to make it sound like actual dialogue.

Dark Sun did it 3 years earlier, UW1 did it 5 years earlier. Fallout is the New Shit by comparison

 

[MMXI]

I can't think of an older example than Ultima Underworld. Shattered Lands did it a year later, too. Before that most games either used a key word system, text parsing or conversational stance options. Pretty simplistic in comparison. I'd say that Ultima IV was the first step up in terms of conversations, by including a text parser that took in key words. After that, Ultima Underworld took it further by having actual dialogue options that we see in Fallout, Baldur's Gate, Planescape: Torment and the like.

Of course, the final step up to perfection was Mass Effect, with its fantastic and innovative dialogue wheel.

 

[Excidium]

final step? No way.

The final step will be going back to keywords, but this time using the Kinect speech recognition. "Lightsaber, ON!"

 

[Sceptic]

Before that most games either used a key word system, text parsing or conversational stance options. Pretty simplistic in comparison.

I don't think they're simplistic, they just serve a different purpose. UW2 illustrates this point really well by using both trees and the U4-like keywords. The dialog trees are for holding actual conversation, meeting people, and so on, but then you can use keywords with many NPC's to ask for specific information. The keyword usage was particularly interesting when the word you needed to use made no sense in context of the conversation or what the NPC was revealing to you, but you knew to use it because of information you had previously acquired elsewhere. Take Altara; she's a sleeper agent and will obviously not hint in any way at her true allegiances, so there's no dialog option to call her out or anything, but if you freed Bishop then you know to ask, and can do so through typing the keyword. I really like this approach.

I'd say that Ultima IV was the first step up in terms of conversations, by including a text parser that took in key words. After that, Ultima Underworld took it further by having actual dialogue options that we see in Fallout, Baldur's Gate, Planescape: Torment and the like.

There was also an intermediate, of sorts, that you see in Ultima 7: keywords that you pick from a list rather than type. Access was also using a similar system in their adventures around the same time (Countdown and Martian Memorandum, reappears in the later Tex Murphy games too). It saves on the note-taking, but it's also sometimes annoying not to be able to pick a keyword because the game deems you're not supposed to know about it yet, even if you've managed to figure it out. Though funnily enough I've had it happen to me in previous games (like U4-6) but never in U7 or the Access games, so they must've put some extra effort in the design to ensure the only way you'd know to use a keyword ahead of time was if you were reading a walkthrough.

 

[Joe Krow]

Which is an RPG mechanic?

A. Dialogue Tree
B. Oak Tree
C. Skill Tree

Which could easily be talked into doing gay shit (without beer)?

A. Planscape: Torment
B. The Temple of Elemental Evil
C. RPG Codex

Answers:

1. C
2. A

 

[MMXI]

I don't think they're simplistic, they just serve a different purpose. UW2 illustrates this point really well by using both trees and the U4-like keywords. The dialog trees are for holding actual conversation, meeting people, and so on, but then you can use keywords with many NPC's to ask for specific information. The keyword usage was particularly interesting when the word you needed to use made no sense in context of the conversation or what the NPC was revealing to you, but you knew to use it because of information you had previously acquired elsewhere. Take Altara; she's a sleeper agent and will obviously not hint in any way at her true allegiances, so there's no dialog option to call her out or anything, but if you freed Bishop then you know to ask, and can do so through typing the keyword. I really like this approach.

Bad wording on my part. I meant primitive. But even that wouldn't be correct. I actually like hybrid conversation stystems and I think that they should be explored more.

There was also an intermediate, of sorts, that you see in Ultima 7: keywords that you pick from a list rather than type. Access was also using a similar system in their adventures around the same time (Countdown and Martian Memorandum, reappears in the later Tex Murphy games too). It saves on the note-taking, but it's also sometimes annoying not to be able to pick a keyword because the game deems you're not supposed to know about it yet, even if you've managed to figure it out. Though funnily enough I've had it happen to me in previous games (like U4-6) but never in U7 or the Access games, so they must've put some extra effort in the design to ensure the only way you'd know to use a keyword ahead of time was if you were reading a walkthrough.

I didn't count that because it's basically the same as giving keywords through a text parser, but with a requirement on the game keeping track of what your character knows. No shortcuts on replays, for example. It's more of an evolution of what Ultima IV did rather than something completely different such as conversation stances and flowing dialogue.

 

[Avonaeon]

Dialogue trees and keywords aren't mutually exclusive. Perhaps you meant to ask when they switched from keywords to full-length replies in the style of graphic adventures.

That is what I meant, thanks

And I'll have to check out the Ultima Underworld games,,

The keyword usage was particularly interesting when the word you needed to use made no sense in context of the conversation or what the NPC was revealing to you, but you knew to use it because of information you had previously acquired elsewhere. Take Altara; she's a sleeper agent and will obviously not hint in any way at her true allegiances, so there's no dialog option to call her out or anything, but if you freed Bishop then you know to ask, and can do so through typing the keyword. I really like this approach.

You had the option for this in Fallout as well, though I don't know if it worked, because I always just stuck to the trees.

EDIT: But it still seems that after Fallout, the keyword thing just sort of died out, with the exception of stuff like Morrowind and Wizardry 8.

 

[SCO]

final step? No way.

The final step will be going back to keywords, but this time using the Kinect speech recognition. "Lightsaber, ON!"

Plausible.

Spoiler

"I want to be a dragon"

 

[mondblut]

Before that most games either used a key word system, text parsing or conversational stance options.

Actually, before that most games used static signposts triggered for "dialogue events". GB series, M&M, you name it. At best you were only occasionally given a couple of buttons to pick a response from, typically the "yes" and "no" ones

Oh, and keywords >>>>>>>>>>>>> dialogue trees.

 

[MMXI]

Actually, before that most games used static signposts triggered for "dialogue events". GB series, M&M, you name it. At best you were only occasionally given a couple of buttons to pick a response from, typically the "yes" and "no" ones

Clearly I was talking about games with some sort of dialogue system.

Oh, and keywords >>>>>>>>>>>>> dialogue trees.

But keywords are very adventure gamey. Conversation stances >>>>>>>>>>> keywords.

 

[Mastermind]

Dialogue wheels are functionally indistinguishable from dialogue trees.

 

[Sceptic]

But keywords are very adventure gamey.

So are dialog trees (see Last Crusade)

For that matter so are conversation stances. See Kyrandia 3, UKM and Pandora Directive, Countdown, Sam & Max Hit the Road, and so on.

Not that there's anything wrong with this...