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What's an RPG? - the search for clue continues!

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
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http://www.elderscrolls.com/forums/inde ... pic=175700

I'm not implying that Oblivion is in any way a FPS, but it has been noted that certain action elements have snuck in.

Several people have commented bitterly that Oblivion will be a good game, but a bad RPG.

I guess I'm asking at what point, precisely a FPS like say HL2 beomes an RPG?

Is it the inclusion of stats? How many stats? Do they have to be overtly statty or can they be hidden? Do you need character customisation? Would choosing between three pre set characters be enough?
3 pre set characters? Yep, that's the secret ingredient!

I don't think there is a dividing line. If it were all stats, it would be an rpg most definately. If it were all skill, it would be an fps (or any other action game) for sure. but when they mix and match things like stats that are based on how well you do things, then it gets fuzzy. I don't really care what Oblivion is, I just want it!
Poor dumb bastard.

There are many types or RPG, it doesnt have to be a turned based system to fall into the RPG catagory.
I love when people say turned based. It's so cute.

The thing with the RPG genre is that it's so hard to define.
Odds are, if you can't define it, it's probably not an RPG.

In industry terms I would assume that the label RPG carries weight only if a game has character development, plot/story, and the ability to equip items that enhance ones abilities.
lol That's a good one.

TES defines the FPR genre. Like someone else said: First-Person Roleplaying. It is it's own genre and the industry should recognize that.
I wonder if it's even legal to sell games to mentally challenged?

What I'm trying to say is thatif the player feels like he is not just playing the game but in the game, I would consider that to be an RPG, stats or not.
All those tax dollars... Wasted on the education system...

We all know traditionally, RPG was meant in a hard core fashion... need to eat, drink, sleep and perform lots of things that had nothing to do with combat and more with "housekeeping" your character.
We do? It did?

For older games check out Blood, which ran on the Doom engine but which was pretty much an RPG.
That's what I always thought too. If you think about it, Doom and Quake are also RPGs. What was that definition? First Person Role-Playing!

Great topic.

An FPS is an RPG when ROLE PLAYING is introduced. :D

Stats, etc, all that extra stuff means nothing. RPG = Role Playing Game.

Sure, stats make games somewhat interesting, because you build your guy, customize him how you see fit, whatever. But are these things NECESSARY? No.

Stats just have a gameplay effect. But when the gameplay and combat becomes stats, that's just boring. That's why an FPS/RPG like Deus Ex was so enjoyable. And that's why Oblivion is going to be so entertaining.

Anyways, I've played way more than my share of stat based RPGs, and I can say that most games do it horribly. Deus Ex and Morrowind are exceptions to this, because the stat systems were quite advanced; Morrowind's for the use = skill system and Deus Ex's for the impact on combat/gamplay that coincides with player skill.
MW had an advanced stat system? I'm afraid to ask what "stat-based RPGs" this fella played before.

Several people have commented bitterly that Oblivion will be a good game, but a bad RPG.
Who said that?
A lot of the codex guys
Which ones are they? The people who worship Fallout or is that RPGdot guys?
What an idiot.
 

Naked_Lunch

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In industry terms I would assume that the label RPG carries weight only if a game has character development, plot/story, and the ability to equip items that enhance ones abilities.
Would a gun count?

HALO: THE RPG FOR THE NEXT NEXT-GENERATION
 

Tintin

Arbiter
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Jun 28, 2005
Messages
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What an idiot.

It's basically true. Replace "Fallout" with "Jesus" and RPGCodex would be a madly pro-christian forum. "Just look at what Jesus did. Jesus was really the only one who did it properly. I think for a proper example, we should turn to how Jesus did it"

Anyways the first few comments didn't seem so bad...
 

Micmu

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ALIEN BASE-3
Yeah, the young console audience alright. "Every game is a role-playing one now because you play a role...a Shooter."
 

Sarvis

Erudite
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Messages
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Location
Buffalo, NY
Tintin said:
What an idiot.

It's basically true. Replace "Fallout" with "Jesus" and RPGCodex would be a madly pro-christian forum. "Just look at what Jesus did. Jesus was really the only one who did it properly. I think for a proper example, we should turn to how Jesus did it"

*snicker*

The new, DEFENITIVE visual representation of the RPG Codex and it's most diverse members

Aww... I didn't make the cut...
 

TheGreatGodPan

Arbiter
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Jul 21, 2005
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Jesus was an awesome guy, but he didn't make any RPGs. So there, we have to turn to Fallout.
 

Drakron

Arcane
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May 19, 2005
Messages
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TheGreatGodPan said:
Jesus was an awesome guy, but he didn't make any RPGs. So there, we have to turn to Fallout.

Of course not, Afonso Henrriques did (he also made Jesus).
 

Goliath

Arcane
Zionist Agent
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Messages
17,830
It doesn't suprise me that TES fanboys have trouble telling FPS and RPG games apart.
I also like all the comments about how genre defintions become "blurred" because games are more "sophisticated" nowadays. The reality is that everyone makes stinkin' 3D action games mixing in elements from strategy games, RPGs, simluation games etc.

I think some of these cabbage IQ freaks have read too many Codex threads BTW. The popular Codex definition that RPGs are somehow about "playing a role" is the BS they repeat there. That's why they have no idea what RPG even means. Hell, in almost every game you're "playing a role". In Doom you played a role (the role of that soldier dude), in Monkey Island you played a role, etc. If you want real "role play" join a LARP group at your art school.
RPGs are all about "roll play", adventure games based on character stats! There's a quest, and there are millions of ways to complete it (I mean reaching the final goal). For example on that long trip to Mt. Doom my party will need lots of food. If I have a hunter or a woodelf with hunting skills in my party he will take care of it. However maybe I chose a rogue with gambling skills instead. In that case he will have to make a lot of money that way so that my party can buy enough food for the long trip. Everything depends on character stats. The game is different everytime because the player decides which characters to chose and how to train them etc. Such games are RPGs, first-person shooters with some stats aren't. First-person shooters without any stats to speak of where you just "role-play" instead of "roll play" aren't RPGs at all, not even remotely.
It's time that people stop spreading that non-sense that CRPGs are about "playing a role", otherwise those Xboxers will declare 90% of all games RPGs and they would even be right given that idiotic definition.
 

theverybigslayer

Liturgist
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Messages
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Port Hope
Naked_Lunch said:
In industry terms I would assume that the label RPG carries weight only if a game has character development, plot/story, and the ability to equip items that enhance ones abilities.
Would a gun count?

HALO: THE RPG FOR THE NEXT NEXT-GENERATION


deus ex: the rpg for the now-generation
HALO: THE RPG FOR THE NEXT NEXT-GENERATION
 

Twinfalls

Erudite
Joined
Jan 4, 2005
Messages
3,903
Update - further comments in that thread:

In all technicality, the definition of an RPG is an interactive experience in which you take up the role of a character separate from yourself. Therefore, any game at all in which you play a definable entity is a role-playing game (almost all shooters, action games, etc.) Those experiences employing obvious game statistics are simply more methodically oriented than, say, Serious Sam 2.

A fps is a rpg when the guns a sword.

Zelda is an RPG with no stats or leveling at all. The thing that makes an RPG an RPG is the Role Playing aspect. If you can play a character than evolves in any way, you have an RPG. Also dungeons...You can't have an RPG without dungeons.

there's some motherfuckin sig material here
 

theverybigslayer

Liturgist
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Port Hope
Finally the codex guys can learn what is a rpg. When I saw the top ten rpgs list I realized you know nothing about rpgs. Very good, go and read the truth on that forum. You may ask some guy to come here and explain the things for you!
 

Greatatlantic

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Feb 21, 2005
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The Heart of It All
I, never one to shy away from a challenge will attempt to define an RPG.

1. The game is governed by a Rule Set. Simple stats are not sufficient for a game to be an RPG, then things like Tony Hawk and Madden get called RPGs. The best example is a ruleset taken straight from a PnP game, but something that does the same job is also acceptable, like SPECIAL.

2. Character Customization: Gun or butter desicions must be available that affect how well the character can accomplish goals with in the game world. This is part of the ruleset.

3. Character Development: Through out the game Character Customization continues, as oppose to ending once the gameplay begins. Sort of like having the choice to pick Subzero wouldn't make a game an RPG, since then the character is static.

4. Freedom in the Gameworld: Not infinite freedom, but the certainly more freedom then simple platformers or arcade shooters.

5. A Narrative- Not even a story necessarily, just something to give a purpose and a reason for the above, so as to make it an RPG as oppose to a numbers game.

With these 5 elements I think I can define what is RPG. It certainly doesn't exclude Oblivion, though it probably excludes Invisible War. It definitely excludes Zelda style games and some Final Fantasies. Then there are games like Pokemon, of which I've only played the original version. Is it an RPG? I'd say so, though one clearly aimed at a younger audience. Alright, its late and I'm rambling. Got to get some sleep.

EDIT, Hah, check out this pic somebody on the EDS forums made. If I didn't want to go through the bother of creating an account I'd post my definition there. I don't think anyone has even thought to say a rule set might be needed.

http://img363.imageshack.us/img363/2114/rpg5by.jpg
 

Surlent

Liturgist
Joined
Jul 21, 2004
Messages
825
You know this is all the fun, but it would be real killer if those quotes were made by bethesda devs. :)
 

Goliath

Arcane
Zionist Agent
Joined
Jul 18, 2004
Messages
17,830
bryce777 said:
Actually, I can imagine it's doug henning...it's a WORLD OF MAGIC, AND MAGIC MEANS ILLUSIONS!

TES 8 developer interview said:
Let's face it - when you talk about movement in an RPG, you're talking about going forward.

And he added:
This whole "left" and "right" thing is way too complex for the casual gamers we are targetting."
 

Twinfalls

Erudite
Joined
Jan 4, 2005
Messages
3,903
LOL copx!

Actual quotes:

Interview with Ted Peterson, Daggerfall Lead Designer

Question:
Then came Daggerfall in 1996.The game had huge goals, considering the state of RPGs at the time. The developers of Morrowind said theat MW will be what DF should have been if the technology had not been an issue at the time. The thing you wanted to implement the most, that didn’t make it in?

Ted Peterson
No one wanted all the important NPCs to be sprites who just yabbered their quests and never developed a relationship with the player.

Todd Howard, February 2005 interview:

Fallout really set the standard for me on believable people, good dialogue, and character choice and consequence. With Elder Scrolls, we do aim for something enormous, and we simply can't focus on say - 20 to 40 really deep strong characters and just do them.

Ted Peterson:

We wanted a complex series of adventures leading to multiple resolutions.

I could go on and on. All of those rumors you hear about in the game, that this faction is warring with that faction, was meant to have real world consequences. You were originally going to be able to go and see a city under siege, but it was an impossibly complex task to work out.

And definitely, to me, most regrettably, we fell short on the multiple resolutions of the game.

Todd Howard:
I would keep Daggerfall just the way it is. Tons of procedurally determined garbage, because that was what it was, and that was great. We don't want to do that, it's been done, but it's great that it was done in Daggerfall.

Bethesda Softworks - we take Ambition, and make it ERODE!!
 

yipsl

Scholar
Joined
Sep 11, 2005
Messages
223
Location
Central Texas
IMHO, the reason there's blurring nowadays isn't due to sophistication, that takes place only in the sense that newer hardware is more sophisticated than earlier hardware and can accomplish more, but because non-roleplaying game developers realized that roleplaying has advantages.

It's not 100% about "roll playing", after all, I knew pen and paper gamers who would not touch a complex CRPG like Magic Candle II, Betrayal at Krondor or RoA: Star Trail because they didn't think computer RPGs fit the bill, but they played strategy games and first person shooters. Only when I introduced them to Arena or Daggerfall did they relent and play what I consider the best CRPG series.

Games ported directly from pen and paper rules can run into problems as RPGs and be just as much a hybrid as any Diabloish action RPG. Icewind Dale was RPG lite in many respects and Baldurs Gate felt more like a strategy game with a squad using RPG rules. It was my first experience of the whole party wandering poorly into the fog of war and talking back to my mouse clicks like a peasant in Warcraft. Baldurs Gate 2 had a better storyline and more of an RPG feel.

I never had any doubts when playing Betrayal at Krondor, Magic Candle II or Daggerfall that they were RPGs. Perhaps the best port of a pen and paper game was the Realms of Arkania series, and that was truly "roll playing" (ie catching colds, missing in combat often, failed spells).

I have several posts in that thread and I think it's still one of the better threads there in recent weeks. It might have some newbie awe of today's sophistication vs. old school charm, but it delves into the murky and controversial aspects of how FPS games seem to shade into RPGs and RPGs seem to acquire more action over the past few generations.

When one poster quipped that FPS meant shooters, I replied:

"FPS is a category designation. It started in SF/horror titles. It also fits Dark Messiah of Might and Magic and it fits Battlespire as well. Yet, RPG gamers were attracted to Battlespire and will be attracted to Dark Messiah. It's the multiplayer coop and deathmatch aspects, the very linear storyline and the use of discrete levels that places them in the FPS genre.

Roleplaying elements are only added to customize an FPS chassis with these two games. Just as an FPS does not have to be SF or military and involve guns, so too does an RPG not have to involve sword and sorcery. Since terms like First Person Hack and Slash are unwieldy, we can call the whole genre FPS when it's first person. When it's third person, it's action RPG or RPG Lite. Yes, they do all blend into each other but in the purest forms they're recognizable."

Twinfalls, the Oblivion devs are taking two steps forward and one step back in many ways. They need the eye candy for this hardware generation, but they are needlessly mainstreaming to an audience that likes the roleplaying stylings of GTA:SA.

Some of what they would have liked in Daggerfall seems to be in Oblivion. Kvatch is under siege and destroyed by Daedra. Russian beta screenshots (before Bethsoft made them pull the screens) showed a refugee in a camp who said she was lucky to be alive. They could have done more if Oblivion had not been tied to the 360 release and given another year. We'll read Todd or Gavin say in a TES V preview interview:

Q: "What would you have liked to do more in Oblivion?"

A: "More guilds, more weapons, more choice in the massive world we imagined as a sequel to Morrowind. We didn't have enough time and we relied on polls to decide cuts, which we aren't doing this time around now that Pete's moved on to greener pastuers at Borden Dairies"
 

Twinfalls

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Kvatch is under siege as part of the linear MQ. It gets razed by the DEMONZ, in the same exact way, every time you play the game. It is not a variable province under siege by a faction - meaning you could join sides, as envisaged by Ted Peterson.

BTW, Why does Pete always get so much stick? - he's just the PR guy.
 

Diogo Ribeiro

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Lisboa, Portugal
In all technicality, the definition of an RPG is an interactive experience in which you take up the role of a character separate from yourself. Therefore, any game at all in which you play a definable entity is a role-playing game (almost all shooters, action games, etc.)

Every game is an interactive experience in which you take the role of a character, avatar or form, with differing levels of control over it. Pacman is not an RPG, even if it's beyond anyone's doubt that I control Pacman and the game is an interactive experience. Same would apply to Doom and the soldier, or even a standard bout of Tetris and the falling blocks. Either he claims no other game provides such an experience, or he claims all games are RPGs. Both assessments are obviously ill founded.

And, if an RPG is a game where you take the role of a character separate from yourself, then how can he include 'almost all shooters' when shooters are games which never allow you to play a character separate from yourself given they need you - and your reflexes - to play? Unlike the abstraction of merely overseeing the actions of a character defined by a given number of skills and attributes that you mostly find in CRPGs, shooters can never detach from you as you phisically control the avatar. How can a game allow me to play the role of a character separate from myself when it needs >myself < to play?
 

Twinfalls

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Messages
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It would have been more easily understood if 'Role Playing Game' had been 'Roles Playing Game', so the ankle-biters had some clue that you must be able to choose between a number of roles, and the game must give you meaningful choice which fleshes out those roles.

" 'Character Roles' Playing Game" might be even better, so there's also a clue that it is the character's skills which determine outcomes, not your personal twitch skills.
 

theverybigslayer

Liturgist
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May 25, 2004
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Port Hope
rpg definition:
1. more furniture in the houses
2. more talk with more boring npcs
this is what i have learned on rpgcodex forums
 

Twinfalls

Erudite
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Jan 4, 2005
Messages
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Well I hope you put that to good use next time, Mr Bradley erm I mean 'theverybigslayer'.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
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Messages
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Another gem:

Seriously though, a reasonable char. creator and further customization in-game (which armor you wear for example) makes it an rpg, because there's a choice to make.
 

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