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What's an RPG? - the search for clue continues!
- Thread starter Vault Dweller
- Start date
Sarvis
Erudite
Kraszu said:
How many options do you have?
Your answer: No.
Good work.
Oh yeah, and by the way I also dealt with the making a number aspect of this when I pointed out the limited surface area for you to use colors in.
It's STILL not infinite, because you run out of room to put the colors on. To illustrate, if the thinnest a stripe can be is 1", and the shirt is 32" tall then you have 32 possible stripes. If the stripes can be smaller, then you have 32/size stripes to use. The moment you start to reach infinite stripes you end up with an undefined mathematical expression, because you can't have stripes of 0 size... ie. you can't divide by 0.
So no, still not infinite.
Although, you are getting close to nearly infinite... which is what I usually say.
Sarvis
Erudite
Drakron said:
No.
First of all, those games have stats too... they are just hidden from the player.
Sarvis
Erudite
16.
Between so 0 and 9 are not an option, 8 happy? Wrong exemple i told why.
Term nearly infitie is one of the dumbest i heard in my life. Define it why run? I want yo to define it whit number since it is number right?
That have nothing to do you don't have to see this i told you that already, they are diferent plaing
-did you 11111111111121?
-no i have 111111111111111111111121
Infiniti term is 100% usless in talking about games.
Sarvis
Erudite
Kraszu said:
And if the "shirt" can't fit more than 14 digits on it, the second option CANNOT HAPPEN.
The problem is that you are trying to prove that there are infinite combinations of 3 objects if you use INFINITE SPACE. You don't have that though, so it can't happen.
Sarvis said:
No you remowe old shirt (pc is doing it automaticly when you want to put diferent in that place) that leads to infinite number of posobility of plaing. (1)121 or (2)1121
(1)-puted red the blue (red removed by pc to inventory) puted red
(2)-puted red then blue, then removed blue and puted it, puted red, puted blue.
Sarvis
Erudite
Kraszu said:
But now you are abck to making multiple decisions out of a limited set, which is what you specifically said earlier is not what you meant.
Make up your mind.
What the hell is "puted" supposed to mean anyway?
Rat Keeng
Liturgist
- Joined
- Oct 22, 2002
- Messages
- 869
I can make infinite posibilities with one shirt, check it out:
1
11
111
1111
11111
I'm constantly equipping and removing the same red shirt, that's totally infinite. Or rather, i can keep doing it for an infinite period of time, but that's just like infinite combinations. Ya, they call me Mr. Math on the streets, they go "Hey, Mr. Math, what's 2+2?", and then i go "4!", and then they laugh cause it's funny cause it's true.
1
11
111
1111
11111
I'm constantly equipping and removing the same red shirt, that's totally infinite. Or rather, i can keep doing it for an infinite period of time, but that's just like infinite combinations. Ya, they call me Mr. Math on the streets, they go "Hey, Mr. Math, what's 2+2?", and then i go "4!", and then they laugh cause it's funny cause it's true.
Sarvis said:
multiple? It is infinite diferent combinations out of limited set , an nearly infinity don't exist.
12. 4!/2!
Don't you really see that
1)term infinity is usless in descraibing games?
2))nearly infinity don't exist?
So the same things reduce acording to you, whot is the point? 11121 is the same as 121?
It is diferent combination it is you usless/pointless for you but you can do it - that was my point from start read it moron.
DarkSign
Erudite
As much as I think Sarvis is a dumbfuck, "nearly infinite" is a term of art.
Ever taken Calculus? "asymptotic infinity" is nearly infinity.
Sarvis is still a dumbfuck. As this thread proves, RPG still has no universal definition - and surely not the magical one he could never produce a link to.
Oh well. At least he got nearly infinite right.
Ever taken Calculus? "asymptotic infinity" is nearly infinity.
Sarvis is still a dumbfuck. As this thread proves, RPG still has no universal definition - and surely not the magical one he could never produce a link to.
Oh well. At least he got nearly infinite right.
Sarvis
Erudite
Kraszu said:
Oops. I hate statistics...
1) I never used infinity to describe games, in fact I used the term <b>nearly</b> infinite to describe something games <b>couldn't</b> achieve.
2) Let's see what a dictionary has to say on the matter:
"infi·nite·ness n.
Synonyms: infinite, boundless, eternal, illimitable, sempiternal
These adjectives mean being without beginning or end: infinite wisdom; boundless ambition; eternal beauty; illimitable space; sempiternal truth. See Also Synonyms at incalculable.
Usage Note: Infinite is sometimes grouped with absolute terms such as unique, absolute, and omnipotent, since in its strict mathematical sense infiniteness is an absolute property; some infinite sets are smaller than others, but they are no less infinite. In nontechnical usage, of course, infinite is often used to refer to an unimaginably large degree or amount, and in these cases it is acceptable to modify or compare the word: Nothing could give me more infinite pleasure than to see you win. Withdrawing the troops would create an even more infinite set of problems for the coalition.·Note that unlike other incomparable adjectives, infinite when used in its strict literal sense cannot be modified by words like nearly, since quantities do not approach infinity by degrees. <b>This constraint, too, can be ignored when the word is used simply to refer to a very large number: You need a nearly infinite amount of patience to do the job.</b>" -
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/infinite
You miss the point.
Each time you are only choosing 1 or 2, you are choosing TWO options.
You are trying to say that choosing between TWO options an INFINITE number of times is the same as having INFINITE options.
You are proving that there is a large number of combinations of decisions over a large period of time, but that does not mean there is an infinite number of choices... only an infinite number of decisions to be made.
Spazmo
Erudite
Oh my Optimus... Sarvis has finally met someone as stupid as he is. The outcome of this argument will shake the foundations of the moron world to a degree never before seen.
Human Shield
Augur
Shut up you two. One is talking about over time and one is talking about in one instance.
RPG: A game in which the player makes choices for a defined character existing in a defined world that can react outside of direct player input.
*Defined means based around rules and descriptions.
This is the basics of PnP games and what good RPGs emulate.
Elements that weaken an RPG: Pre-defined characters, very limited reactions from world.
A strategy game can have defined characters and world but the world is there to fight on and doesn't react dynamically.
FF games work like strategy games with a flowing story instead of different levels. Dungeon crawlers and hack and slash games are sometimes just straight squad based combat games with stairs instead of loading screens.
Examples for reactive world: You keep drawing water out of a town well.
In a good RPG it goes dry, the townspeople react, and the player faces new consequences and unforeseen events.
In a game with weak RPG elements: it goes dry, the townspeople say something about it in passing and it never comes up again.
In a strategy game: The well goes dry, the player can't get water anymore.
In an adventure game: To advance the plot, the only way is to drain the well.
RPG: A game in which the player makes choices for a defined character existing in a defined world that can react outside of direct player input.
*Defined means based around rules and descriptions.
This is the basics of PnP games and what good RPGs emulate.
Elements that weaken an RPG: Pre-defined characters, very limited reactions from world.
A strategy game can have defined characters and world but the world is there to fight on and doesn't react dynamically.
FF games work like strategy games with a flowing story instead of different levels. Dungeon crawlers and hack and slash games are sometimes just straight squad based combat games with stairs instead of loading screens.
Examples for reactive world: You keep drawing water out of a town well.
In a good RPG it goes dry, the townspeople react, and the player faces new consequences and unforeseen events.
In a game with weak RPG elements: it goes dry, the townspeople say something about it in passing and it never comes up again.
In a strategy game: The well goes dry, the player can't get water anymore.
In an adventure game: To advance the plot, the only way is to drain the well.
Ok let say it is language issue, i can do 11121 or 121, that whot i was talkng about. It is option for me to do 111121 or 121. The outcom is the same and it is pointless bet those are diferent options. In math diferent combination=diferent option but if you're not using term infinity in math strick sense i will not argue.
We use term unlimited.
Elwro
Arcane
RPGCodex - to Infinity and beyond!!1!
Greatatlantic
Erudite
There exists a very special hotel. This hotel is special because it has an infinite number of rooms. On one occassion when every room in the hotel was occupied a traveller showed up and asked for a room. With some cooperation from the other guests, the traveller was able to get a room of his own. How?
P.S. No one else had to share a room, either, if thats what you're thinking.
P.S. No one else had to share a room, either, if thats what you're thinking.
DarkSign
Erudite
You ask Hilbert what the fuck he was thinking learning mathematics.
The answer?
Move every guest to the room with twice the number - room 1 moves to room 2, room 2 to room 4, 3 to 6, and so on - so an odd number room becomes free.
The answer?
Move every guest to the room with twice the number - room 1 moves to room 2, room 2 to room 4, 3 to 6, and so on - so an odd number room becomes free.
yipsl
Scholar
While people here laugh at most of the answers on that ES thread, it just goes to show that there's more than one definition of RPG as a video game art form. Many games are called RPGs when they are not, and many RPG elements are added to other genres to provide depth and immersion. So, there are more hybrids today than ten years ago.
Let's look at another series that exemplifies classic RPG and action RPG or RPG Lite: Westwood's Lands of Lore. The first Lands of Lore was a classic CRPG in every sense, developed by team members who had worked on the Eye of the Beholder series. The second and third Lands of Lore were action RPGs without many of the elements we know and love from classic RPGs.
They were set in the same universe and were related to the plot of Lands of Lore (particularly LoL 2). Yet, I still enjoyed Lands of Lore 2 and 3 despite their deviation from the first game. Would I have preferred a graphics update to Lands of Lore that was truly an RPG? Yes, but I played what I got with the attitude "It could be worse".
It can be argued that Bethesda Softworks went from classic RPG form (Arena and Daggerfall) to action RPG with Morrowind and are going further with Oblivion, but I don't see it that way. Did anyone here know people who considered Arena's real time combat and first person perspective to not be RPG enough? I'm not talking about my friend who only played pen and paper and didn't consider any CRPG to be a true RPG, but people who were used to turn based party RPGs with a combat screen separate from the exploration map.
Also, Daggerfall was sometimes considered a heresy because it went from pen and paper XP based levelling to skill use levelling. It was a major change in it's RPG generation and Oblivion is making similar changes re: ditching dice rolls for combat. What's so wrong with Oblivion is development by marketing study rather than developer vision. The former's flaws lie in failing to meet everyone's expectations by letting the vaguest idea of "fun" decide what's in and what's out. The latter's flaws lie in making a game that will appeal only to hardcore fans. They are trying to strike a balance, but I'd prefer if they addressed why something wasn't popular and fix that rather than simply ditch it because something else got a few more votes in their polling.
All this number crunching arguing over clothes is silly. Clothes and armor do not make the RPG man. Choice available in every aspect of the game makes the RPG the purest example. Anything with less choice is a hybrid, and simply attaching a pen and paper style rules system on an RTS chassis (Baldurs Gate) or applying fantasy world lore to an action/adventure chassis (Lands of Lore 2) creates a hybrid that can be marketed as an RPG and even fondly remembered as an RPG, but it's still not an RPG.
Can't say whether Fallout was an RPG, I haven't played it, but I have my doubts that Baldurs Gate is an RPG just as I have my doubts that later Final Fantasies were RPGs. Oblivion is still an RPG, but we'll see if TES V or Fallout 3 are RPGs in the truest sense.
That's because they can't do in this generation what they want to do regarding sieges. They are still moving in that direction with real destruction to the town and consequences for the inhabitants. Since the Empire's falling, they could quite easily do a siege when dual core and newer GPU hardware allow more than seven or eight NPCs on each side in a battle. For now, they seem to be restricted to raids. As for the linear MQ, that's to please the "can't find Caius" but want to beat the game in under 30 hours crowd. We know that cities and nobles will have agendas, just like in Daggerfall and that's where the intrigue lies and much of the over 200+ hours of gameplay lies.
Pete gets all the stick because he's the PR guy. Todd and Gavin get some because they're out there doing interviews. MSFD gets stick here because he does what he won't do at TES. Heck, he even got mad at me awhile back when, after hearing about the middleware, I quipped "At least you guys won't have to do as much work" when I was simply joking about their not having to reinvent the Xngine.
We all know NETImmerse issues doomed Morrowind's performance, and some were speculating they were doing the engine from scratch again. MSFD doesn't get ticked off at people here, or just LOLs, he doesn't flame. That's because this seems to be his PR assignment. Pete preaches to the "gee graphics ummmm" Homer Simpsons of the mainstream console community and MSFD preaches to the hardcore CRPG, but both of them take the TES forums for granted because the sales are a given.
Todd and Gavin just repeat the mantras and add "sorry we can't talk about that now", which is their anti-PR assignment.
edited GPS to what I meant GPU, all that kvetching about the compass got in the way of designating the graphics processor unit, plus I did this post yesterday at work while on my break, so I didn't proofread like I do at home.
Let's look at another series that exemplifies classic RPG and action RPG or RPG Lite: Westwood's Lands of Lore. The first Lands of Lore was a classic CRPG in every sense, developed by team members who had worked on the Eye of the Beholder series. The second and third Lands of Lore were action RPGs without many of the elements we know and love from classic RPGs.
They were set in the same universe and were related to the plot of Lands of Lore (particularly LoL 2). Yet, I still enjoyed Lands of Lore 2 and 3 despite their deviation from the first game. Would I have preferred a graphics update to Lands of Lore that was truly an RPG? Yes, but I played what I got with the attitude "It could be worse".
It can be argued that Bethesda Softworks went from classic RPG form (Arena and Daggerfall) to action RPG with Morrowind and are going further with Oblivion, but I don't see it that way. Did anyone here know people who considered Arena's real time combat and first person perspective to not be RPG enough? I'm not talking about my friend who only played pen and paper and didn't consider any CRPG to be a true RPG, but people who were used to turn based party RPGs with a combat screen separate from the exploration map.
Also, Daggerfall was sometimes considered a heresy because it went from pen and paper XP based levelling to skill use levelling. It was a major change in it's RPG generation and Oblivion is making similar changes re: ditching dice rolls for combat. What's so wrong with Oblivion is development by marketing study rather than developer vision. The former's flaws lie in failing to meet everyone's expectations by letting the vaguest idea of "fun" decide what's in and what's out. The latter's flaws lie in making a game that will appeal only to hardcore fans. They are trying to strike a balance, but I'd prefer if they addressed why something wasn't popular and fix that rather than simply ditch it because something else got a few more votes in their polling.
All this number crunching arguing over clothes is silly. Clothes and armor do not make the RPG man. Choice available in every aspect of the game makes the RPG the purest example. Anything with less choice is a hybrid, and simply attaching a pen and paper style rules system on an RTS chassis (Baldurs Gate) or applying fantasy world lore to an action/adventure chassis (Lands of Lore 2) creates a hybrid that can be marketed as an RPG and even fondly remembered as an RPG, but it's still not an RPG.
Can't say whether Fallout was an RPG, I haven't played it, but I have my doubts that Baldurs Gate is an RPG just as I have my doubts that later Final Fantasies were RPGs. Oblivion is still an RPG, but we'll see if TES V or Fallout 3 are RPGs in the truest sense.
Twinfalls said:
That's because they can't do in this generation what they want to do regarding sieges. They are still moving in that direction with real destruction to the town and consequences for the inhabitants. Since the Empire's falling, they could quite easily do a siege when dual core and newer GPU hardware allow more than seven or eight NPCs on each side in a battle. For now, they seem to be restricted to raids. As for the linear MQ, that's to please the "can't find Caius" but want to beat the game in under 30 hours crowd. We know that cities and nobles will have agendas, just like in Daggerfall and that's where the intrigue lies and much of the over 200+ hours of gameplay lies.
Pete gets all the stick because he's the PR guy. Todd and Gavin get some because they're out there doing interviews. MSFD gets stick here because he does what he won't do at TES. Heck, he even got mad at me awhile back when, after hearing about the middleware, I quipped "At least you guys won't have to do as much work" when I was simply joking about their not having to reinvent the Xngine.
We all know NETImmerse issues doomed Morrowind's performance, and some were speculating they were doing the engine from scratch again. MSFD doesn't get ticked off at people here, or just LOLs, he doesn't flame. That's because this seems to be his PR assignment. Pete preaches to the "gee graphics ummmm" Homer Simpsons of the mainstream console community and MSFD preaches to the hardcore CRPG, but both of them take the TES forums for granted because the sales are a given.
Todd and Gavin just repeat the mantras and add "sorry we can't talk about that now", which is their anti-PR assignment.
edited GPS to what I meant GPU, all that kvetching about the compass got in the way of designating the graphics processor unit, plus I did this post yesterday at work while on my break, so I didn't proofread like I do at home.
Sarvis
Erudite
DarkSign said:
Actually, you just put him in the next room.
The thing with infinity is that it's defined by the fact that there is always one more.
DarkSign
Erudite
Sarvis...
The puzzle he gave you is an old mathematical puzzle called Hilbert's hotel.
I gave the correct answer...you didnt. Go sit at the little kiddy table.
The puzzle he gave you is an old mathematical puzzle called Hilbert's hotel.
I gave the correct answer...you didnt. Go sit at the little kiddy table.
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