Data4
Arcane
Psilon said:
Proving once and for all that there was, in fact, a second shooter on the grassy knoll.
-D4
-
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What's an RPG? - the search for clue continues!
- Thread starter Vault Dweller
- Start date
Proving once and for all that there was, in fact, a second shooter on the grassy knoll.
-D4
voodoo1man
Liturgist
Greatatlantic said:
Hehehe, the guy who made that must have slept through all his high school classes! Is it color mixing? Is it a Venn diagram? Is it made by a dumbass?
Spazmo said:
I think we have our next qualified, experienced candidate for the dumfuck title.
Greatatlantic said:
Hehe, you'd think that. But then wait! Between any two irrational numbers, there are an infinite number of rational numbers! What's more, between any two rational numbers, there are an infinite number of other rational numbers! Really, I think it only makes sense that there are infinitely more real numbers than there are rational numbers, because what are irrational numbers? They're numbers that aren't rational - I don't know how you'd define one without the other. Besides, the reals sans the irrationals wouldn't be a continuum, and since the continuum hypothesis is generally undecidable, we can't really know what the cardinality of the irrationals alone is (here I'm just guessing that's what it would imply, I never really studied transfinite numbers).
The diagonal proof is a pretty good way of showing that there are more reals than rationals, but my personal favorite is to say, what's the least upper bound of the set of rational numbers less than the square root of 2? Well, we know that root 2 is irrational (Pythagoras killed a guy because of it, so it must be true), and since we just said that there are an infinite number of rationals between any two irrationals, we can always find a larger rational number less than the root of 2. But then that means there are some numbers we can't compute in the rationals. How many? Infinitely many, so the size of the reals must be infinitely larger than that of the rationals. Oh, and incidentally we just proved that the rationals aren't complete and pretty much defined Dedekind cuts. What a neat result!
PS - Teh RPG have elves!!
PPS - RPGs must have a chance element to many (really, most) major game interactions.
kingcomrade
Kingcomrade
Holy crap, you defy the laws of teh intarwebt. I'm going to have to spend some time on a 50 cent fanboard to make up for this.
yipsl
Scholar
Kraszu said:
My Arena comparison applies to the era in which it was marketed as an RPG. Not today. I wasn't discussing general dexterity vs. stats based dice rolled combat, but the fact that RPGs before Arena generally took the player's party to a turn based combat screen. Both the turn based combat screen and Arena/Daggerfall's first person action combat used dice rolls based on skills, but The Elder Scrolls brought an element of action to the mix that had not been there before.
I did know people who didn't like RPGs past Betrayal at Krondor because they didn't want the RTS fog of war, click on your party member and get a "cheerio" and they also didn't want any element of first person keyboard control. They wanted isometric or first person exploration with a traditional separate combat screen that operated like a table top hex map.
I brought it up because RPGs evolved from one style created in imitation of pen and paper to another style when technology allowed. What both styles had in common was use of rules derived from pen and paper conventions.
That's why I think the combat will work in Oblivion and is not one of the features that limits it as an RPG. All their "we have to make it fun for the mainstream" limits it when the mainstream would buy it anyway if they made it closer to classic TES RPG rules.
It's also why I think that there's nothing wrong with RPG hybrids alongside classic RPGs. I see it as a vindication from the RTS, action and FPS crowd that their games aren't really as good without RPG elements.
All this kvetching about infinity and Hilbert is less about mathematics than ego and this kind of thing is the equivalent on the Codex to the fanboyism of the kids at Bethsoft's boards. For a minute reading the back and forth with juvenile swearing, I felt like I was in Dilbert Space instead of anything mathematical, it's an odd location in the universe where banality is the vector and bitching is the sole inner product.
You can't assume(changing data) you got the rules. Yo don't cnow if it heavier or lighter.
No, every time you try to add irration number to hotel or whotever you create rational number, each rational number create infinite number of irrationals so it is the race you can't win. -the are beetwin new number and the bigest that was.
Yes sure but it is someting that we will never know, and somebady cane blame bethseda for that they didn't risk and try it make more rpgish. I personly if the fight is in rt i want it to be timed like in gothic since morrowind fight was boring (animations would not make it less boring, only fr somebady dumb who would think that he is controling them) - you can throw the rock now, and don't see it as dumbing fight since morrowind fight didn't requaire more thinking then a gothic style, going from tb to rt is dumbing it.
For me other element like dalogues (wikipedia) or abbility to join all guilds (mostly that), that my choice don't affect the world and other ppl reaction for me - those are elements that i would like to be change in the first place.
Section8
Cipher
Fucking hell. <dodges the maths homework>
Damn straight. It's a good thing to listen to outside input, since ideas aren't always as forthcoming to one person as another. But, many developers these days seem to be swayed by them in the wrong way.
A good way to incorporate an idea is to hear something you hadn't otherwise thought of, and think "Holy fucking shit! Why didn't I think of that?" and incorporate that good idea into your own vision.
A bad way to incorporate ideas, is by weighing their significance on anything other than your own opinion. If a developer decides that because n people like an idea, it's worth including, then the decision is being made without a proper understanding of how the idea fits into the overall vision.
From my own experiences, here's the classic example. The Fallout Tactics multiplayer demo was a whole lot of fun, largely because teams were absolutely equal, and character builds fixed. The question was asked - "Will we be able to use our own custom characters in the full version?" and the answer was no. A lot of the dev team was unhappy with this, and in a bid to rally up popular support in the face of logic, the news was leaked to the fans, who reacted exactly as you'd expect.
So, a "mandate of the masses" twisted the collective arms of reason, and an entirely broken feature was implemented. I got the job of assigning arbitrary point values to a list of hundreds of items, each with a laundry list of stats, and some supposed correlation between a formula to calculate the point value of a character. Needless to say, I didn't even come fucking close to anything resembling balance.
And so, multiplayer FOT became an exercise in munchkinism, carefully followed prescriptions, and mostly, futility. But hey, we placated the angry minority that was boldly claiming a boycott on the game if the horribly broken feature wasn't included.
yipsl said:
Damn straight. It's a good thing to listen to outside input, since ideas aren't always as forthcoming to one person as another. But, many developers these days seem to be swayed by them in the wrong way.
A good way to incorporate an idea is to hear something you hadn't otherwise thought of, and think "Holy fucking shit! Why didn't I think of that?" and incorporate that good idea into your own vision.
A bad way to incorporate ideas, is by weighing their significance on anything other than your own opinion. If a developer decides that because n people like an idea, it's worth including, then the decision is being made without a proper understanding of how the idea fits into the overall vision.
From my own experiences, here's the classic example. The Fallout Tactics multiplayer demo was a whole lot of fun, largely because teams were absolutely equal, and character builds fixed. The question was asked - "Will we be able to use our own custom characters in the full version?" and the answer was no. A lot of the dev team was unhappy with this, and in a bid to rally up popular support in the face of logic, the news was leaked to the fans, who reacted exactly as you'd expect.
So, a "mandate of the masses" twisted the collective arms of reason, and an entirely broken feature was implemented. I got the job of assigning arbitrary point values to a list of hundreds of items, each with a laundry list of stats, and some supposed correlation between a formula to calculate the point value of a character. Needless to say, I didn't even come fucking close to anything resembling balance.
And so, multiplayer FOT became an exercise in munchkinism, carefully followed prescriptions, and mostly, futility. But hey, we placated the angry minority that was boldly claiming a boycott on the game if the horribly broken feature wasn't included.
kris
Arcane
I found one more reason to hate math
kingcomrade
Kingcomrade
I love math. My college precal teacher has some h(.)nkers.
Spazmo
Erudite
Precal? The word is "algebra".
kingcomrade
Kingcomrade
No, the word is precal. Algebra and geometry is a different class. I've gone through precal and calculus in high school, I'm sitting through classes I don't need...but yeah, the honkers.
Sarvis
Erudite
kingcomrade said:
Yeah, I used to think I didn't need math too...
kingcomrade
Kingcomrade
No, I mean, I already know the material. It's mostly recap for me. I'm one of those fancy schmancy took International Baccalaureate classes in high school nerds. I was one point (on a scale of seven) away from getting a math free credit 
Anyways, I got French English and History out of the way.
Anyways, I got French English and History out of the way.bryce777
Erudite
Sarvis said:
The calculus and such are useless crap unless you go into engineering. The probability and statistics and such are pretty much vital though, because this is EXACTLY the kind of reasoning and logic ability you need to have if you are going to be a programmer.
If you have problems with this (as you and everyone in this thread seem to) you should just give up on the cs degree. Not that most jobs that are left these days will be actual programming jobs anyhow, but maybe making some stupid web pages or else windows sysadmin garbage. i pity people going into cs these days.
kingcomrade
Kingcomrade
What are you talking about? Programming jobs are one of the fastest growing job markets out there. Something like 10,000 new ones a year, bureau of labor statistics says.
And that's programming, not sys admin or whatever.
I wasn't talking about having trouble with math......
I was saying I have already learned the material, so I'm bored because I already know this crap.
And that's programming, not sys admin or whatever.
I wasn't talking about having trouble with math......
I was saying I have already learned the material, so I'm bored because I already know this crap.
Sarvis
Erudite
bryce777 said:
I've already got the degree, but thanks for trying.
The only time my math ability has ever been a limiting factor was when I tried computer graphics, which is why I'll probably never be a game programmer. Oh well, no biggie... just about everything else out there is just logic and I do just fine.
kingcomrade said:
...in India
Doppelganger
Novice
- Joined
- Oct 17, 2005
- Messages
- 85
Vault Dweller said:
Off-topic: After doing some more reading: is Rosh the 'Roshambo' who was put in Fallout Tactics as the old guy who pisses in others' drinks? And are there any Unwashed Villagers here?
kingcomrade
Kingcomrade
Roshambo on NMA is a turdface with a stick up his ass.
Section8
Cipher
Yep, Rosh was like the alpha of rabid Fallout fans railing against Fallout Tactics, and so he was thrown in as a crazy, naked old guy. Possibly inspired by the crazy, naked old guys at lemonparty. The MF offices were definitely awash with goatse.cx and tubgirl, so I wouldn't be surprised.
DarkSign
Erudite
kingcomrade said:
Truer words were never spoken. He gets free reign over at NMA to be just as crappy as he wants to be - with people backing him up because they want to get in the clique over there.
If an argument with him over there is what spurred your comment above, realize he's an idiot who will never be broken out of his chemically-induced fantasy land; and stop arguing.
kingcomrade
Kingcomrade
Actually, it was reading an argument that he had with someone else. But yeah.
It's kind of disappointing, one Fallout site is the equivalent of Retardo Land, the other is ruled by Captain Stupid.
It's kind of disappointing, one Fallout site is the equivalent of Retardo Land, the other is ruled by Captain Stupid.
Doppelganger
Novice
- Joined
- Oct 17, 2005
- Messages
- 85
That's quite a badge of honour. Wonder if anyone will be able to manage it for that *other* game currently being discussed elsewhere on this forum so politely and thoroughly?Section8 said:
Aargh! Thanks for reminding me of something I'd managed to block from memory. It was always the wedding ring that got to me, for some reason.
TheGreatGodPan
Arbiter
- Joined
- Jul 21, 2005
- Messages
- 1,762
The rational numbers are countably infintie and the irrational numbers are uncountably infinite. THAT'S RIGHT, I SAID IT!
voodoo1man
Liturgist
yipsl said:
I agree. I say we should switch to arguing about post-modern art, or maybe the opera. That way we can demonstrate that not only are we smarter, but are also much more cultured than the Bethesda/Bioware plebes.
bryce777 said:
Ever hear of these obscure fields known as computer graphics and computer vision? How about computer sound processing? This "x is useless crap for computer programming" attitude is exactly why software sucks so much these days. Applying probability and statistics alone (hey, guess what - you need calculus to do anything but the most elementary statistics!) is obviously working great - any code monkey at Microsoft can tell me there's a 50% chance IE will crash next time I use it.
Kraszu said:
Uh, yeah, but that doesn't mean that there aren't an infinite number of rational numbers between any two irrational numbers. Just pick any two rational numbers between those irrational numbers, and then you obviously have an infinite number of rational numbers between those.
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