Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

Decline Where my Bubbles Gone?

tuluse

Arcane
Joined
Jul 20, 2008
Messages
11,400
Serpent in the Staglands Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Shadorwun: Hong Kong
Yep.

Also consider the various supplements with class kits and such. The locked-in, on-rails class system doesn't serve the player particularly well, but it's awesome if you want to sell more books. While this may have been a fortuitous side effect of the general clusterfuck that is AD&D, I think it's telling that they went out of their way to create a similar system in D&D3. Prestige classes aren't necessary from a design PoV at all (if you wanted to give players the possibility to take awesome-button high-level abilities, you could've baked those into the feat system directly), but they're brilliant if your objective is to sell more books.
Ironically (or not?) most official prestige classes suck ass and the book actually tells you to roll your own specific to your players.
 

Prime Junta

Guest
But the Prestige classes / kits do add a lot of flavor and shape the archetype. Not to mention the powergaming possibilities... They are very worthy additions IMO.

They do add flavour and possibilities. However, they add a bunch of problems as well. For one thing, the requirements are generally both arbitrary ("because I say so") and stringent: if you don't plan your character from the start, you will likely not be able to qualify at all. This reverts D&D3's more open and flexible character advancement right back to AD&D's on-rails advancement, except with the additional complication that the player has to keep track of it.

Again: if the objective is to add variation, flavour, and awesome high-level abilities, they could've done that directly in the feat trees. Feats already allow for preconditions. There's no need to package these together into prestige classes.

Ironically (or not?) most official prestige classes suck ass and the book actually tells you to roll your own specific to your players.

Yeah it does. It even gives some guidelines on how to make them. DnD3 is much better in this respect -- while it too gets bogged down in details quite a lot, it does generally expose the logic underlying the rules and gives general guidelines on how to resolve situations not specifically addressed. It's a much better system in almost every way.
 

DarkUnderlord

Professional Throne Sitter
Staff Member
Joined
Jun 18, 2002
Messages
28,343

A horse of course

Guest
You probably use hugs to express your love for your family and friends. Maybe you also use them as a way of saying hello and goodbye when you meet good friends. And maybe you haven’t thought further than that about hugs. I mean, what is there to think about? Well actually, there’s a whole science behind them!

Here’s the shocking truth: hugs boost our happiness levels. And scientific research is there to show this. Basically, a good hug is the fastest way for you to get oxytocin flowing in your body. Oxytocin, also known as the “love drug”, calms your nervous system and boosts positive emotions. Here’s how a good hug resulting in oxytocin flow affects you:

  • It lowers your blood pressure, especially helpful if you’re feeling anxious.
  • It lowers your cortisol (the stress hormone), enabling a higher quality of sleep.
  • It can increase your social connections and a sense of belonging.
Because of these findings, it might be no surprise that studies have also shown that couples who hug more are more likely to stay together. Some reports have even shown hugs can reduce pain.

So what’s not to love? Hugs make you happier, healthier and more relaxed – AND improve your relationships!

There’s only one catch: It has to be a GOOD HUG! Which means, it has to last at least 20 seconds.

UFjHAD7.jpg
 

Goral

Arcane
Patron
The Real Fanboy
Joined
May 4, 2008
Messages
3,552
Location
Poland
Meh, it's the Codex. No way this thread was going to survive without getting hilariously derailed into autism.
When is Prime Cunta getting ejected?
I've assumed he was joking. Bubbles pm'd me about his and emailed. Prima made one reference in a thread and then kept posting.
So you haven't ejected anyone for lulz yet? Or is Prime Cunta jewish special? Anyway, there should be some consequences to what he's done (wasting words/making empty promises and false advertising of a shitty game for starters) and it's not like ejection=ban, nothing would stop Cunta from creating "Cunta II" account, right?
 

A horse of course

Guest
Good. He had shit taste in literature.

edit: Oh wait that was the other guy.

Angthoron is probably scum too tho
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Lhynn

Arcane
Joined
Aug 28, 2013
Messages
9,823
Also consider the various supplements with class kits and such. The locked-in, on-rails class system doesn't serve the player particularly well
It serves both the player and the campaign well. Complete character customization creates too many undesired side effects. Its something that needs to die.

but it's awesome if you want to sell more books.
Not any more than any other system that gives expanded character customization. Both 2nd and third edition had books that included new races and classes, but classless systems like vampire or cyberpunk offered the same.

While this may have been a fortuitous side effect of the general clusterfuck that is AD&D, I think it's telling that they went out of their way to create a similar system in D&D3.
They created a similar system because it was the 3rd edition of the same system im guessing. Also AD&D wasnt a clusterfuck, i understood it when i was 12 after reading it once, its super simple.

Prestige classes aren't necessary from a design PoV at all
They are a cool concept tho, but not how they were explored in 3rd edition.

but they're brilliant if your objective is to sell more books.
Not anymore than virtually any other form of content you twat. Feats, spells, optional rules, etc.
 

duanth123

Arcane
Joined
Mar 22, 2008
Messages
822
Location
This island earth
I've assumed he was joking. Bubbles pm'd me about his and emailed. Prima made one reference in a thread and then kept posting.

He definitely wasn't joking. More like he felt a certain rancid wind at his back and was inspired to continue punishing us for our collective, ironic indifference to the quality of our own site's output.

In fact, I don't think it's ever been shown that Prime Junta possesses a sense of humor.

He was raised by a pack of wild, embedded advertisements after all.
 
Last edited:

Prime Junta

Guest
AD&D wasnt a clusterfuck

Okay then.

In a melee or ranged attack, you roll high on a d20 against a static defence, but get their via unnecessarily weird subtraction algorithm. In a magical attack, the defender rolls against a completely static number, except if the defender has magic resistance in which case the attacker also rolls but this time with a d100 against a d20. Why have two unrelated, layered mechanics to resolve the magic attack, and why is the attacker rolling against a defence on the ranged and melee attacks but the defender rolling against an attack on the (standard) spell defence mechanic?

In non-weapon proficiency checks, the player rolls low on a d20 against a static number that may be adjusted by the DM at his discretion (with no general guidelines on what kinds of adjustments should apply when), except with thief skills in which case he rolls on a d100. Why is the roll low rather than high, and why use different dice?

Thief skills allow progression and start low. NWPs only allow progression by spending extra slots, and the base chance = your ability score. Why the difference? And what kind of sense does the NWP mechanic make?

To resolve a fireball attack against, say, a group of three drow, you need:

(1) A roll on d100 against a number from the monster description for each drow, to beat magic resistance
(2) A roll on d20 against a number from the monster description for each where you successfully beat the magic resistance check
(3) A roll of nd6 where n is your character level, which you then need to sum, and divide by 2 for each drow who succeeded in the saving throw

Don't you think this is rather a lot of rolling, comparing, adding, and dividing for resolving a simple AoE spell attack?

True or false: characters can opt to use NWP slots to buy thief skills?

A character with STR 18/25 has a Bend Bars chance of 25%. He notices his jail cell's bars are bronze rather than iron. How does that affect his Bend Bars chance? Chapter and verse plz, this is a common situation so "the DM will asspull the adjustment" is not an acceptable answer.

A character with STR 18/25 needs to push a heavy boulder over a cliffside. How is his chance of success determined?

Shall I go on?
 

Prime Junta

Guest
Two things I find cooler in AD&D mechanics is combat turn structure and spell casting time.

IMO they work better in a computer game also. It can take pretty long just to figure out in which order shit happens; there are lots of factors to consider.
 

Fowyr

Arcane
Vatnik
Joined
Mar 29, 2009
Messages
7,671
Okay then.

In a melee or ranged attack, you roll high on a d20 against a static defence, but get their via unnecessarily weird subtraction algorithm. In a magical attack, the defender rolls against a completely static number, except if the defender has magic resistance in which case the attacker also rolls but this time with a d100 against a d20. Why have two unrelated, layered mechanics to resolve the magic attack, and why is the attacker rolling against a defence on the ranged and melee attacks but the defender rolling against an attack on the (standard) spell defence mechanic?
How often do you roll for magic defense? Too much Underdark campaigns with goody-two-shoes drow Rangers named Brizzt, Freeze and TwinBlades The Awesome?
In non-weapon proficiency checks, the player rolls low on a d20 against a static number that may be adjusted by the DM at his discretion (with no general guidelines on what kinds of adjustments should apply when), except with thief skills in which case he rolls on a d100. Why is the roll low rather than high, and why use different dice?
Why not? Also thief skills are not NWP. They are CLASS ABILITIES unique to Thief, Bard and somewhat Ranger. Think about it.

Thief skills allow progression and start low. NWPs only allow progression by spending extra slots, and the base chance = your ability score. Why the difference? And what kind of sense does the NWP mechanic make?
A lot. It's NPC's knowledge/abilities adjusted both by stats (so intelligent guy better in history, 'cause remembers more and reads faster) and additional training. Also it's optional rule.

To resolve a fireball attack against, say, a group of three drow, you need:
(1) A roll on d100 against a number from the monster description for each drow, to beat magic resistance
(2) A roll on d20 against a number from the monster description for each where you successfully beat the magic resistance check
(3) A roll of nd6 where n is your character level, which you then need to sum, and divide by 2 for each drow who succeeded in the saving throw
Again, YES. Think about it, it's simulation. (1)Drow shrugged off magic and continued on his merry way. (2)Drow dodged, fell down, was just very lucky son of the bitch today and took half damage.
Don't you think this is rather a lot of rolling, comparing, adding, and dividing for resolving a simple AoE spell attack?
No. You make it pretty fast.
True or false: characters can opt to use NWP slots to buy thief skills?
Afair, no, and if yes it dosn't makes any sense, cause they are, as I said, abilities.
A character with STR 18/25 has a Bend Bars chance of 25%. He notices his jail cell's bars are bronze rather than iron. How does that affect his Bend Bars chance? Chapter and verse plz, this is a common situation so "the DM will asspull the adjustment" is not an acceptable answer.
It's acceptable answer. Or should you need Rolemancer/FATAL style table with HRC of iron bars and alloy composition of bronze bars?
A character with STR 18/25 needs to push a heavy boulder over a cliffside. How is his chance of success determined?
By DM who should analyze boulder's weight ( :lol: ), maximum press (280 lbs for 18/25), i.e. lifting ability, type of ground, adjust numbers, compare them with max press multiplied by phase of the Moon modificator and make his decision.
Yes, it's only true method for Advanced Boxes and Boulders, aka Sokoban The RPG.

How often you are pushing boulders? AD&D is fucking great in this regard. It's good balance between autiistic oversimulation and abstract mechanic!
 

Prime Junta

Guest
Yay, somebody bit.

(1) In mid- to high-level campaigns, pretty often. Entire categories of monsters have magic resistance (e.g. infernals, celestials, golems, elves...) and in many settings you interact/fight them quite a lot.
(2) You're not answering the questions. Yes, thief skills are class abilities -- but why do they use a different resolution mechanic than NWPs?
(3) "A lot" is not an answer. How does it make sense that a high-WIS character who spends an NWP slot in Religion goes suddenly from knowing jack shit about religion to knowing almost everything about it? Why is the progression different than in thief skills? How does this instant-guru progression serve the purpose of fun, interesting, or challenging gameplay?
(4) Still not answering the question. Why so many rolls? It'd be perfectly easy to roll magic resistance and the saving throw into a single defensive stat, thereby eliminating one roll. (Also, "simulation" in the context of AD&D, LOL. Falling mechanics again.)
(5) Time it.
(6) You sure about that?
(7) Nope, more modern game systems have simple and usable mechanics that let you answer this question without asspulls. Elaboration follows.

A PnP ruleset has exactly one purpose. It needs to answer this question + its possible followup:

Question: "My character attempts <task>. Does he succeed?"
Followup: "If he succeeds/fails, is there a quantifiable result? If so, what is that result?"


Take three situations: bending those bronze bars, pushing the boulder over the cliff, and deciphering a scroll written in cipher.

AD&D's solutions:

(1) Use the "Bend Bars" stat as a base, and fudge it (not saying how, just fudge it to your discretion).
(2) Not covered by the rules. Invent something.
(3) If the character has a suitable NWP, roll a d20. If it's below his INT, succeeds. If above, fails. Natural 20 always fails. If he doesn't have an NWP, fail.

These are all unsatisfactory answers: 1 and 2 require off-the-cuff fudging and if you have to do that a lot, why even have rules? And in 3, the problem is that it's binary -- you're either an expert or an ignoramus, and spending additional NWP slots on the same skills will only improve you marginally (which is WAY less useful than spending the slots on some completely different skills).

I.e., AD&D fails at the outset: it requires fudging for 1, says nothing about 2, and provides a crude, binary solution to 3.

Here's how it works in many modern PnP systems -- notice, no prison bar strength tables needed:

(1) GM assigns the task a difficulty on a scale defined in the rules.
(2) Player rolls a die or dice and adds a bonus (or penalty) from his abilities and skills. If he beats the difficulty, he succeeds. Else he fails.

Let's posit an imaginary rule system with the following resolution mechanic:

(1) GM assigns a difficulty to the task on a scale from 1 (trivial) to 10 (near-impossible).
(2) Player rolls a d6, adds the bonus from the ability used to resolve the task, and the bonus from training (if applicable).
(2b) Training in a related skill (as arbitrated by the GM) allows use of half the training bonus.
(3) For tasks with binary outcomes (succeed/fail), matching or beating the difficulty results in a success, else the result is a failure.
(4) For tasks with scalar outcomes, matching the difficulty is a partial success, and the degree of success or failure is determined by the difference between the target number and the adjusted roll.

Case 1:
Player: "Okay, so the prison bars are bronze. I'll try to bend them to get through."
GM: <has determined that the bars are level 5 difficulty>
GM: "Roll a d6 and add your STR adjustment."
Player: "My STR adjustment is +2 and I rolled a 4, so that's a 6."
GM: "You put all your strengths to the bars, and with a groan and a creak they give way. You now have enough of a gap to go through them."

Case 2:
(Exactly the same situation as above. It's a feat of strength against a task with a difficulty set by the GM, with a binary outcome -- either the boulder moves, or it doesn't.)

Case 3:

Player: "So the scroll is in some kind of cipher. I'm staying at the inn the next day to see if I can make sense of it."
GM: <has determined that it's a complex cipher used for military purposes -- a level 7 task>
GM: "Do you have ranks in 'decipher text?'"
Player: "No, but I do have 'read ancient language.' That's kind of similar isn't it?"
GM: "I'll rule that it is related, which means you get half your bonus from that. Roll a d6, and add that and your INT bonus."
Player: "I rolled a 4. My INT bonus is +2, and I get another +1 from the related skill for a total of 7."
GM: "You determine it's a military communication, dated three days ago. The sender is a centurion from the Second Maniple of the Iron legion. It looks like a requisition order, but you can't make sense of what they're requisitioning. <partial success, since it was an exact match for the difficulty>

See, this is the benefit of having a single, unified resolution mechanic. You don't need page after page of NWP lists specifying exactly how, say, the "Agriculture" NWP functions, or a table of prison bar strengths for various gauges and materials. All you need is (1) a rule that tells the GM how to assign difficulty, (2) a rule that tells the GM and player how to determine success for a task of a given difficulty, and (3) a rule or rules which tell the GM and player what the effects of success or failure are. Once you have that, pretty much any task can be resolved consistently and fairly -- and if you want to add complexity in areas where it benefits gameplay, you can do that to any degree of detail that you want: you'd likely want to add crits, fumbles, and variable damage to combat, and so on and so forth.

AD&D sucks because it has none of that. It's completely ass-backwards, providing mountains of strict rules for hundreds of specific situations, instead of a minimum number of general rules applicable to the maximum number of gameplay situations. Even rules like "open locks" or "bend bars" only really work if all locks or all bars are the same: if a lock is easier or harder than usual, the DM is just asked to fudge the numbers, without any rules about how and when and to what extent.

So the only AD&D rules that do work, sort of, are the ones it inherited directly from OD&D: core combat and thief skills. Even they are counterintuitive, inconsistent, unnecessarily complicated, and often unnecessarily heavy, and even they only really work in the OD&D environment of standard dungeons built from standard features. Just about everything outside that core is a horrid, illogical, counterintuitive, borderline unplayable mess.
 

Lhynn

Arcane
Joined
Aug 28, 2013
Messages
9,823
Okay then.

In a melee or ranged attack, you roll high on a d20 against a static defence
Actually this is one of the games biggest misconceptions, the defense isnt really static, the defender can roll a d20 too, and that value becomes his base AC for the round. Its not actually used all that often, but you can do it.

but get their via unnecessarily weird subtraction algorithm.
Sounds extremely hard to grasp when you are 6. Any teenager or adult should have no problem adjusting the values tho.

In a magical attack, the defender rolls against a completely static number, except if the defender has magic resistance in which case the attacker also rolls but this time with a d100 against a d20.
Wat? no.
MR is a static value, you dont roll it against anything but your own MR. Also tons of spells dont allow for MR, or dont allow for TS, or dont allow for any, or can ask for STR rolls, etc.

Why have two unrelated, layered mechanics to resolve the magic attack
Because the second one is a extremely rare defense, that is always rolled, even against beneficial effects or even magical items.

and why is the attacker rolling against a defence on the ranged and melee attacks but the defender rolling against an attack on the (standard) spell defence mechanic?
As i said, it doesnt necesarily need to be the case against attacks. Against magic the caster merely summon forces that are largely outside of his control, its up to the one affected to fight them off.

In non-weapon proficiency checks, the player rolls low on a d20 against a static number that may be adjusted by the DM at his discretion (with no general guidelines on what kinds of adjustments should apply when)except with thief skills in which case he rolls on a d100. Why is the roll low rather than high, and why use different dice?
Why not, rolling different values and aiming for different numbers brings variety to the main gameplay element of the game.

Thief skills allow progression and start low. NWPs only allow progression by spending extra slots, and the base chance = your ability score. Why the difference?
Because thief skills are class based, they grow as long as the character takes levels in the rogue class. Also thief skills are modified by your ability scores as well. NWP are outside of the scope of your class.

And what kind of sense does the NWP mechanic make?
Plenty, makes it clear that its completely divorced from your profession or chosen path. Its the knowledge you get while living your lyfe.

To resolve a fireball attack against, say, a group of three drow, you need:

(1) A roll on d100 against a number from the monster description for each drow, to beat magic resistance
(2) A roll on d20 against a number from the monster description for each where you successfully beat the magic resistance check
(3) A roll of nd6 where n is your character level, which you then need to sum, and divide by 2 for each drow who succeeded in the saving throw
All this ordeal takes like half a minute.

Don't you think this is rather a lot of rolling, comparing, adding, and dividing for resolving a simple AoE spell attack?
No, its simple math.

True or false: characters can opt to use NWP slots to buy thief skills?
That rule doesnt exist as far as i know. But i never looked into it. May have heard something about it at some point.
I do know there are non weapon proficiencies that give bonuses to thieving skills, like being a locksmith for example.

A character with STR 18/25 has a Bend Bars chance of 25%. He notices his jail cell's bars are bronze rather than iron. How does that affect his Bend Bars chance?
I dont know? whats the state of the bars? is there a structural weakpoint? i roll engineering to see if i can improve my chances, maybe the bars are greasy, that would make it almost impossible regardless of str. Will i be attempting it in the middle of a fight?

Chapter and verse plz, this is a common situation so "the DM will asspull the adjustment" is not an acceptable answer.
In PnP is the only real acceptable answer. Rules dont matter, the power of the DM is absolute.

A character with STR 18/25 needs to push a heavy boulder over a cliffside. How is his chance of success determined?
Str check i guess, or compare his max carry weight to the weight of the boulder. What is a heavy boulder? just how heavy is it? how big is it? is there an inclination or is the surface completely flat? What about the weather? has the character exerted himself recently?

Shall I go on?
Sure.
 
Last edited:

Darth Roxor

Royal Dongsmith
Staff Member
Joined
May 29, 2008
Messages
1,878,404
Location
Djibouti
AD&D wasnt a clusterfuck

Okay then.

In a melee or ranged attack, you roll high on a d20 against a static defence
Actually this is one of the games biggest misconceptions, the defense isnt really static, the defender can roll a d20 too, and that value becomes his base AC for the round. Its not actually used all that often, but you can do it.

but get their via unnecessarily weird subtraction algorithm.
Sounds extremely hard to grasp when you are 6. Any teenager or adult should have no problem adjusting the values tho.

In a magical attack, the defender rolls against a completely static number, except if the defender has magic resistance in which case the attacker also rolls but this time with a d100 against a d20.
Wat? no.
MR is a static value, you dont roll it against anything but your own MR. Also tons of spells dont allow for MR, or dont allow for TS, or dont allow for any, or can ask for STR rolls, etc.

Why have two unrelated, layered mechanics to resolve the magic attack
Because the second one is a extremely rare defense, that is always rolled, even against beneficial effects or even magical items.

and why is the attacker rolling against a defence on the ranged and melee attacks but the defender rolling against an attack on the (standard) spell defence mechanic?
As i said, it doesnt necesarily need to be the case against attacks. Against magic the caster merely summon forces that are largely outside of his control, its up to the one affected to fight them off.

In non-weapon proficiency checks, the player rolls low on a d20 against a static number that may be adjusted by the DM at his discretion (with no general guidelines on what kinds of adjustments should apply when)except with thief skills in which case he rolls on a d100. Why is the roll low rather than high, and why use different dice?
Why not, rolling different values and aiming for different numbers brings variety to the main gameplay element of the game.

Thief skills allow progression and start low. NWPs only allow progression by spending extra slots, and the base chance = your ability score. Why the difference?
Because thief skills are class based, they grow as long as the character takes levels in the rogue class. Also thief skills are modified by your ability scores as well. NWP are outside of the scope of your class.

And what kind of sense does the NWP mechanic make?
Plenty, makes it clear that its completely divorced from your profession or chosen path. Its the knowledge you get while living your lyfe.

To resolve a fireball attack against, say, a group of three drow, you need:

(1) A roll on d100 against a number from the monster description for each drow, to beat magic resistance
(2) A roll on d20 against a number from the monster description for each where you successfully beat the magic resistance check
(3) A roll of nd6 where n is your character level, which you then need to sum, and divide by 2 for each drow who succeeded in the saving throw
All this ordeal takes like half a minute.

Don't you think this is rather a lot of rolling, comparing, adding, and dividing for resolving a simple AoE spell attack?
No, its simple math.

True or false: characters can opt to use NWP slots to buy thief skills?
That rule doesnt exist as far as i know. But i never looked into it. May have heard something about it at some point.
I do know there are non weapon proficiencies that give bonuses to thieving skills, like being a locksmith for example.

A character with STR 18/25 has a Bend Bars chance of 25%. He notices his jail cell's bars are bronze rather than iron. How does that affect his Bend Bars chance?
I dont know? whats the state of the bars? is there a structural weakpoint? i roll engineering to see if i can improve my chances, maybe the bars are greasy, that would make it almost impossible regardless of str. Will i be attempting it in the middle of a fight?

Chapter and verse plz, this is a common situation so "the DM will asspull the adjustment" is not an acceptable answer.
In PnP is the only real acceptable answer. Rules dont matter, the power of the DM is absolute.

A character with STR 18/25 needs to push a heavy boulder over a cliffside. How is his chance of success determined?
Str check i guess, or compare his max carry weight to the weight of the boulder. What is a heavy boulder? just how heavy is it? how big is it? is there an inclination or is the surface completely flat? What about the weather? has the character exerted himself recently?

Shall I go on?
Sure.
 

Prime Junta

Guest
MR is a static value

Talking about the saving throw. Attacker rolls against MR, defender rolls a die against a static value (their saving throw).

Because the second one is a extremely rare defense, that is always rolled, even against beneficial effects or even magical items.

I know it's a relatively (not extremely) rare defence. That doesn't answer why you have to have two rolls. It's an example of a completely arbitrary rule somebody slapped on "just because."

Why not, rolling different values and aiming for different numbers brings variety to the main gameplay element of the game.

Exactly, and that's a really shallow form of variety. It's entirely cosmetic -- in terms of results, there is no difference between a d20 and a d100 with 5% increments. There is no reason at all to use both, just pick one and stick with it.

Because thief skills are class based, they grow as long as the character takes levels in the rogue class. Also thief skills are modified by your ability scores as well. NWP are outside of the scope of your class.

Yes, but why shouldn't NWPs be allowed to grow like class skills? How does making them rigid, static on/off things contribute to better gameplay?

Plenty, makes it clear that its completely divorced from your profession or chosen path. Its the knowledge you get while living your lyfe.

So taking an NWP in Religion makes you go from complete ignoramus to expert, just like that. Also clerics who don't take the Religion NWP don't know jack shit about religion. And that makes plenty of sense. Right.

All this ordeal takes like half a minute.

Time it.

That rule doesnt exist as far as i know. But i never looked into it. May have heard something about it at some point.
I do know there are non weapon proficiencies that give bonuses to thieving skills, like being a locksmith for example.

And that doesn't strike you as simultaneously complex, counterintuitive, and fuzzy?

I dont know? whats the state of the bars? is there a structural weakpoint? i roll engineering to see if i can improve my chances, maybe the bars are greasy, that would make it almost impossible regardless of str. Will i be attempting it in the middle of a fight?

Exactly: the rules don't say. There is no guidance from the rules for resolving this kind of simple variant of a situation specifically addressed in the situation. The rules are only unambiguous for your set of "standard soft iron bars." If the bars are in any way different -- bronze, steel, rusty, thin, thick, set in crumbly mortar, greasy, etc. -- the rules don't say. They leave it completely up to DM arbitration, with no guidance on how the DM is expected to arbitrate it.

How is this not worse -- nay, abysmally bad -- compared to a system which (1) gives clear guidelines on how the GM should set a tasks difficulty, and (2) gives clear rules on how to resolve tasks with these difficulties?

In PnP is the only real acceptable answer. Rules dont matter, the power of the DM is absolute.

Then why bother having rules at all? This is precisely my beef with AD&D -- outside core combat, the rules are so bad you're falling back on DM asspulls all the fucking time.

Str check i guess, or compare his max carry weight to the weight of the boulder. What is a heavy boulder? just how heavy is it? how big is it? is there an inclination or is the surface completely flat? What about the weather? has the character exerted himself recently?

Exactly: again, the rules don't say. You have to make something up. (I would've taken the Lift Gates probability as the baseline and compared the heft of the boulder to, um, a standard liftable gate, whatever that is, and added a bonus or penalty accordingly. DM asspull again: nothing in the rules to actually recommend, support, or suggest that solution, only because they chose to have a specific rule for "lifting gates" instead of a general rule for "feats of strength," or an even more general one for "resolving tasks with a binary outcome where success is chiefly determined by ability scores rather than skills.")

AD&D simply cannot resolve any gameplay situation not specifically addressed in the rules. It's all left to DM asspull. Conversely, if applied as they're written, the rules lead to all kinds of completely boneheaded results: the NWPs in particular are hyper-specific and hyper-narrow, so you get stuff like, say, farm boys who know how to milk a cow (Animal Husbandry) but don't have a clue about how to plough a field (Agriculture). Outside core combat and thief skills (which are merely clunky), the system is as good as useless.
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom