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Which, if any, fights are supposed to be unwinnable?

jagged-jimmy

Prophet
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Codex 2012
If you can't win the dagger escape method do the "trial by combat" (I think this is supposed to be Gaelian intentionally letting you escape punishment because he doesn't actually want to punish a guard for fucking up Daratan, it's just that he has to do something to maintain noble authority).
That's bad design - the guards must be shitty, so any decent fighter, who just won vs. Antidas has chance to fight them.
Ah, you can have shittier allies in that fight depending on how you did the questline? That must be it, because I had the impression I barely had to contribute for my side to win that fight.
This must be it. How do i become a "better" guardsman?
 

Agesilaus

Antiquity Studio
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Grab the Codex by the pussy Codex USB, 2014 Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Well, I haven't played the IG quest-line in at least half a year, but see what happens if you give yourself a little more intelligence. Some charisma might be nice, too. You completely dumped both those stats, so all you can do is brute force everything; if you're spending skill points on anything but your combat stats, you're doomed to failure with that build.

Perhaps if you were more intelligent, you could take your squadmates to the side during the attack on the tower. You could draw up an alternative battle plan; hell, if you could string a couple of words together you might convince someone to serve as a decoy/fall-guy. When Carrinas hears about that, he might care enough to give you some stronger bodyguards and equipment.

Then again, maybe you just want to fight it out the old fashioned way without using your brain. It's never too late to talk to Antidas, though, and convince him to work with Carrinas. Then you wouldn't have to kill him, and you wouldn't find yourself naked with two guys afterwards.
 

jagged-jimmy

Prophet
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Ok, so i get it. Some more INT will net me a better squad and a no-brainer fight.
I thought that ugly fighter with crafting/a bit alchemy is not that far off. Having to level 2 combat skills *only* seems a bit to restrictive.
 

Agesilaus

Antiquity Studio
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Grab the Codex by the pussy Codex USB, 2014 Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Ok, so i get it. Some more INT will net me a better squad and a no-brainer fight.
I thought that ugly fighter with crafting/a bit alchemy is not that far off. Having to level 2 combat skills *only* seems a bit to restrictive.

Well, you can level 3 combat skills then (Weapon, Defence, Critical Strike). At the end of the day, though, that's the character you made. Every attribute screams "weapon skills"; you dumped int and cha to minimum.

I almost always play a hybrid character, and if I was going IG I'd probably try the following:

7 strength 7 Dex 6 Con 5 Per 7 Int 7 Cha

The 5 per has me a little worried, but it should work. Play around with the stats a little if you don't like it; maybe someone with more IG experience can tell you how INT and CHA will affect the story. The 7 Cha will get you some nice training from the Antidas' doorman. A point or two in streetwise will let a mercenary get instant access to Kemnebi in Maadoran, which means a fun battle with the hundred swords and then more free training. IG probably gives people it likes more training, too, all of which will offset the 5 perception. To be honest, though, I've never dropped perception before (I always want to pass the perception checks as an assassin, loremaster, thief, whatever). I don't think IG needs it, though.

Some people play a talker IG, but that has never really appealed to me.
 

Mozg

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Er, I'm pretty sure I did IG as a psycho idiot with 4 int 4 char and I still has an easy time with that fight. Are there any options or performance related changes that aren't stat checks?
 

Agesilaus

Antiquity Studio
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Grab the Codex by the pussy Codex USB, 2014 Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Er, I'm pretty sure I did IG as a psycho idiot with 4 int 4 char and I still has an easy time with that fight. Are there any options or performance related changes that aren't stat checks?

To get better bodyguards in the palace? I don't think so. You need INT 7 to suggest the battleplan. If you have CHA or talking skills (I forget which) you can get someone else to take the risk. If you succeed, the Carrinas is impressed and... the next mission is to speak with Antidas, right? I think you might be able to use Charisma or talking skills to convince Carrinas to help you if you didn't already impress him. You can also avoid the fight by talking to Antidas successfully.

Anyway, if you only put your skill points into weapon stats, then yes, the fight is very much winnable by brute force. If you are a hybrid or have a weird weapon setup, though, then that battle can be really difficult. Or you could use alchemy and nets/bolas, there's always options.
 

Mozg

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jagged jimmy has 6/6 attack/defense stats and it sounds like the only really wasted non-combat skillpoints are a little in streetwise. Seems like 6/6 qualifies as a full combat build at the end of Teron. It doesn't seem like he should have far harder time than I did unless something else is going on.
 

Shadenuat

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This must be it. How do i become a "better" guardsman?
Basically 6 INT should do it. My 6-10-6-8-6-4 bow-amazon became a good guard, got strong guys and also extra drugs.

Also when she left Teron she got steel dagger/cut chains/weak guys so with 1 point in Daggers I Dagger-Flurried them no prob. Might be harder for not-Dodge character. Trial by combat is also a cakewalk if you have 6+ Dodge.
 

jagged-jimmy

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Rerolled to 6 INT, lowered PER, uped DEX to 8 for 10AP, still 50 HP.

Same bullshit - starving on skill points. All SP went into 7(+1 from last build) Sword/6 Block/3 Critical + 2 Alchemy for poison.

->Cannot deal with Raiders or Mining outpost, because not enough to Crit kill leader and fighting 5-6 dudes just seems insane.
->Killed Thugs, killed Thief group, killed Miltiades Thugs, delt with Feng/rival Loremaster, Refugees+6extra points from their village.

With 6 INT i get +5 Block/Dodge free training which does nothing for the last fight. I get better gear, but with crafting i had good gear. Didn't get drugs, although they were mentioned. Team is the same, didn't notice any difference.

The only winning strategy is still to rely on 3 Crit to atleast get -30 HP on Antidas through dialog, finish him off, lure Dellar away. Again finished with 6 HP watching the fight from the corner, when Dellar left me and run back to fight.

Bottom line: i am making a pure fighter build and struggle to survive (not a single fight felt easy, except for thugs). It seems like i am missing some magic awesome build from VD's mind.
 

Agesilaus

Antiquity Studio
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Grab the Codex by the pussy Codex USB, 2014 Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
I don't know man, you might just suck. Is there a youtube tutorial video on how to own at combat?

Anyway, not being able to defeat the outpost or the raiders is nothing to be ashamed about. Those are tough fights, the majority of my characters, even my combat ones, just solve it in another way. I only bother with them if I'm trying to rack up a huge body count for some sort of competition (like the psychopaths thread).

If you really want to beat the outpost, try using a ranged weapon with poison, and get good poison from the alchemist/daratan/your own skills. You will easily win, the only person that might be difficult is the crossbow (in which case approach, CS the leader in dialogue, shoot the ranged with a hand xbow while holding shield, then run away).
 

Shadenuat

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All SP went into 7(+1 from last build) Sword/6 Block/3 Critical + 2 Alchemy for poison.
You wasted too many points on weapon skill. Try a more even build with 5 points in weapon and defensive skill. Pump Alchemy to 4 for better poison and crowd control option. Concider dumping CON to 6 for more PER. Maybe you will have points to spare for Critical Strike then too.
Poison wine in Mining Outpost with your own poison by intimidating guy in shanty town with [Body Count].
With Critical Strike 3 and poison from assasins you might end up fighting just 2 guys.

AoD is actually not very welcoming to just dumb minmaxed fighters. I remember what a stonewall Imperial Guard line was back in the old demo for characters with 4 INT/CHA.

You might also concider changing your weapon choice. Try Maces, they have nice knockdown ability, or Axes for better damage, or even Bows for poison-cheese.
Mix some flame and black powder bombs. Buy some bolas.
 
Last edited:
Joined
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Once and Future Wasteland
Serpent in the Staglands Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath
You wasted too many points on weapon skill. Try a more even build with 5 points in weapon and defensive skill. Pump Alchemy to 4 for better poison and crowd control option.

Other thing is that it's usually better to boost defensive skill before offensive one. After 5 points in weapon I probably wouldn't invest in it again until I had 8 in my defensive one.

oD is actually not very welcoming to just dumb minmaxed fighters. I remember what a stonewall Imperial Guard line was back in the old demo for characters with 4 INT/CHA.

Ehhhhh...dunno about that. My 10/9/9/4/4/4 axeman easily beat all fights (a couple of them I did need a single reload for) except Aemolas raiders during Teron segment and Agathoth. Every other combat build I've tried fared much worse (not bad, just not that OP).
 

Shadenuat

Arcane
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Other thing is that it's usually better to boost defensive skill before offensive one. After 5 points in weapon I probably wouldn't invest in it again until I had 8 in my defensive one.
Yeah, 8 or better 9 in skills like Block makes all the difference. You actually begin to feel almost invulnerable where you were just destroyed in 1-2 turns before.

Ehhhhh...dunno about that. My 10/9/9/4/4/4 axeman easily beat all fights
I never played such characters after release. Everything I played had at least some PER or INT. Never played a character with CON higher than 6.
I don't actually see much value in lots of HP in this game (although STR and DEX are good).
If I would try to make a 100% combat char I would be more interested in trying PER 10 to work and reach some ridiculous levels of accuracy (aimed: arms with 2 hander, mmmm).

For the most part, I relied on kiting, weapon special abilities and crafting in my fights so far.
 
Last edited:

axedice

Cipher
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Sep 11, 2007
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465
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Mersin
Did it with 4int/cha non-social with craft tanky shield axe build. The only reason for reloads was trying to get more "last hits" for body count, but I wasn't able to up it since my teammates basically decimated the guards. I had 5 crit and Antidas and his xbow were out of the game, so I'm not sure how much of a danger he poses. 5 axe / 6 dodge / 4 craft / 5crit IIRC
 

ZagorTeNej

Arcane
Joined
Dec 10, 2012
Messages
1,980
Rerolled to 6 INT, lowered PER, uped DEX to 8 for 10AP, still 50 HP.

Same bullshit - starving on skill points. All SP went into 7(+1 from last build) Sword/6 Block/3 Critical + 2 Alchemy for poison.

->Cannot deal with Raiders or Mining outpost, because not enough to Crit kill leader and fighting 5-6 dudes just seems insane.
->Killed Thugs, killed Thief group, killed Miltiades Thugs, delt with Feng/rival Loremaster, Refugees+6extra points from their village.

With 6 INT i get +5 Block/Dodge free training which does nothing for the last fight. I get better gear, but with crafting i had good gear. Didn't get drugs, although they were mentioned. Team is the same, didn't notice any difference.

The only winning strategy is still to rely on 3 Crit to atleast get -30 HP on Antidas through dialog, finish him off, lure Dellar away. Again finished with 6 HP watching the fight from the corner, when Dellar left me and run back to fight.

Bottom line: i am making a pure fighter build and struggle to survive (not a single fight felt easy, except for thugs). It seems like i am missing some magic awesome build from VD's mind.

First of all, you're a blocker so I'd forget about critical strike and alchemy (for now), focus on what blocker should be good at, an unstoppable armored juggernaut. That basically means focusing on your weapon skill of choice (axes are easy mode but everything works), blocking, crafting and wearing the heaviest (crafted) armor depending on your DEX/AP (with 8 DEX that means Lorica for now).

Raiders and Outpost are very doable with any combat focused build and they net you a lot of SPs which makes Antidas battle much more manageable. Here's a play-by-play with Raiders/bandits with a similar build to yours:

screenshot_002_00000.jpg

You can get these stats easily which just the fights you managed to beat already (assassin, dudes attacking Vardanis, a group of thugs near the merchant square and Militades fights).

screenshot_002_00002.jpg

Use Sharpening stone (the smith sells 3), with 4 crafting it gives you 2 bonus damage which is nothing to scoff at. Battles at Teron especially are battles of small numbers. Also cary an extra shield to replace when the one you're wearing takes too much damage.

screenshot_002_00003.jpg

You can initiate the fight yourself here and since the leader (Esbenus) is a blocker and isn't holding a shield (ie his defense is shit) it means you'll able to give him a nice whack to the head followed by a fast attack to open up the fight.

screenshot_002_00005.jpg

You'll get surrounded but focus on Esbenus first and attack with a combo of power and fast attack each round until he's down. Pay no attention to low hit chance for a power attack, for blockers it represents a chance for him to block your attack with his combined armor+shield DR (not to glance the blow off harmlessly, that's a passive effect from blocking skill) which you'll still hit through (thanks to 10 STR and sharpening stone) and likely dent his shield (reduce DR) several times.

screenshot_002_00006.jpg

screenshot_002_00008.jpg

screenshot_002_00010.jpg

screenshot_002_00011.jpg

Once he's down take on the rest with the combo of two fast attacks followed by a shield bash (to push the opponent way and make him waste AP), you should be fine.

Of course, this is all without using game changers that is available to every char regardless of the skill like nets and bolas (very powerful, I think the guy at the merchant guild in Teron sells 2-3).
 

Tigranes

Arcane
Joined
Jan 8, 2009
Messages
10,350
Golden rule: not even the most hardcore fighter should need more than 5/5 attack/defence skill to kill everything in Teron. (That might mean 6/4 for you, or maybe, say, 4/4/4 to include CS, depending on the build.) If you're having to put in more to survive, that means you suck at combat, which may mean you're not using all your options, your choice of gear is weird, etc. In other words, look for different solutions in different places, and not your skill points.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
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Messages
28,024
It's scary how many people couldn't handle the tutorial fights. Some people even cited it as a reason for refund - "died in the terrible tutorial". Some people (including reviewers) were upset that they failed at something during the vignettes because they were firmly convinced that failing at something so early is bad design.
 

Eyestabber

Arcane
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Even the raiders in Aemolas' village? I haven't been able to kill them while still in Teron with any melee build.

Yeah, that's an "unwinnable" fight I think. The game presses you into inviting them to Aemolas' house and killing their leader there. And the quest doesn't update after that (bug?).
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
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It's a very tough fight if you go there right away, but if you go to Maadoran first, gain some skills and gear, it's more than doable.
 

Black

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If you're puzzled as to why people behave this way, it's because the industry made them this way.
The American AAA industry.
bpnyEyp.png


You've been in game dev too long and now you're seeing the scorched land.
 

Eyestabber

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It's a very tough fight if you go there right away, but if you go to Maadoran first, gain some skills and gear, it's more than doable.

W8, whut? You can go back to that particular quest?! Because most quests in this game seem to vanish once you leave their correspondent hub. Locking down the abyss, for example, was a bit heavy handed, no?
 

ZagorTeNej

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Dec 10, 2012
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Even the raiders in Aemolas' village? I haven't been able to kill them while still in Teron with any melee build.

Not with 5/5 in combat stats and not with a hybrid build (atleast I couldn't manage, maybe somebody did with bombs/alchemy) but I did it with an axe/dodger and sword/dodger (both were 10 10 6 4 6 4 in stats focused on sword or axe, dodge and crafting) but I had to wear an iron Imperial Armor (can be bought from Shorty if you're an Imperial Guard or you can craft one obviously) and use that spot at the collapsed wall in the village so they couldn't surround me, also employed nets.

I never tried that fight with a blocker now that I think about it, will give it a shot.
 

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