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Why a game like Daggerfall can't be made today.

Psilon

Erudite
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Codex retirement
micmu said:
I think they've said cities are interior cells now (like that lame Tribunal expanison for MW). You can't beam through entry gates while riding.
Really? Then yeccch. Mournhold was an awful, awful city, largely because of the constraints imposed by it being an interior cell. No decent automap, no levitation (which really screwed my archer-mage), and so on.
 

Elwro

Arcane
Joined
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Messages
11,746
Location
Krakow, Poland
Divinity: Original Sin Wasteland 2
So, if the walled-in cities are interior cells now, will I be able to get iniside them by flying over the walls (like I frequently did in Daggerfall)?
 

Chefe

Erudite
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Messages
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MrSmileyFaceDude said:
Mostly because if they could go through load doors, they could go into spaces that were too small for them to fit (like houses). The gates to the walled cities are load doors.

We could have the cities be open like most of them were in Morrowind, and there are settlements that have no walls -- but this way we're not loading up an entire city's worth of art, NPCs and activity if you're just passing by. We just load up simplified versions of the architecture inside so that you can see the buildings if you're on a mountain overlooking a city.

You mean, in all of your vast programming prowess you couldn't create a "load door" and a "city load door" difference? For instance, a city gate would be labeled as a "city load door", thus allowing for horse entry, while everything else would be designated as a "normal load door" where horses can't enter. In the words of a great poet: "DUUUUUUUUUHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!"

Walled cities in seperate cells are a good thing, though. Not for villages, of course, but for big cities this will certainly alleviate the lagging problems that Vivec and, most notably, Balmora had.
 

Tintin

Arbiter
Joined
Jun 28, 2005
Messages
1,480
Chefe said:
Was there any logical reasoning behind not letting you ride them in cities?

Disrupts the "radiant" AI?

You're just complaining because...you can. Either way, in real cities they wouldn't let horses come galloping in, and MFSD just said that this is in big walled cities, with gates, and of which guards would plausibly take your horse away before you enter. I see no breaking of realism here.
 

GhanBuriGhan

Erudite
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Messages
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MrSmileyFaceDude said:
Response from Chefe predicted with 100% accuracy. *pays self $5*

Sort of a valid point though, no? Couldn't you have and avoided another grumble point? And indeed, what do we see when we fly over or near a city and peek in? And what do we see when we fly inside a city and peak out? Or is it like Mournhold, "No fly zone in or near major citys, as of 9-11"? And if I can't fly, what if I build myself a pillow-staircase up the city wall?
 

Chefe

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Messages
4,731
Tintin said:
You're just complaining because...you can. Either way, in real cities they wouldn't let horses come galloping in, and MFSD just said that this is in big walled cities, with gates, and of which guards would plausibly take your horse away before you enter. I see no breaking of realism here.

Tell me, is it that you have very selective reading skills or you just don't know how to use the "Previous" button?

...

Chefe said:
Tintin said:
Because I'm sure in a real city, nobody would mind big horses galloping around the marketplace, turning things over, hitting people, stomping on people's feet, eating market sellers food.

Use your head....

You dumbfuck, that's the point. To do whatever you want. To cause a ruckus if your character wants to and see how the game world reacts.

And, like has been mentioned, horses were allowed in cities in the past. In fact, they were quite common. Fuck, they're still allowed in cities with modern horse-drawn carriages. You do have enough brains to realize that they don't gallop full speed through cities, right? That they walk slowly? Am I being clear? Do I need to hit you in the head with a fucking frying pan to get through? Shit, you just get dumber by the post.
 

Chefe

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Messages
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MrSmileyFaceDude said:
Response from Chefe predicted with 100% accuracy. *pays self $5*

Funny, I predicted you wouldn't address what I said. With 100% accuracy to boot.

*pays self a better RPG*
 

bryce777

Erudite
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Messages
4,225
Location
In my country the system operates YOU
Tintin said:
Chefe said:
Was there any logical reasoning behind not letting you ride them in cities?

Disrupts the "radiant" AI?

You're just complaining because...you can. Either way, in real cities they wouldn't let horses come galloping in, and MFSD just said that this is in big walled cities, with gates, and of which guards would plausibly take your horse away before you enter. I see no breaking of realism here.

You are nuts if you think they would not let horses in a city. you know, LIKE EVERY MAJOR CITY IN THE MODERN WORLD. Even today they have horses in most every major modern city so long as they follow the rules of the road.

before horseless carriages, how do you think people got around?

It is a pretty lame thing to complain about, but you are simply (as is often the case) talking nonsense.
 

Proweler

Scholar
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Jun 30, 2005
Messages
203
MrSmileyFaceDude said:
Mostly because if they could go through load doors, they could go into spaces that were too small for them to fit (like houses). The gates to the walled cities are load doors.

We could have the cities be open like most of them were in Morrowind, and there are settlements that have no walls -- but this way we're not loading up an entire city's worth of art, NPCs and activity if you're just passing by. We just load up simplified versions of the architecture inside so that you can see the buildings if you're on a mountain overlooking a city.

Didn't Q&A told you that they hated Mournhold's ant trap like setup? Ruined all feeling of style for thieves and mages. No more sneaking back in to the city after you had been chased out by the guards or making a ballistic entery.

But I guess a mod could fix this. Make the doors swing inward and transport the player whit horse to the interior once he crosses a certain line. Just got to figure out how to do the same for NPC's.

Got to love a game you can help make yourselves.
 

Proweler

Scholar
Joined
Jun 30, 2005
Messages
203
crpgnut said:
Either we sacrifice depth (Daggerfall) or eye candy (Morrowind). Eye candy sells so depth is thrown out the door. I can't argue with their decision either, from a business standpoint.

Morrowind sold ergo eye candy is not all that important.
 

MrSmileyFaceDude

Bethesda Game Studios
Developer
Joined
Sep 24, 2004
Messages
716
You could do that, Proweler, and then whenever you were close to a city, everything associated with the city would load and slow the game down -- even if you had no intention of entering the city itself. But be my guest.

You can't fly, climb or jump over the city walls, Ghanburighan, so that's not an issue, but you can see landscape and such that's outside the walls if the terrain is high enough outside or if you can get up to a high enough elevation inside the city.

If you really want horses in the cities, mod it in. We decided to have stables outside and not allow them in. I honestly don't see why this is such a bone of contention, unless it's just complaining for the sake of complaining. If you want a lore explanation, maybe there's a directive from the offices of his Imperial Majesty saying that in order to foster a more civilized Cyrodiil, horses and other beasts are banned from the confines of the cities.
 

Tintin

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unless it's just complaining for the sake of complaining.

Bullseye.

You can't fly, climb or jump over the city walls,

What happens if you try? From the screenshot of that city (can't remember which one) the city walls don't seem too high, so what would happen if you tried to go over? Invisible wall?
 

Chefe

Erudite
Joined
Feb 26, 2005
Messages
4,731
So, then, Levitation is out too?

And the complaints are coming out because these are pretty dumb gameplay restrictions when the Elder Scrolls traditionally has had none. Sure, no horses in houses or other interiors. I mean, I don't think you could really lead a horse down a dark cave in real life either. But a restriction in cities? Come on. It's just another thing to add to the ever-growing list of restrictions.

And you still didn't answer my question to why the expert programmers at Bethesda didn't just make two different types of load doors - one for cities and one for everything else.
 

Elwro

Arcane
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11,746
Location
Krakow, Poland
Divinity: Original Sin Wasteland 2
MrSmileyFaceDude said:
You can't fly, climb or jump over the city walls.
It's a pity. It could for example be helpful if guards were after you in a certain town and you just had to get to a certain building. Is flying completely out, then? If not, what happens if someone flying happily over the countryside encounters a city cell?
 

Kraszu

Prophet
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What happens if you try? From the screenshot of that city (can't remember which one) the city walls don't seem too high, so what would happen if you tried to go over? Invisible wall?

Loading your last save...
 

Psilon

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MrSmileyFaceDude said:
You can't fly, climb or jump over the city walls, Ghanburighan, so that's not an issue, but you can see landscape and such that's outside the walls if the terrain is high enough outside or if you can get up to a high enough elevation inside the city.
Is this implemented as a no-fly zone or as an altitude restriction? Being able to levitate out of the way when Theater Critic #223 decides he's had enough and pulls out a concealed claymore would be a very handy ability.
 

Tintin

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Messages
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Kraszu said:
What happens if you try? From the screenshot of that city (can't remember which one) the city walls don't seem too high, so what would happen if you tried to go over? Invisible wall?

Loading your last save...

Somehow I doubt it. Unless you were trying very hard to be your (non) clever little self.
 

HardCode

Erudite
Joined
Aug 23, 2005
Messages
1,138
MrSmileyFaceDude said:
We just load up simplified versions of the architecture inside so that you can see the buildings if you're on a mountain overlooking a city

Okay, at least looking in on the city will show the actual city in some form. Nice touch considering ...

MrSmileyFaceDude said:
You could do that, Proweler, and then whenever you were close to a city, everything associated with the city would load and slow the game down -- even if you had no intention of entering the city itself. But be my guest.

There are only 8 or so major cities in 16 square miles, so this would be a non-issue almost all of the time. How often will we need to be near the sparse number of large cities and not need to enter?

MrSmileyFaceDude said:
You can't fly, climb or jump over the city walls, ...

This is a completely stupid limitation.

MrSmileyFaceDude said:
If you really want horses in the cities, mod it in. We decided to have stables outside and not allow them in. I honestly don't see why this is such a bone of contention, unless it's just complaining for the sake of complaining. If you want a lore explanation, maybe there's a directive from the offices of his Imperial Majesty saying that in order to foster a more civilized Cyrodiil, horses and other beasts are banned from the confines of the cities.

Nothing wrong with setting up the game world having horses banned from cities, but there IS a certain elegance to have the PC find that out by having the City Guard chase them down and give them a warning, or having your horse crash a stall and dealing with the merchant, as mentioned above, as opposed to preventing it via programming code. I hope you can see the difference. We sure can. Just to make clear what that difference is: PC to world interaction - cause and effect - finding out the hard way - purposefully making trouble.
 

GhanBuriGhan

Erudite
Joined
Aug 8, 2005
Messages
1,170
MrSmileyFaceDude said:
You could do that, Proweler, and then whenever you were close to a city, everything associated with the city would load and slow the game down -- even if you had no intention of entering the city itself. But be my guest.

You can't fly, climb or jump over the city walls, Ghanburighan, so that's not an issue, but you can see landscape and such that's outside the walls if the terrain is high enough outside or if you can get up to a high enough elevation inside the city.

If you really want horses in the cities, mod it in. We decided to have stables outside and not allow them in. I honestly don't see why this is such a bone of contention, unless it's just complaining for the sake of complaining. If you want a lore explanation, maybe there's a directive from the offices of his Imperial Majesty saying that in order to foster a more civilized Cyrodiil, horses and other beasts are banned from the confines of the cities.

Not a big deal. But I guess I like to learn more about why certain things are the way they are - the would-be game designer in me is curious. Especially when a solution seems simple as in this case. Can you tell me why its not as simple as I think?

BTW, its cool that landscape shows - would large buildibgs show too, from the outside?
Nevermind you just answered that :)
 

Kraszu

Prophet
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Poland
Tintin said:
Kraszu said:
What happens if you try? From the screenshot of that city (can't remember which one) the city walls don't seem too high, so what would happen if you tried to go over? Invisible wall?

Loading your last save...

Somehow I doubt it. Unless you were trying very hard to be your (non) clever little self.

detective dipshit on case.
 

Chefe

Erudite
Joined
Feb 26, 2005
Messages
4,731
GhanBuriGhan said:
Not a big deal. But I guess I like to learn more about why certain things are the way they are - the would-be game designer in me is curious. Especially when a solution seems simple as in this case. Can you tell me why its not as simple as I think?

'Would-be' game designer?

Well then, you need game designer answers. Because, after all, if you want to become a game designer you need to learn how to bullshit.

Observe:

"We're not ready to explain it yet, but trust us, it'll be cool."
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Messages
28,024
MrSmileyFaceDude said:
You can't fly, climb or jump over the city walls, Ghanburighan, so that's not an issue, but you can see landscape...
That is Bethesda's game design philosophy in a nutshell.
 

Tintin

Arbiter
Joined
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Messages
1,480
Kraszu said:
Tintin said:
Kraszu said:
What happens if you try? From the screenshot of that city (can't remember which one) the city walls don't seem too high, so what would happen if you tried to go over? Invisible wall?

Loading your last save...

Somehow I doubt it. Unless you were trying very hard to be your (non) clever little self.

detective dipshit on case.

How witty and clever. Bravo, you have really shown me. Pow!
 

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