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Why all the NWN 2 hate?

Lyric Suite

Converting to Islam
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Mar 23, 2006
Messages
56,157
While this is true for Bioware right now, I actually feel pretty much the exact same about DA:O that I do about NWN2. Both are hopelessly mediocre games marred by trash mobs, boring combat systems, shitty plot, and annoying companions. But at the same time, they each have flashes of real inspiration that make it so much more infuriating that most of the game is shit.

The difference still is that Obsidian could have given us another Torment at the drop of a hat. Mask of the Betrayer is proof of this. NWN2 OC was mediocre on purpose. Just think about that.
 

Semper

Cipher
Joined
Jan 12, 2012
Messages
747
MCA Project: Eternity
Ah yes, the Character Design is from Hell

if you can't stand the design, just zoom out.

even halfway zoomed in it's not that bad.

i can't stand playing in such a perspective, but elanee's head ain't that gruesome. can't say that i've seen better design in nwn1.

back to how you should play nwn2...
 

Kem0sabe

Arcane
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Azores Islands
I agree. I remember that BG 2 had loading screens (latter removed) stating that NWN would allow us to import our BG characters, HEAVILY implying that NWN would be more of the same. And what did they deliver? A shitty solo adventure using fucking D&D rules? REALLY!? D&D was NEVER meant for fucking solo adventures, what the hell is WRONG with these people? NWN OC's crimes cannot be forgotten nor can they be forgiven. Ever. NWN 2 gave us our parties back, that ought to count for something.

Well, despite the occasional troll, this thread helped me see that I enjoy NWN 2 because the things the game does RIGHT are the things I enjoy the most (D&D 3.5, tinkering with builds, planning my gear progression and so on) and the things the game does WRONG don't really bother me much. I see another person posted a direct link to a mod that fixes the camera issues I mentioned earlier. Maybe that will convince some people to give NWN 2 another shot. Of course, they won't post positive NWN 2 experiences on the Codex for fear of not being considered "cool".

I think it all comes down to the fact that "Implementing a Dungeons and Dragons Ruleset" is something that heavily influences my [positive] opinion towards a game. If the game does not commit any major sins against the sanctity of D&D rules (such as REMOVING THE FUCKING PARTY), I'm always willing to forgive and enjoy said game.
You have mediocre taste in rpgs.
 
Self-Ejected

Lilura

RPG Codex Dragon Lady
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Messages
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If you ever thought D&D was about you sitting around the table controlling what your friends do, then I weep for you, and humanity, for you being in the genepool.
 
Joined
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I think this post best summarised my feelings about NWN2 OC:

I think the NWN2 companions and particularly the design philosophy that went into them, will remain, for all of time, not merely awful, but inexplicably awful. It's just a mind-boggling prospect that a roomful of intelligent people nodded their way through,

"Okay, we're going to aim to write up a solid character concept for a companion of every single base class in-game bar one, and all of them will be crucial to the game's narrative. Obviously I don't mean by this that their motives and backstories will be subtly interwoven with the player's own motives and backstory, making them compelling three-dimensional characters who echo and explore the themes of the game. No, I mean that at some point the player will trigger a compulsory conversation where they encounter one of the companions engaged in some completely random and banal activity, like fighting thugs or having their beloved barn burnt down (!), and for no reason at all the companion will suddenly insist on joining forces with the player, and we'll even give the player options to be all like, 'Well, no, there's no reason at all for you to decide you want to hang around with me, since I'm the guy who just actively encouraged those soldiers to murder you, you're supposed to be an actual person with your own sense of agency and decision-making abilities, this is bizarre, fuck off', but the companion will pretend they haven't heard and insist on joining the party anyway and then even if the player never speaks to them again they'll still hang around for the next 40 hours, or a year of their lives in gameworld-time or whatever, and they'll even volunteer to defend a keep against overwhelming odds on the player's behalf for no reason, but then the player will be forced to bring them along to the final dungeon and then they'll totally betray the player. It's going to be awesome."

And then MotB came along and it was as if everybody's brains popped back in.
 

pippin

Guest
The whole NWN saga was meant to be something big, like the new generation's gold box games. The longevity of the first game + the huge number of ugc is a proof of that. I think people hates NWN2 because they were expecting more of Obsidian, and because they aren't Bioware. Codex often frowns on Bio, but they aim to please and they know their audience. Obsidian, from my perspective, wanted to make their own kind of rpg, but also were presented with the conflict of making a sequel to a very big game. This is why OC sucks but MotB and SoZ are enjoyable, and it's also the reason why PoE will be kinda like the be all end all for Obsidian as an rpg developer. I don't really think they will fail or something like that, since people in general were quite positive about Div:Os and Wl2, so let's hope for the best.

All the NWN2 talk makes me want to play the game again, goddamit :P
 

Lyric Suite

Converting to Islam
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Messages
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And what purpose is that?

The point was to make a typical D&D adventure that could serve as a model for newcomers (the whole campaign was essentially one large tutorial). Elitism is bad for business, which is apparently the "lesson" they learned from Black Isle going bankrupt. But more specifically, Obsidian has a tendency to set rigid goals or design principles for themselves because that's the "professional" thing to do, or so one is to guess. So if they start out with wanting to make a generic RPG adventure, they'll follow that plan to the letter, and this way of doing things can stifle creativity like nothing else. Its also quite obvious that they were deliberately following the Bioware formula. Their previous game, KOTOR 2, was a departure from that and i think sales suffered from it (or so the theory goes i guess).

But in a way, i think Obsidian were itching to make a Torment like game, but couldn't, so they tried to find ways to work that in while fulfilling their commercial obligation. They tried by meeting Bioware half-way with KOTOR 2, but that didn't work. They tried with NWN2 by making the OC as generic as possible in order to give themselves an excuse to do what they wanted in future modules, which they sort of did. But i guess that too lead to a decrease in sales, so they gave up altogether. This is all speculation here but its pretty clear by following their (d)evolution as a gaming company.
 
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Eyestabber

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PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015
If you ever thought D&D was about you sitting around the table controlling what your friends do, then I weep for you, and humanity, for you being in the genepool.

Are you high or something? I never wrote anything like that.
 

SarcasticUndertones

Prospernaut
Joined
Nov 24, 2014
Messages
472
The difference still is that Obsidian could have given us another Torment at the drop of a hat. Mask of the Betrayer is proof of this. NWN2 OC was mediocre on purpose. Just think about that.

Wait a fucking minute here.

MOTB was better than the OC (not saying much there), but it wasn't that good, it was 'ok' but it's hardly this work of creative genius everyone calls it.. It was passable, it was what the original OC should have been but it's hardly outstanding and to put it anywhere near a reference to Torment (I assume you are talking in terms of writing and plot) is simple brain damage.

PS:T was a UNIQUE convergence of planets, because NOTHING any of the creators have done since then has been anywhere close to that kind of imagination or quality, PS:T was a fluke. There's NO WAY Obsidian with their absolute lack of quality could get even close to another Torment. NO WAY, NO HOW.
 
Self-Ejected

Lilura

RPG Codex Dragon Lady
Joined
Feb 13, 2013
Messages
5,274
If ToEE "always" ends up corrupt or unplayable, that's either really bad luck or user error. Maybe you just kept using the same save slot and it got fragmented, maybe you didn't turn off auto-save (Co8 readme tells you to). Who knows?

I've played ToEE through several times, both with Co8 and without it and never had a game go bad.

And D&D 3.x is far superior than the arbitrary and archaic AD&D2.0 which - at least in cRPG form - probably has the most uninteresting char-gen and -dev outside of popamoles and Pillars of Eternity. And the saving throw system is a mess, with THAC0 sucking too! Leveling up is SO boring.. all you do is assign a proficiency, assign a thief skill, oh I got +0.5 ApR on my seventh level fancy that! And uh, what's with the demi-human bonuses to saves based on every 3.5 con... :roll:

Not saying D&D 3.x is perfect (that honor's reserved for Ars Magica), but AD&D2.0 is borderline excrement.
 

SarcasticUndertones

Prospernaut
Joined
Nov 24, 2014
Messages
472
If ToEE "always" ends up corrupt or unplayable, that's either really bad luck or user error. Maybe you just kept using the same save slot and it got fragmented, maybe you didn't turn off auto-save (Co8 readme tells you to). Who knows?

I've played ToEE through several times, both with Co8 and without it and never had a game go bad.

And D&D 3.x is far superior than the arbitrary and archaic AD&D2 which, at least in cRPG form, probably has the most uninteresting char-gen and -dev outside of popamoles. And the saving throw system is a mess, with THAC0 sucking too! Leveling up is so boring.. assign a proficiency, assign a thief skill, oh I got +0.5 ApR on my seventh level fancy that! And uh, what's with the demi-human bonuses to saves based on every 3.5 con... :roll:

Not saying D&D 3.x is perfect (that honor's reserved for Ars Magica), but AD&D2.0 is borderline excrement.


LOL
 

Lyric Suite

Converting to Islam
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Mar 23, 2006
Messages
56,157
The writing in MOTB was easily on par with anything in Torment. You are just being blinded by edginess. The only difference is that Torment had a much wider scope and had the advantage of being a full game rather than a mere expansion.

At any rate, the point is that the capability is there, but it remains unused cause 'reasons.
 

SarcasticUndertones

Prospernaut
Joined
Nov 24, 2014
Messages
472
The writing in MOTB was easily on par with anything in Torment. You are just being blinded by edginess. The only difference is that Torment had a much wider scope and had the advantage of being a full game rather than a mere expansion.

Edgy?

Actually I would have considered your out of step comment was the one said for 'edginess'.. oh and LOL for trying to make the excuse that it wasn't supposed to be a full game, bought as a seperate yes, but it wasn't simply an 'expansion'. Everything they has went in to that game, it was their last chance to redeem themselves... and IF Obsidian are so competant then why wasn't that new found 'quality' carried over to the other modules they did?, because after MOTB and they has felt they had redeemed themselves, they went straight back in to shit mode for the rest of the stuff they did for NWN2.

So no, no kudos for Obsidian.
 
Self-Ejected

Lilura

RPG Codex Dragon Lady
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Feb 13, 2013
Messages
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PS:T is more memorable for its setting than its writing. Take away the planes, philosophies, factions and cant (none of which were originated by Black Isle), then throw TNO into the Forgotten Realms. I rest my case.
 

Durante

Learned
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Shadorwun: Hong Kong
You are bad and have bad opinions. NWN1 OC is vastly superior, and I can still remember some of the dungeons, boss fights and general plot. All I vaguely recall from NWN2 is the castle, the trial, the shitty performance and the rubberbanding.

It's clear your mind has degenerated into a lumpy soup from all those years spent on SJWGAF
That's a silly thing to say, considering that I played the NWN1 OC at its launch and already identified it as the worst piece of shit I ever had the misfortune of buying at full price at that point - years before I even knew what a "GAF" was :P

The only reason I remember the NWN1 OC is because it is the worst disappointment I ever suffered in RPGs, or gaming in general.

No, NWN1 OC is bland and boring and has no redeemable features. It's Russian shovelware levels of bad.
Pretty much this.
 

Lyric Suite

Converting to Islam
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Mar 23, 2006
Messages
56,157
Torment's writing is good in and of itself. Same goes for MOTB. I remember the surprise when i first played that game. I was talking to the guy outside of Musalntir and right there and then i realized that conversation alone had better writing than anything from the OC. You can't tell that was just a fluke. Companies like Bioware or Bethesda wouldn't be able to get flukes like that. The talent simply isn't there. Therefore, it is only logical to assume that stuff like the OC were dumped down on purpose.
 

Sykar

Arcane
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Dec 2, 2014
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Turn right after Alpha Centauri
That's a silly thing to say, considering that I played the NWN1 OC at its launch and already identified it as the worst piece of shit I ever had the misfortune of buying at full price at that point - years before I even knew what a "GAF" was :P

The only reason I remember the NWN1 OC is because it is the worst disappointment I ever suffered in RPGs, or gaming in general.

Pretty much this.

Reads like you didn't play Oblividerp at release. I envy you.
 

Durante

Learned
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Shadorwun: Hong Kong
Reads like you didn't play Oblividerp at release. I envy you.
I did, but I never liked Morrowind quite as much as Baldur's Gate 2, and I don't hate even Oblivion quite as much as the NWN1 OC.
(Yeah, I was young and naive and thought that what I'd get with NWN would be a spiritual successor to BG2)
 

Bio Force Ape

Arcane
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Feb 24, 2014
Messages
3,427
I remember playing a parody module for NWN someone had made as a way of making fun of all the bad modders out there. It featured all the usual amateurish mistakes: every NPC and monster had the "Aasimar, male" voice-set, encounters appeared out of thin air 10 feet in front of you when you stepped on the trigger, etc.

And then I found those exact same shitty amateurish mistakes in the NWN2 OC. They literally would have gotten better stuff out of one of the better NWN modders. I've always chosen to blame that shit on Annie Mitsoda (was she working for them then?). Or an intern maybe? Just unforgivable.

On top of that it's a linear on-rails story with only a handful of placebo choices. And cut-scene after cut-scene after cut-scene. Are you making a movie or a game?
 

Sykar

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Turn right after Alpha Centauri
I did, but I never liked Morrowind quite as much as Baldur's Gate 2, and I don't hate even Oblivion quite as much as the NWN1 OC.
(Yeah, I was young and naive and thought that what I'd get with NWN would be a spiritual successor to BG2)

In my opinion nothing was as terrible as that level scaling abomination with terribly retarded story, inconsistent world and worst looking NPCs ever. Never mind the dumbing down, terribad interface (font size 36 with nested tabs, seriously?), etc.
 
Joined
Dec 31, 2014
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It's the sort of game you play once, have a decent amount of fun with, and never touch again. Utterly mediocre (which in some cases can be worse than bad, though it's certainly better than the NWN1 OC).
 

hell bovine

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Secret Level
Wait a fucking minute here.

MOTB was better than the OC (not saying much there), but it wasn't that good, it was 'ok' but it's hardly this work of creative genius everyone calls it.. It was passable, it was what the original OC should have been but it's hardly outstanding and to put it anywhere near a reference to Torment (I assume you are talking in terms of writing and plot) is simple brain damage.
I agree. MotB was a definitive improvement over the OC in terms of story (at least I remember what it was about), but that's it. Fall of Grace alone was better than any MotB companion, the only interesting one was the evil spirit. I gave up on the evil playthrough halfway in the game anyway, because the bugs and other annoyances were just that - too annoying. And the good ending was just the game developers chickening out on the possibility, that a good character might sacrifice themselves for a lost cause. How does it even compare to PST ending?
 

GloomFrost

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993
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Northern wastes
Torment's writing is good in and of itself. Same goes for MOTB. I remember the surprise when i first played that game. I was talking to the guy outside of Musalntir and right there and then i realized that conversation alone had better writing than anything from the OC. You can't tell that was just a fluke. Companies like Bioware or Bethesda wouldn't be able to get flukes like that. The talent simply isn't there. Therefore, it is only logical to assume that stuff like the OC were dumped down on purpose.
Also don't forget about the actual gameplay. It is a lot superior to planescape. Things like spirit eater mechanics, crafting and sphere combining, the character development is so much richer with dozens of classes, feats, perks, spells, traits etc, you can spend ages just creating your character. If MOTB was not an expansion pack but a proper massive rpg I probably would be playing it right now instead of sitting on forums lol.
 

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