Official Codex Discord Server

  1. Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.
    Dismiss Notice

Decline Why do MMOs suck so much?

Discussion in 'MMO(RP)G / Online Discussion' started by Frusciante, Nov 4, 2018.

  1. Daemongar Arcane

    Daemongar
    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2010
    Messages:
    3,084
    Location:
    UnterBrae
    Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire BattleTech
    I played UO at the start, and Dark Age of Camelot, and WoW at the beginning.

    Initially with UO and DAoC, there was an air of mystery. You had to ask other players on how to do things, or have friends in real life to tell you where to go. You also had to form informal bands and find methods of speaking to the other players (phone calls or messaging.) UO allowed you to do anything, and it was up to you to figure out what was useful and what wasn't. Actually, it was ingenious. The fun was in learning things and discovering mysteries. There were runes in Britannia in some areas, and I always wondered if there was something to them...

    WoW launched with the same air of mystery. There were literally millions of people all playing at the same time, servers were clogged, and people started the game taking random crafting or other skills. Then we all leveled to 60 and found the dungeons we liked best, we participated in events, and ganked. There wasn't as much mystery, but there were lots of ways to get an edge and unique builds for each class. So, you could really get specific in your build, but the age of "the one ultimate build" wasn't upon us.

    Fast forward to now. Everyone googles everything about a game, folks play with maps open or mods, they look for drops by researching their chars, they ignore the scenery and go directly to the next power-up. Every class has a specific build that others want. There are players playing 10+ hours a day, sites with every bit of detailed information, and volumes of information on every subject on a game.

    Imagine playing D&D in the 80's or so. The DM is setting up the table, and one of the players pulls out tonights module and reads it before the DM starts then directs everyone what to do, what is behind each door, where each trap is, where the key to the next level is. To some, they want to finish the module and get the loot... the rest of us, well, the fun is in finding out what is around the corner. Unfortunately, EVERY MMO is the party with that one guy.

    There was a small window where MMOs could fulfill the tabletop experience but that day is past. The internet (and Day 1 game guides) killed it. If folks think the problem with MMOs is being locked into a specific class, well, you are high. There is too much information out there on games at release that nobody is in the dark unless they choose to be.
     
    • Yes Yes x 2
    • Despair Despair x 2
    • Brofist Brofist x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
    ^ Top  
  2. Norfleet Moderator

    Norfleet
    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2005
    Messages:
    8,288
    As the DM, though, those players are so easy to troll. You let them think they're got it all figured out, then you spring the surprise buttsex on them by changing it up.

    FUN IS A FILTHY PARASITE. WORK MAKES YOU FREE. We play MMOs, not because they are fun, but because they are work.

    Counter-example: Imagine going to work, except that all of your co-workers are utterly incompetent morons. They don't know how to do their jobs, they're aggressively hostile to the notion that there's a correct way to do their jobs, and yet their jobs are so simple a 6 year old can do them, and I know this because I replaced all of them with 6 year olds. Every MMO party is going to be majority these people.
     
    • decline decline x 1
    ^ Top  
  3. Daemongar Arcane

    Daemongar
    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2010
    Messages:
    3,084
    Location:
    UnterBrae
    Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire BattleTech
    A real live DM can do something. The MMO module is fixed. We all know who is around the corner, where the boss is, the likely % of drop, etc.

    Well, there you go.

    Sounds like you are arguing that more folks should have done their research. I still remember the "Safety Dance Boss" in WoW. We'd get there with 25 players and... 10 would be dead in 30 seconds. Every time. BUT it was still fun. That fight would be no fun with everyone knowing the outcome and how to do it.
     
    ^ Top  
  4. Norfleet Moderator

    Norfleet
    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2005
    Messages:
    8,288
    EXACTLY! And that is the best part, taking things out like a well-oiled commando team machine, to the point where the random sod who got dragged along for the ride because he managed to sneak in due to the matchmaking system glitches out thinks you are robots, all without having any fun at all.
     
    • WTF am I reading WTF am I reading x 1
    • (autism) (autism) x 1
    ^ Top  
  5. KeighnMcDeath Learned

    KeighnMcDeath
    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2016
    Messages:
    772
    I’ve never played WOW. I guess it’s still a mystery to me. Damn, I haven’t played a lot of the mmos. The ones I did play had good scenery at the time.
     
    • [citation needed] [citation needed] x 1
    ^ Top  
  6. Daemongar Arcane

    Daemongar
    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2010
    Messages:
    3,084
    Location:
    UnterBrae
    Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire BattleTech
    On the behalf of the random sod who got dragged along because he was a semi-capable healer, Ok, I understand.
     
    ^ Top  
  7. Beastro Arcane

    Beastro
    Joined:
    May 11, 2015
    Messages:
    5,284
    Culture changed around them.

    It's why I say any old style MMO will fail, because the population of people with that old mentality are now tiny.

    Autism jokes get thrown around a bit too much to my liking these days, but it's the only thing that comes to mind reading this.

    Proficiency at a job is a good thing, but it's not the only gain you get from it as you get paid to do it. With an MMO and this mentality... what? You pay to do it?

    Makes me think of the sad shit around sex with robots being a farce of actual sex. This is much the same to do with work.
     
    ^ Top  
  8. KeighnMcDeath Learned

    KeighnMcDeath
    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2016
    Messages:
    772
    What is the mentality of mmo players these days?

    Are the games pay to win?
    Pay to play?
    Rail-road forced world or open world explore?
    A front to get your bank account?
     
    ^ Top  
  9. Ranselknulf Arcane Patron

    Ranselknulf
    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2012
    Messages:
    1,868,604
    Location:
    Best America
    PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy
    Collect loot/trash >> manage your trash bags >> dispose of the trash at the merchant/dump.

    Adventure out into the world for fun?

    naw bro, collect trash.
     
    ^ Top  
  10. Glop_dweller Augur

    Glop_dweller
    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2007
    Messages:
    264
    What's to imagine?
     
    • Cheers!! Cheers!! x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
    ^ Top  
  11. tindrli Arcane

    tindrli
    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2011
    Messages:
    3,786
    Location:
    Dragodol
    Because they are focused to make MONEY instead of everything else
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    ^ Top  
  12. Poseidon00 Educated

    Poseidon00
    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2018
    Messages:
    126
    Because MMO's aren't designed to be fun games, they're designed to be addictions you need to satiate with more and more $.
     
    ^ Top  
  13. Frusciante Arbiter

    Frusciante
    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2012
    Messages:
    663
    Project: Eternity
    Dragon's dogma online does look pretty good from watching some videoclips. At least the combat looks interesting and competent. It doesn't seem that hard to make a proper MMO with combat like that...
     
    ^ Top  
  14. Steamboat Willie Learned

    Steamboat Willie
    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2019
    Messages:
    315
    Because most of them are Korean.
     
    • Racist Racist x 1
    ^ Top  
  15. Dawkinsfan69 Dumbfuck! Dumbfuck Bethestard

    Dawkinsfan69
    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2016
    Messages:
    1,820
    Location:
    Kirkwall
    My dream MMO would have this stuff:
    • Open world sandbox
    • PVP with looting
    • Either Dark Souls style combat or Mount + Blade style combat
    • Base building, clan warfare
    • Just about everything is crafted by players
    • Kenshi style 'down' system, where dying is kinda rare but limbs may get eaten and need replacing or some shit like that
    • Some sort of soft permadeath, maybe where when you die bank items and some stats carry over to next character
    • One 'lineage'/character per account
    This would be the foundation. On top of that, there would be world-fucking events happening a few times a year. Something like:
    • One player solved some crazy ass puzzle and got a weapon that makes him OP as fuck. Clans need to unite to take down this player
    • Players somewhere accidentally release some pissed off ancient demon that ends up roaming the world destroying everything
    Basically things in the world that allow emergent gameplay

    ehh sad thing is this doesn't seem unfeasible but this game will probably never exist
     
    ^ Top  
  16. Pharad Literate

    Pharad
    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2019
    Messages:
    18
    As someone who grew up in the times when WoW, Lineage 2 and the likes were at the top, I would love for more MMORPG's to be there. I think once we get into cloud gaming and all the stuff that is now offered in games with 10ish people playing at once can be done in a MMORPG environment, we will see a revival of MMORPG's
     
    ^ Top  
  17. Nirvash Learned

    Nirvash
    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2017
    Messages:
    388
    Good old mmorpg were "a chat with a game", those days they became "a game with a chat".
     
    • incline incline x 1
    ^ Top  
  18. Damned Registrations Prestigious Gentleman Furry Weeaboo Nazi Nihilist

    Damned Registrations
    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2007
    Messages:
    13,189
    Have any MMOs done much with the concept of a human controlled NPC as part of major events/quests and the like? Always seemed like a cool and pretty viable concept to me. Would solve a lot of the trouble with players just memorizing a boss' script in order to fight it. Even better if the enemy in question has no leash and can just roam around the world, fucking up cities and going wherever it wants. Could do all sorts of cool stuff with that concept. You could even make getting to control the monster a reward for people to compete over. Well, probably not, for metagame considerations, unless you really restricted what it could do and where it could go.
     
    • Fabulously Optimistic Fabulously Optimistic x 1
    ^ Top  
  19. Pharad Literate

    Pharad
    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2019
    Messages:
    18
    Just came across an article that made me think that maybe MMORPG's don't suck at all, maybe we just became ignorant to how good some of the experiences are, or the expectations we have are too great.
    Here's the piece: https://www.eneba.com/blog/the-best-mmorpg-experiences-one-can-partake-in/
    It lists out the best MMORPG experiences in the industry right now and having played most of them I've got to agree, MMORPG isn't dead, it just became more niche. As a lifetime MMORPG gamer I'm glad there's still something for me to enjoy
     
    ^ Top  
  20. Trans-Financial-Man Learned

    Trans-Financial-Man
    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2018
    Messages:
    425
    You're describing Chronicles of Elyria to a tee.



    Has everything you listed.
     
    ^ Top  
  21. Norfleet Moderator

    Norfleet
    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2005
    Messages:
    8,288
    I think you mean the other way around, in the old days, we actually played the game and the chat was merely incidental, if present at all. Nowadays it's mostly about shitposting on the chat, and oh, there's occasionally a game people talk about.
     
    ^ Top  
  22. anvi Liturgist Village Idiot

    anvi
    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2016
    Messages:
    3,489
    Location:
    Norrath
    The problem is that the games cost so much make. It is a problem in other games too, but with MMOs it just costs a really significant budget to bring out such a huge game, and nobody is willing to risk that much on something that isn't proven. They might try one or two ideas but they are not going to stray far from a proven success. In the world of MMOs there have been a bunch of small proven successes, and one really huge proven success (WoW), so everyone just copies the big success. And it mostly didn't work out well but all the failed MMOs usually didn't fail. They might have died, but they died after making a lot of profit. Anyway, MMOs are super expensive so copy WoW and will make money even if they fall short.

    In all this time though I was sure there would be a company that saw the potential in satisfying a niche audience instead of trying to make something for everyone. Admittedly it happened with EVE and one or two others, but I thought there would be something for me amongst all that and there isn't. Vanguard was good for me but that ended. Now we have Pantheon though which is doing exactly what I said. I tried to convince him by email when he was starting the company and I expected to get blown off and he basically said, "we know". The devs know what we want and could make it, but the money men tell them to make a theme park ride that is safe for the whole family.

    Did you try Wildstar, that is more actiony. I personally much prefer WoW Druid to Dogma or Souls type combat. I would like action combat but then these games tend to have you fighting so much, it could get too tiring and repetitive. I find WoW type combat much more tactical though and I much prefer that. My problem with WoW is the way the dungeons work.
     
    ^ Top  
  23. Syl Arbiter

    Syl
    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2011
    Messages:
    434
    Can you explain?
     
    ^ Top  
  24. KeighnMcDeath Learned

    KeighnMcDeath
    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2016
    Messages:
    772
    Are there any hobo-homeless rpgs out there because this sounds like the locals down the block begging for spare coins and cash. Sounds so right too.... organize thine trash.
     
    ^ Top  
  25. anvi Liturgist Village Idiot

    anvi
    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2016
    Messages:
    3,489
    Location:
    Norrath
    So my first MMO was EQ and the dungeons are amazing. They are huge, multiple groups can be in there at the same time, and things can go wrong. You see a room with 3 enemies so attack one, and 6 come because 2 were behind a hidden wall, and one was wandering past at the wrong time and now you have to fight 6 and might wipe unless the group is really good. WoW dungeons are never like that, they are very finely tuned instances, identical every time, never too difficult, same amount of mobs on every pull, everyone does their routine and everyone wins. There are a lot of things about WoW I don't like but the dungeons are what killed it for me the most. Some stuff I miss from WoW though.
     
    ^ Top  

(buying stuff via the above buttons helps us pay the hosting bills, thanks!)