Why do people hate Oblivion so much?

[Sigourn]

Stat based combat and FPP do not mix together very well in my opinion. Unless you take your god damn time and resources and make it obvious that you swing slower than needed or pull string of your bow for a shot that's too weak to penetrate armor, or have some sort of feedback of any kind on what just happened than seeing enigmatic "missed".

You are not wrong. I think Morrowind's combat would have benefited GREATLY from better animations, like those of Gothic and Dark Souls. Animations for missing, dodging, skills that are higher/lower... Morrowind frustrates a lot of people because the visual feedback is minimum, and against their expectations for a 1st person game. Its level of abstraction just isn't present in most first person games, and as a consequence looks jarring.

 

[Squid]

less creative setting

Not to mention they apparently couldn't handle making Cyrodil the environment it was supposed to be so they they made it have "biomes" that represent the province the area was close to.

 

[mfkndggrfll]

When I was playing Oblivion with my friend I never really noticed the level scaling issues. We were too busy rerolling chars with different builds and uglier faces, wandering off into a different direction.

''Dumbed down RPG systems (this is the big one, for me)''

Maybe they dumbed down mechanics but they improved a whole lot of other things, like the side quest and combat. Having dice rolls doesnt really add value to the game, Pillars of Eternity has a proper RPG system yet it isnt even worth playing. It shows that the stat system doesnt really make or break a RPG. Oblivion also has plenty of unique and interesting quests that dont involve combat.

''Boring rehashed dungeons''

Like the rest of the series.

''Boring plot''

Have to disagree with that. The execution was dull and repetitive, but the plot by itself and the way it was presented was pretty fucking amazing. The intro/tutorial is arguably the best of the series.

''Combat is worse than morrowind's. Simplified the RPG hybridisation''

It is better. It added an extra layer of complexity.

''The RNG combat in Morrowind is tedious as fuck, but at least the number crunching and greater diversity of systems involved is a fun''

Maybe it WAS fun but today it isnt. There is no fun in crunching numbers in that kind of game. If Oblivion had Morrowind's combat the game would have been a total flop.

 

[Squid]

It added an extra layer of complexity

Where? Because now you pressed Mouse 2 for block?

 

[Okagron]

It is better. It added an extra layer of complexity.

What complexity? Mashing a single attack button over and over is not "adding complexity". I swear you come up with some of the worst "arguments" i ever seen on the internet and that's saying a lot.

The intro/tutorial is arguably the best of the series.

Yeah, being forced into a tutorial is so amazing. Oh wait, it isn't. Then again, you're the idiot that defended Fallout 3's intro, so your argument is void by default.

When I was playing Oblivion with my friend I never really noticed the level scaling issues.

Ah, the usual "I didn't noticed it was an issue, therefore it's not one." "argument". Oblivion has probably the absolute worst level scaling. The level scaling in Oblivion makes the world feel fake and artificial, not like a living world. Or are you gonna tell me those Goblin Warlords somehow train behind the scenes just to keep up with you?

If Oblivion had Morrowind's combat the game would have been a total flop.

Yeah, that's why Morrowind sold so well. And probably the main reason why Oblivion sold even better was because of the hype created by Morrowind.

 

[mfkndggrfll]

Well yes the option do block is an extra layer, its thin but its still there. There is also the technical improvements in the engine, like the ragdoll, better graphics and animations. It delivers a better ARPG experience.

Oblivion's intro is more an intro than a tutorial honestly, everything that happens is relevant to the plot. Cant really complain about being forced to start at the beginning.

When you think about it Oblivion is pretty damn close to being the best TES game. Just the fanservice it did with the arena faction is a reason to rank it first. The game integrated what the original TES game was meant to be inside a much bigger game. The thief guild's questline alone is worthy of a Thief game. The Dark Brotherhood's questline could also be its own game. It also is a good walking simulator, and includes a lockpicking simulation minigame, alchemist minigame, dating sim minigame... Its like multiple games into one.

Morronwind fangays can whine all they want but if Oblivion came after Daggerfall everyone would love it.

 

[Anomander Rake]

Mate you can't say that the level scaling in oblivion can't be noticed. I noticed it while I was playing in 2006 and I was a kid!!

The problem is that the level scaling is the reason you can't even enjoy Oblivion - there is no sheer pleasure on exploring because you know already what you are going to find on level 1: the answer is N O T H I N G.

I love playing Oblivion modded but if I could use just one mod I would use one to remove the level scaling. Why would I have pleasure exploring when everything revolves around me?

 

[Alkarl]

When I was playing Oblivion with my friend I never really noticed the level scaling issues. We were too busy rerolling chars with different builds and uglier faces, wandering off into a different direction.

You understand this is the way children approach video games, right? And children don't know shit. "lel, look daddy I gived the lizard guys a bik nose like mommies!"
So you still play video games as if you were five. This explains so much.

 

[Anomander Rake]

When I was playing Oblivion with my friend I never really noticed the level scaling issues. We were too busy rerolling chars with different builds and uglier faces, wandering off into a different direction.

You understand this is the way children approach video games, right? And children don't know shit. "lel, look daddy I gived the lizard guys a bik nose like mommies!"
So you still play video games as if you were five. This explains so much.

But this ain't true because a children would notice it, if only by being hinted by a videogamer dad - why do you have this rusty weapon? After all these hours you've found only this? A kid wouldn't realize the flaw at its core, but surely would become frustrated.

 

[Squid]

like the ragdoll, better graphics and animations. It delivers a better ARPG experience.

So it doesn't make the combat more complex, it just makes it feel more like a sword hit something? Don't change your argument on me. It enhances the action part of the game but it doesn't make any of it more complex.

Just the fanservice it did with the arena faction is a reason to rank it first

Holy shit, no wonder you have those tags and you've been here for like 4 months.

The thief guild's questline alone is worthy of a Thief game

Sometimes it's better to be quiet and learn rather than speak and sound foolish.

Or maybe you're just as much of a troll as Makabb?

 

[Sigourn]

The above criticism definitely has degrees of objectivity involved, e.g there's lots of copy-paste, which is bad. We humans don't like repetition.

This is contradictory considering Oblivion and Skyrim, both very repetitive games, are loved by millions.

It's more along the lines of "humans don't like bad things". I don't mind repetition as long as what I'm doing is enjoyable. The issue with Skyrim's dungeons is that, while they looked nice (compared to how barebones Morrowind's dungeons look), they boiled down to "straight corridor that goes on for ages with a giant chest with leveled loot at the end". It gets old very quick. At least in Morrowind you never knew what you would find in a dungeon. You could find glass or Indoril equipment at the first rooms of a dungeon, even (whereas in Skyrim stuff would ALWAYS be at the bottom).

 

[mfkndggrfll]

like the ragdoll, better graphics and animations. It delivers a better ARPG experience.

So it doesn't make the combat more complex, it just makes it feel more like a sword hit something? Don't change your argument on me. It enhances the action part of the game but it doesn't make any of it more complex.

Just the fanservice it did with the arena faction is a reason to rank it first

Holy shit, no wonder you have those tags and you've been here for like 4 months.

The thief guild's questline alone is worthy of a Thief game

Sometimes it's better to be quiet and learn rather than speak and sound foolish.

Or maybe you're just as much of a troll as Makabb?

The option to block does make it more complex, everything else makes it more engaging. Either way it is better.

Care to elaborate on why you disagree about the arena? The more I think about it, Oblivion's arena is possibly the greatest instance of fan service ever seen in a video game series.

''At least in Morrowind you never knew what you would find in a dungeon.''

You never really cared about what you would find either...rofl.

 

[Okagron]

You never really cared about what you would find either...rofl.

Implying you not caring means other don't. Oh right, you're the retarded dipshit who thinks he's talking for everyone else.

And keep believing Oblivion's combat is better than Morrowind, some day it will be true.

By the way, this fucker didn't know you could do different moves depending on which direction you swipe the mouse in Morrowind. So, pretty much ignore everything he says about Morrowind's combat because i'm willing to bet he actually never played it.

 

[mfkndggrfll]

You never really cared about what you would find either...rofl.

Implying you not caring means other don't. Oh right, you're the retarded dipshit who thinks he's talking for everyone else.

And keep believing Oblivion's combat is better than Morrowind, some day it will be true.

By the way, this fucker didn't know you could do different moves depending on which direction you swipe the mouse in Morrowind. So, pretty much ignore everything he says about Morrowind's combat because i'm willing to bet he actually never played it.

How much would you bet exactly?

By the way you realize that the guy I was replying to used the same wording format by saying that 'you' care about the stuff in game. You cant even keep track of the comments, you just reply shit for the sake of arguing.

At this point you arent even entertaining anymore. Do you realize how dumb you sound by parroting that old shit about morrowind being so great.

 

[Alkarl]

The above criticism definitely has degrees of objectivity involved, e.g there's lots of copy-paste, which is bad. We humans don't like repetition.

This is contradictory considering Oblivion and Skyrim, both very repetitive games, are loved by millions.

It's more along the lines of "humans don't like bad things". I don't mind repetition as long as what I'm doing is enjoyable. The issue with Skyrim's dungeons is that, while they looked nice (compared to how barebones Morrowind's dungeons look), they boiled down to "straight corridor that goes on for ages with a giant chest with leveled loot at the end". It gets old very quick. At least in Morrowind you never knew what you would find in a dungeon. You could find glass or Indoril equipment at the first rooms of a dungeon, even (whereas in Skyrim stuff would ALWAYS be at the bottom).

No, it's certainly repitition that humans dislike. Quality can be subjective, there are good-or at least enjoyable "bad" things.

Care to elaborate on why you disagree about the arena? The more I think about it, Oblivion's arena is possibly the greatest instance of fan service ever seen in a video game.

They retconned the lore of the entire province. Including an arena has nothing to do with fanservice. It's anything but.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

We were too busy rerolling chars with different builds and uglier faces, wandering off into a different direction.

HAHA, too much ADD even to play Oblivion.

 

[mfkndggrfll]

The above criticism definitely has degrees of objectivity involved, e.g there's lots of copy-paste, which is bad. We humans don't like repetition.

This is contradictory considering Oblivion and Skyrim, both very repetitive games, are loved by millions.

It's more along the lines of "humans don't like bad things". I don't mind repetition as long as what I'm doing is enjoyable. The issue with Skyrim's dungeons is that, while they looked nice (compared to how barebones Morrowind's dungeons look), they boiled down to "straight corridor that goes on for ages with a giant chest with leveled loot at the end". It gets old very quick. At least in Morrowind you never knew what you would find in a dungeon. You could find glass or Indoril equipment at the first rooms of a dungeon, even (whereas in Skyrim stuff would ALWAYS be at the bottom).

No, it's certainly repitition that humans dislike. Quality can be subjective, there are good-or at least enjoyable "bad" things.

Care to elaborate on why you disagree about the arena? The more I think about it, Oblivion's arena is possibly the greatest instance of fan service ever seen in a video game.

They retconned the lore of the entire province. Including an arena has nothing to do with fanservice. It's anything but.

How is it not fan service? TES fans know that Arena was meant to be an arena dueling game. Had it succeeded at being a proper arena game the TES sequels would have been completely different. Oblivion achieved the original developers' vision, or at least part of it.

 

[Squid]

It being a fan service doesn't make it #1 out of all the The Elder Scrolls games is my point. That's just silly. Fan servicing can be nice and it can also be bad. And just because you serviced your fans with one duel mode doesn't make this entry the best entry of the series.
As you said,

Just the fanservice it did with the arena faction is a reason to rank it first.

But that's not nearly enough to justify this game as the best in the series.

The option to block does make it more complex, everything else makes it more engaging. Either way it is better.

And sure, the combat FEELS better in Oblivion. It doesn't make it better, especially as a game trying to be an RPG.


EDIT: Grammar.

 

[Alkarl]

How is it not fan service? TES fans know that Arena was meant to be an arena dueling game. Had it succeeded at being a proper arena game the TES sequels would have been completely different. Oblivion achieved the original developers' vision, or at least part of it.

You just answered that question yourself. The original developers intended it to be an arena style game. But that isn't what was delivered. Do you consider The Elder Scrolls that appear in the games to be fanservice? That the imperial city has an arena is of no consequence, and was even blatantly put forth in the first game. Would Solitude being built on a cliff constitute fanservice? "By the cliffs of Solitude..." no, its an expected geographical feature. Cyrodil was supposed to be a warm, eastern jungle type region where rivers conveyed most casual travelers via boats in the style of the gondolas found in Morrowind. That they retconned this, discards any fanservicing they could have accomplished and only proves the developers did not care to meet even the shallowest of fan expectations.

Edit: Furthermore, fanservice in these games usually involves call backs to previous games in the form of related npcs or knowledge of their exploits. The Warp In The West skill book, St. Jiub being referenced, meeting a descendant of a member of the Mehrunes cult in Skyrim, hearing about the Nerevarine traveling, etc. The Arena is lipservice at best, since it barely references an in-joke between a couple developers ~12 years (by 2006) old and has no bearing on any characters or events in previous games. It would be like finding a pile of knee-arrows in TES 8.

 

[Sigourn]

No, it's certainly repitition that humans dislike. Quality can be subjective, there are good-or at least enjoyable "bad" things.

But if we agree that

a. Skyrim and Oblivion are repetitive.
b. Millions love Skyrim and Oblivion.

Then "humans dislike repetition" doesn't have any ground to stand on.

 

[Alkarl]

No, it's certainly repitition that humans dislike. Quality can be subjective, there are good-or at least enjoyable "bad" things.

But if we agree that

a. Skyrim and Oblivion are repetitive.
b. Millions love Skyrim and Oblivion.

Then "humans dislike repetition" doesn't have any ground to stand on.

That's assuming you know precisely how these millions are actually playing the game. You aren't taking into account mods and different play-styles (if you wanna call them that). Not everyone is going to throw themselves at every cave, ruin, and barrow that crosses their vision. Some people even.. larp.

Edit: I'll give you this Sigourn , people are less adverse to repitition if it leads and/or builds to something, or if it is well-paced.

 

[Darth Canoli]

So much hatred here, we don't hate you, Bethest*hum* fans ?

But you need to realize, while you support those games for braindead, the industry goes further and further away from the good stuff, so, in a way, you're responsible.
You need to be a responsible consumer to save the planet, same goes for the video games industry, don't do drugs Bethersturds !

 

[Okagron]

Did this man seriously said the Arena in Oblivion alone is enough to rank Oblivion as the best Elder Scrolls game? Good fucking god, this guy is a fucking idiot.

 

[Ash]

The above criticism definitely has degrees of objectivity involved, e.g there's lots of copy-paste, which is bad. We humans don't like repetition.

This is contradictory considering Oblivion and Skyrim, both very repetitive games, are loved by millions.

It's more along the lines of "humans don't like bad things". I don't mind repetition as long as what I'm doing is enjoyable. The issue with Skyrim's dungeons is that, while they looked nice (compared to how barebones Morrowind's dungeons look), they boiled down to "straight corridor that goes on for ages with a giant chest with leveled loot at the end". It gets old very quick. At least in Morrowind you never knew what you would find in a dungeon. You could find glass or Indoril equipment at the first rooms of a dungeon, even (whereas in Skyrim stuff would ALWAYS be at the bottom).

No, it's certainly repitition that humans dislike. Quality can be subjective, there are good-or at least enjoyable "bad" things.

But if we agree that

a. Skyrim and Oblivion are repetitive.
b. Millions love Skyrim and Oblivion.

Then "humans dislike repetition" doesn't have any ground to stand on.

It does. Skyrim and Oblivion aren't terribly repetitive. They are middling in gameplay complexity, after all. It's just compared to the good stuff (older games, RPGs especially), they are/we know better. That aside, there is definitely inherent repetition regardless, but it's only some aspects. For example, dungeons are repetitive in Skyrim, BUT there is the knowledge of finding that precious dragon rune shit at the end, which is a new thing (fus ro doodlah and all that). It's awful to us because we know games don't have to be that way, but noodles don't know and suffer through the repetition because babie's first RPG, and bathe in their own ignorant filth.

To reiterate: game is repetitive in a number of ways, and this is bad, but the significance of this is disguised to new age gamers by offering general complexity above the norm, especially compared to what they're used to (cinematic popamolers and whatnot).

 

[Sigourn]

Skyrim and Oblivion aren't terribly repetitive.

I suppose it really comes down to what each of us considers to be "repetitive". I mean, yes, Skyrim's dungeons aren't 100% repetitive. And to some people, the fact they are different, undiscovered dungeons, means it's never a repetitive task. For someone who has already finished the game and has seen that most dungeons are copy pasted in their design decisions, then yeah, Skyrim's dungeons are fairly boring.

They do look very pretty, though, something I missed in Morrowind.