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Elder Scrolls Why Morrowind is a bad RPG

Sigourn

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Indeed as Zed said, Morrowind dialogue is far from the fake caricature that some prejudiced players tend to draw.

I'm not prejudiced. And it is also far from a "fake caricature". In fact, if anything, people are prejudiced to think Morrowind boasts excellent NPCs by virtue of them having lots of things to say.

But not only there are tens of npcs with a level of detail in their dialogues similar to Divayth Fyr, but several hundreds of npcs with unique answers even if less numerous than in the most developed ones. There are more npcs with unique dialogue in MW than in Gothic 1+2+3 combined.

The catch, however, is that "unique answers" ranges from entirely unique NPCs when it comes to their dialogue, to NPCs with generic responses minus one unique dialogue. This is completely unlike Gothic, where NPCs are either unique, or they aren't.
Again, you make the same mistakes many other users do: they believe quantity = quality. NPCs in Morrowind may be "handcrafted"; but when it comes to the player, what do they actually see and interact with? NPCs that say copypasted dialogues for the most part. They may look unique ("unique", i.e. reusing the in-game assets shared by any NPC in different combinations, to the point you can replicate any of their looks), they may play unique (the player will barely noticeable in actual play, since these are non-hostile NPCs). But like I said, in practice the player will not notice any of these things.

You can feel Gothic's unique NPCs. You can especially feel New Vegas' unique NPCs, with voice acting being arguably the only thing that makes them not feel unique (especially when done poorly so that many NPCs "talk the same" if you were to close your eyes). Fucking Doc Mitchell is more deep than the entirety of Seyda Neen, which includes quite a few NPCs.

"Ugly" is something very subjective, but if you talking about "graphics" only (3d models, textures, shaders, lights other visual effects, water, etc), Morrowind is the most graphically advanced 3d rpg until some years after its release date.

Like you said, "ugly" is subjective. Graphically advanced or not, something like Fallout looks far better. Hell, Morrowind would be drop dead gorgeous had it been made on the Infinity Engine.

Playing normally, in a pure first or second gameplay, you need tens of hours (30-60 hours) to become a walking god, so the same amount of time to finish most games.

Too bad that by the time you play those 30-60 hours (closer to 30 than 60, actually) you are far from getting finished with the game's content, meaning you are OP for the considerably vast remainder of your playthrough.

Even abusing of some exploits, minmaxing a bit in character creation or trying to maximize bonuses in level ups, if you don't abuse of metagaming or previous knowledge in a tenth play, this remain true.

Unlike the Codex hivemind, I don't min-max in my games. I always play a Dunmer and then choose whatever class sounds nice. And you still get OP quickly.

What is false, specially comparing with games in the same date but even comparing with some recent games. For example sounds underwate: Morrowind has different sounds for use of weapons or magic and you can even hear the raining and thunders sounds with a different sound underwater, wiht isn't implemented at all even in modern games. Or talking about storms they sound very weel for the date, as many other athmospheric effects.

Morrowind's sounds are awful, dude. Again, I must remind you this is 2019, because I have no interest going into this "well it's a 2002 game soooo" discussion since I'm not living in 2002 anymore. Hear the massive footsteps. Hear how, if you turn down the music in the game, the world feels massively dead because the music masks the lack of sounds.
 

Sigourn

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I can't put my finger on it but there's something about Morrowind that really puts me off. NWN1 was released around the same time and once I started to get into user-made modules for it any prospective interest in Morrowind disappeared. I've tried several times to play it but I always get that "I'm not enjoying myself" depression before the first 10 minute mark. Maybe it's those cookie-cutter guards that all resemble actor Tony Lo Bianco with the perpetual grin looking like they're dropping a deuce and enjoying it too much.

Funny that you mention the guards because I'm too instantly turned off by them. But what bothers me about Morrowind is simply how there's so much to do but how you are pretty much doing the same thing the entire time. It doesn't have the writing depth of something like New Vegas, but it doesn't have the gameplay depth of Icewind Dale. As much as I kept tearing my hair off with Icewind Dale, I appreciate a game where you use its mechanics because you need them to win, as opposed to using them for fucking around. If I wanted to fuck around, I would download Skyrim and LARP like there's no tomorrow. It even lets you literally fuck around if you use mods.
 

JarlFrank

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I can't put my finger on it but there's something about Morrowind that really puts me off. NWN1 was released around the same time and once I started to get into user-made modules for it any prospective interest in Morrowind disappeared. I've tried several times to play it but I always get that "I'm not enjoying myself" depression before the first 10 minute mark.

Lol that's exactly what I feel with NWN.
 

Shadenuat

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Unlike the Codex hivemind, I don't min-max in my games. I always play a Dunmer and then choose whatever class sounds nice.
:M
speaking those 50% misses

I can't put my finger on it but there's something about Morrowind that really puts me off. NWN1 was released around the same time and once I started to get into user-made modules for it any prospective interest in Morrowind disappeared. I've tried several times to play it but I always get that "I'm not enjoying myself" depression before the first 10 minute mark.

Lol that's exactly what I feel with NWN.
NWN is that level of ugly bad D&D 3 or 4 edition art is ugly.

But custom made modules are worth it to get used to its strange stick figures of the models and overall lack of art direction. (to be honest some things in it when NWN came out were outstanding graphically wise - like reflective metal armor)

Also partially its looks come from the fact that, well you can custom make a lot of things in it (like painting textures of everything), but by default custom made things are done in a retarded kinda way. You can make armor which is not flamboyant cartoony with purple pants and shit, by literally opening ingame editor and making something reasonable yourself. Same with colors and lightning effects - you can make it less aggravating and darker, use simplier shadows of different colors, etc.

It's all in the hands of the game editor. The vanilla campaign and assets are bad though.

That's with the visuals and overall gameplay anyway, of course there are other things like its strange single character nature which makes little sense. (or rather, it only makes sense in the multiplayer, online DMing part of the game)
 
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Gerrard

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The best way to combine first person action combat and RPG stats is the Gothic way where higher skills actually have an influence on how well your character swings his weapon by making it more fluid and unlocking new attack types.
Or, you could do what JK2&3 did (except there it wasn't based on stats, obviously) fucking decades ago and have enemies actually dodge your attacks, or parry, block, whatever, based on the result of a hidden roll, which could be determined the moment you start your attack and look completely natural. Yet somehow none of the great minds making games figured that out.
 

JarlFrank

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I can't put my finger on it but there's something about Morrowind that really puts me off. NWN1 was released around the same time and once I started to get into user-made modules for it any prospective interest in Morrowind disappeared. I've tried several times to play it but I always get that "I'm not enjoying myself" depression before the first 10 minute mark.

Lol that's exactly what I feel with NWN.
NWN is that level of ugly bad D&D 3 or 4 edition art is ugly.

But custom made modules are worth it to get used to its strange stick figures of the models and overall lack of art direction. (to be honest some things in it when NWN came out were outstanding graphically wise - like reflective metal armor)

Also partially its looks come from the fact that, well you can custom make a lot of things in it (like painting textures of everything), but by default custom made things are done in a retarded kinda way. You can make armor which is not flamboyant cartoony with purple pants and shit, by literally opening ingame editor and making something reasonable yourself. Same with colors and lightning effects - you can make it less aggravating and darker, use simplier shadows of different colors, etc.

It's all in the hands of the game editor. The vanilla campaign and assets are bad though.

That's with the visuals and overall gameplay anyway, of course there are other things like its strange single character nature which makes little sense. (or rather, it only makes sense in the multiplayer, online DMing part of the game)

Yes, the main issue is that the gameplay of NWN is just shit and even the modules with excellent content suffer from it.
Everything is slooooooooooooooooow as fuck, you can't control companions (in a fucking D&D 3.5 game with 3D "isometric" perspective and Baldur's Gate style RTwP lol), combat just isn't any fun at all.
 

Sigourn

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speaking those 50% misses

Considering the Dunmer race adds +10 Destruction, then yeah, speaking about those 50% misses using Destruction magic. :lol: But I suppose the Battlemage, Spellsword and Crusader classes are meant to be shit at Destruction magic... oh no, they have it as their Primary skill.
 
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Shadenuat

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speaking those 50% misses

Considering the Dunmer race adds +10 Destruction, then yeah, speaking about those 50% misses using Destruction magic. :lol: But I suppose the Battlemage, Spellsword and Crusader classes are meant to be shit at Destruction magic... oh no, they have it as their Primary skill.
The Dunmer race have lowest starting Willpower (30ish something?) and no Magicka multiplier whatsoever to even have a good mana pool to cast spells, unless you go Atronach.

It doesn't matter what class you pick, you should be making a custom one, and specializing in something like using your race's highest stats and skills. Then even early game will be piece of cake.
 
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The ones that are locked behind a certain build don't actually require that build at all. We love to mock Skyrim's "you can become the Archmage of Winterhold while knowing how to cast one single spell", but how is Morrowind's "the guild requires you to have certain stats but rarely expects you to cast spells?" any different? In fact, I've taken the time to browse Morrowind's Mages Guild quests: out of 33 quests distributed among the guilds, only ONE absolutely requires you to use magic, either scroll or spell (Soul of an Ash Ghoul), while another two require either spells or having a good sneak skill, with one of these two also being easily solved by picking up a key lying around. That's right: in Morrowind's Mages Guild quests, there are absolutely no quests that absolutely demand you to be a mage, because literally any character can use a spell scroll. The faction requirements are entirely arbitrary.

Yeah but you were trying to prove a point. A regular player would be required to have high magic skills to get those quests and as such he would use them, because why not.
 

DJOGamer PT

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In an RPG, what you see is only a representation of what your character is doing.

By this reasoning Deus Ex is not an RPG. Nor New Vegas, or Gothic...
And they aren't.
At least not pure RPGs.

What is and RPG?

Besides what combat system do think is more challenging, allows for more complexity and diversity of design (and ways to be experienced) by both the player and the dev, and is overall more fun?

It's just about being different really, not better or worse. Sometimes I want an action experience, sometimes I want a stat-driven one. Morrowind and Deus Ex are rare games that are first-person 3D but stat-driven, and they confuse people because they think that perspective mandates action. At the end of the day though, both styles offer something beneficial, and a lot of people like myself enjoy both. Some only prefer one or the other, and they should avoid games that don't offer what they want. Pretty simple really.

But again like I said, when you have just 1 PC action is the best way to make the combat.
And just because it's action oriented doesn't mean stats can't play a big role in it.
 

Open Path

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To me, a faction's quests should be directly related to a faction. In that regard, Morrowind's quests are fine. If there are faction requirements, I expect those to tie in directly into the faction's quests. Else they become generic, and expose faction quests for what they really are: quests where the "faction" element is simply that you are doing these quests for a particular group.

What do you expect or not is not a reason to define Morrowind faction's questing as a bad/fake one. Your description of Morrowind faction questing is distorted. Morrowind quests "faction element" is indeed in a strong way linked with the worldbuilding around these factions or sometimes more personal interests by other faction members. But besides that, Morrowind factions favour certain builds and no others clearly by their faction skill preferences that lock advancement and new quests by player level in favoured skills. So there are not many drastic impediments in quest solving by faction favoured skill checks (with some exceptions) but Morrowind faction design highly penalizes or hinders faction advancement and quest giving by required levels in favoured skills and attributes.

An example to explain how false is your idea that every character build is suitable for every faction: If you decide to play with an argonian witchhunter and join the Fighters Guild, using mostly your favoured skills and not faction's ones to quest solving, you could need to use 10 points in level ups invested in two of your worst attributes and specially level up 85 times on one and 30 times on two more of your less favoured skills outside the faction quests in order to access to new quests and reach the higher rank... It's ridiculous.

This would make sense if it wasn't so easy to level skills in Morrowind in different ways. Ideally you pick a build and stick with it, i.e. I decide to play a fighter and naturally the factions of choice will be Redoran, Fighter's Guild, or Imperial Legion. But no.

No, it's not so easy, specially in opposite builds. A pure fighter or even a mixed stealth/melee character, for example a redguard warrior or rogue, should level up 85 times in one of his miscellaneous magic skills and 30 times in other two magic misc., to reach higher rank in Magues Guild or Telvanni House + level up 10 points in 2 of your worst attributes. So you should basically solve three or four times more quests or freely adventure the world 3/4 more time using these allegedly non preferred skills than you must use the non favoured combat skills to complete one of these magic factions... Other unspeakable solutions to player trying intentionally to break a game try to solve factions quests with other skills than any of the favoured by the faction and that in case that player decide to finish both factions are mandatory, are obssesive, artificial, ultra-abusing, mmo-grinding-like solutions:

-Larping hard: Cast several thousand times some spells of two different schools to the air or try also several thousand times you enchant or alchemy making attempts, failing most times because you start at level 5 in order to artificially level up the favoured skills.

-Abuse of trainers at mental disorder levels: You must pay and train 145 fucking times!! in three of the miscellaneous skills that any of aforementioned magic factions favour. Even in this case, you need to find master level trainers at least in one skill, so even more artificial work (or even worse metagaming) to try intentionally to break game design finish factions using a character with skills not favoured by these factions.


I believe you can join any faction from the start.

If this was the case, and? Why every faction must forbid join mandatorily, instead to limit rank promotions? Why a faction of our world, from the past or in a imaginary world should ban some random guy that would like to help them in low level jobs, to do it? Don't makes more sense to limit promotion by skillls favoured in that faction? But anyway there is an axception in Morrowind, Orc women characters of most classes (15/21) can't even join Imperial Cult, Imperial Legion, Tribunal Temple or Thieves Guild at game start. They must level up Personality to 30 to join these factions.



Because it boils down to dicerolls in a game where the action-part allows you to completely break it. There are no rounds. There are no turns. You attack as fast as you please and then are able to spam potions in your inventory at will. Those are genuine problems with the combat. You asked about New Vegas: I don't think New Vegas has good combat, but at least it is proper action combat in an action-RPG.

Don't get me wrong: you make a lot of good points. Those are all genuine strong points with Morrowind's combat. But we cannot ignore the fact the combat is based on dicerolls, in a game with a first person perspective, and it is about as unengaging as it could hope to be.

I think so many people tend to call dicerrolls to every mechanic that it's not action directly based, but dicerrolls imply rng as simulation of dicerrolling, a mechanic that many rpg includes (most blobbers, infinity games, etc). In Morrowind, actions performance depends on stats and only stats, without random numbers. So hit chance, damage level, cast success, barter and prices reduction, etc, depends on your, your tools and/or your opponent stats.

I think the most common alleged problem with Morrowind combat is a fake problem: Succes rate in melee or magic, basically. Since start, you will success in most your attacks or cast attempts in your favoured skills if you do it with high fatigue, and this information is abundantly presented in character creation, attributes/skills sheets info and dialogue. Also I don't need an specific animation that show player the ways in which he fail. I think Daggerfall/Morrowind way is the most rpg way (as other user already mention) to abord an action combat with no turns or pauses. ALL depends on stats. And you don't know the formula but you have hints about how combat works everywhere.


I disagree, many Morrowind quests don't have multiple solutions. A lot of times it boils down to "do the quest or don't do it".

Most quests can be solved by the use of different sets of skills, so in diverse ways, that was one of your original complaints.

----------------------------

Maybe you simply like more Gothic or New Vegas style or story-guided rpgs in general, but this don't make Morrowind better or worse rpg or experience. There are a lot of incline in Morrowind and as I said in my first message here, and after very recent interviews deeper confirmation: Most Morrowind developers, with few exceptions, want the opposite in games of what Morrowind offers, so this game is some kind of miracle, an accident product of the inheritance of another era in crpg and general gaming and the total dominance (but in tricky ways) of Kirkbride in design.
 
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Or, you could do what JK2&3 did (except there it wasn't based on stats, obviously) fucking decades ago and have enemies actually dodge your attacks, or parry, block, whatever, based on the result of a hidden roll, which could be determined the moment you start your attack and look completely natural. Yet somehow none of the great minds making games figured that out.

Isn't NWN like that? To me, the only issue Morrowind's combat has is that there are no diverse animations for misses. In my opinion it should have been RTWP with combat rounds like NWN in order to not only showcase the intricate magic schools and artifacts, scrolls, etc., the game offers, but also to implement the illusion of what your "miss" actually means. Rather than just swinging at air you could have enemies move about, the weapon be mishandled by low level characters, have an enemy block or a hit graze and so on.
 

Invictus

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Ah Sigourn veo que tus pelotudeces estan enfocadas desde el principio a echarle mierda a Morrowind... despues de jugarlo por como 300 hrs :D
Ay si seran burros los argentinos caray
Ya me sonaba familiar que descalificaras a todos si no estaban descuerdo con tus boludeces, como todo guachin que para sacar sus complejos se quiere poner como mejor y mas inteligente
Mejor andarte directo a la concha de la lora y desarolla un poco mas de autocrítica pelotudo chupapijas
 

JarlFrank

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In my opinion it should have been RTWP with combat rounds like NWN

I know I'm replying to a year-old post by a now deleted user but...

GOD NO

NO

FUCK NO

ABSOLUTELY NO FUCKING WAY

There is no WORSE FUCKING SYSTEM than NWN's abhorrent RTwP with combat rounds. If your game has rounds, MAKE IT FUCKING TURN BASED LIKE IT'S SUPPOSED TO. ROUNDS HAVE NO FUCKING PLACE IN A REAL TIME SYSTEM.
FUCK ROUND-BASED RTWP
FUCK ROUND-BASED RTWP
FUCK ROUND-BASED RTWP
FUCK ROUND-BASED RTWP
FUCK ROUND-BASED RTWP

FUCK IT FUCK IT FUCK IT AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
 

Sigourn

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Ah Sigourn veo que tus pelotudeces estan enfocadas desde el principio a echarle mierda a Morrowind... despues de jugarlo por como 300 hrs :D
Ay si seran burros los argentinos caray
Ya me sonaba familiar que descalificaras a todos si no estaban descuerdo con tus boludeces, como todo guachin que para sacar sus complejos se quiere poner como mejor y mas inteligente
Mejor andarte directo a la concha de la lora y desarolla un poco mas de autocrítica pelotudo chupapijas

Me sacaste una sonrisa con tu dialecto pseudo-argentino.

720.jpeg
 

DavidBVal

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There is no WORSE FUCKING SYSTEM than NWN's abhorrent RTwP with combat rounds.

Now that's absolutely true but... *could* it theoretically be implemented right?

NWN was based on D&D, which simply can't be made real-time without messing up the whole system. Initiative is the best example on why D&D needs turns to work.

But maybe a system in which RTWP system works with turns "behind the scenes" could be decent. Assuming you like RTWP at all, that is; I admit I haven't enjoyed a RTWP game since the BG2 days.
 

JarlFrank

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
But maybe a system in which RTWP system works with turns "behind the scenes" could be decent. Assuming you like RTWP at all, that is; I admit I haven't enjoyed a RTWP game since the BG2 days.

Nah, at least not for me. RTwP shouldn't use turns behind the scenes, it should run in real time. 7.62 High Calibre is a fun RTwP game, different guns have different firing speeds, aimed shots take longer than potshots, etc. It wouldn't be half as fun with actions tied to background turns.

I also vastly prefer action point systems in turn based over one action per turn systems, and having actions take different amounts of time rather than being tied to background turns is to RTwP what action points are to 1APT systems.
 

TemplarGR

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Morrowind is a bad RPG because it is a bad video game. The issues with Morrowind are not in ruleset design or the theme and worldbuilding of the game, those are quite good. The issues are with the typical video game issues. The game had a bad game engine, was full of bugs, controls like shit, it has you walk everywhere like a moron getting harassed by these cliff racers.... And the gameplay just isn't enjoyable with all those misses in first person. And the dialogue system is TRASH, it does not feel natural.

All these things got fixed with Skyrim. To be honest, after Oblivion, i never thought they had it in them, but Fallout 3 showed the world they could design a GOTY and Skyrim blew it out of the park.
 

Rat King

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Morrowind is a bad RPG because it is a bad video game. The issues with Morrowind are not in ruleset design or the theme and worldbuilding of the game, those are quite good. The issues are with the typical video game issues. The game had a bad game engine, was full of bugs, controls like shit, it has you walk everywhere like a moron getting harassed by these cliff racers.... And the gameplay just isn't enjoyable with all those misses in first person. And the dialogue system is TRASH, it does not feel natural.

All these things got fixed with Skyrim. To be honest, after Oblivion, i never thought they had it in them, but Fallout 3 showed the world they could design a GOTY and Skyrim blew it out of the park.
 

Allwynd

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Morrowind is a bad RPG because it is a bad video game. The issues with Morrowind are not in ruleset design or the theme and worldbuilding of the game, those are quite good. The issues are with the typical video game issues. The game had a bad game engine, was full of bugs, controls like shit, it has you walk everywhere like a moron getting harassed by these cliff racers.... And the gameplay just isn't enjoyable with all those misses in first person. And the dialogue system is TRASH, it does not feel natural.

All these things got fixed with Skyrim. To be honest, after Oblivion, i never thought they had it in them, but Fallout 3 showed the world they could design a GOTY and Skyrim blew it out of the park.
I agree that the engine was outdated, but in 2002 the game still looked good, I remember The Fellowship of The Ring released the same year and it did look better, I think it even had cloth simulation, but one key difference is that TFoTR was not an open world, but instead it had small instanced areas with lots of invisible walls. I bet if they tried to create an open world, they had to tone down the graphics if they wanted people to be able to run it on their computers in 2002.

As for the controls of Morrowind, I don't see what was so "shit" about them. It's pretty fine, even for 2020 the game controls fine and you can rebind pretty much any control to whatever fits you, I only change Jump to Spacebar and Interact to E, the rest of the controls are perfectly fine by default.

Misses may feel annoying, but that's a remnant of TBS games and it may feel more natural in those kinds of games, but even how Morrowind is, it's still OK, there are even mods that make every attack an accurate hit.

Bugs are also fixable with mods.
How is the dialogue trash? If they had to voice every line and replicate it for every race and gender, the game download size would probably be 5+ GB.

I don't know how much you have played Morrowind, but there is a fast travel system, but it's more realistic than the one in Skyrim where you can fast travel from anywhere. Your argument makes me believe you're most active in mobile games with auto play systems.
Also your complete ignoring of Morrowind mods that literally improve the game in every aspect makes me thing you're just trying really hard to find something to hate about the game.


The game is not as bad you say it is, it's pretty good, but it does have a lot of negative qualities. Fallout 3 may be good, haven't played it as I'm not fan or Post-Apocalyptic games and Skyrim is just a dumbed-down Morrowind where the game is reduced by 90% in every aspect and made playable for 5-year olds. Many skills don't exist, many gear slots don't exist, you don't have Spellmaking, combat may be more fluid at first, but eventually devolves into the same boring one like Morrowind, just in a different way.

Skywind will recreate Morrowind in the Skyrim engine and then I'd be curious what will you complain about. Depending on how they can bypass the limitations of Skyrim to make it as versatile as Morrowind, the game will be the same, it will only look nicer, combat will be action type instead of dice roll/ability check and dialogues will be voiced. Traveling will again be limited to Morrowind standards, so I'm gonna be curious to see what ridiculous things you will find to say about how this is somehow bad.
 

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