Will PoE be shit?

[Seari]

You don't get strength increasing items at the start of the game, so it's not meaningless. They are also limited and you've got 6 characters, 4 of which probably need strength.

You can get 21 wisdom at the end of bg1, and even more by the end of ToB.

http://playithardcore.com/pihwiki/index.php/Baldur's_Gate:_Races_and_Stats#Wisdom
While 1st and 2nd level spell slots are kind of useless, the rest are not, esp. the 5th bonus spell.

Really your argument should be that the spell selection sucks for 1st and 2nd level spells(which it does), and not wisdom as a stat.

 

[Shevek]

Stats where there to tell you who your character was, not how well he could fight (tho some did have an impact on that), you have different stats for that, stop being so god damn retarded. They did their job, not more or less.

Lol. Who your character was not how they fight, eh? Haha

It was never meaningless, you had 6 slots and no relevant magical item in the game could be found 6 times.

There were multiple str boosting items.

Con still gives hitpoints past 20 to warrior classes, what the fuck are you even talking about? a 16 in con already statistically puts you above 90% of the worlds human population, id say thats high.

Lore behind average stats are meaningless. While high con does indeed give more hp (for warriors) it requires 2 or 3 points to go up 1 step.

I can attest to that, you are just flat out wrong.

Ok

Are you saying every game that becomes easier when the player knows what comes next and how to deal with it is bad? sounds to me like you are full of shit.

No idea what your point is.

 

[Lhynn]

Lol. Who your character was not how they fight, eh? Haha

Hardly, if you think thats what a character is in D&D you really missed the point.

There were multiple str boosting items.

There were also other items that could take their place, also you had to both sacrifice time and resources to get them, and they had different degrees of effectiveness. Are you seriously attacking BG2 itemization? PoE itemization has to be the most banal shit boring one ive seen in an RPG in years, and you attack the game that did it best?

Lore behind average stats are meaningless. While high con does indeed give more hp (for warriors) it requires 2 or 3 points to go up 1 step.

Stats that tell you who your character is are more important than stats that give combat bonuses in a RPG enviroment, ideally you want them to represent both equally well, but you can always separate combat stats from basic stats, by implying than knowledge, technique and experience are far more important than what you were born with, which at a high enough level they should be anyway. That said you cant possibly be defending sawyers take on attributes, giving close to meaningless % based bonuses to one or two very general, very abstracted thing. His implementation was so poor that it was almost universally rejected.

No idea what your point is.

My point is that bringing up meta knowledge is retarded. Yes, games do get easier when you know them upside down.

 

[Shevek]

What are talking about? What other value, outside of combat, did stats have? BG2 didnt have very many stat checks (few and far between). Your post is total and complete nonsense.

As far as the metagame thing, you need to reread past posts because you are a little lost.

 

[Lhynn]

BG2 didnt have very many stat checks (few and far between).

This is true, but im talking about the character system and how its intended to be used. BG2 could and should have used more checks.
Intelligence gave you lore points to auto identify stuff, it also dictated the max lvl of spell your mage could cast, str allowed you to bash doors/containers, charisma reduced prices when high, also had an impact on npcs reactions, tho i havent experimented much with it, always had it high because i like playing charismatic characters, dexterity affected thieving abilities.

As far as the metagame thing, you need to reread past posts because you are a little lost.

Are you saying the game is good because noobs dont know any better? What?

Im saying that you bringing up magical items that are powerful and make the game easier if you go specifically after those doesnt say anything about the quality of the game, so what if there are better paths than others, who has ever given a shit about that? and i mean really, how does it make the game any less enjoyable?

 

[Shevek]

Man, you are just getting lost in your own rhetoric. My point is the IE stat system sucks. In part due to how stats were implemented and in part due to how items set stats to a given value. You can go round and round with your silliness but the points stand.

 

[Lhynn]

Man, you are just getting lost in your own rhetoric. My point is the IE stat system sucks. In part due to how stats were implemented and in part due to how items set stats to a given value. You can go round and round with your silliness but the points stand.

My point is that IE system works. In part because its fun, in part because its pretty interesting. You can go criticizing BG2 because it apparently isnt up to your standards, but any argument you bring forth is doomed to fall apart because you mentioned that you actually enjoy PoE bullshit system.

 

[Athelas]

My point is that IE system works.

Dual- and multi-classing works (which is where the actual character building is), the attribute system doesn't by any objective measure. You could remove the attributes and the BG games would probably be better for it. There are simply no interesting choices to be made with the attributes, everything is dictated by your class - which is arguably a good thing in a class-based game.

 

[Lhynn]

Dual- and multi-classing works (which is where the actual character building is), the attribute system doesn't by any objective measure. You could remove the attributes and the BG games would probably be better for it.

Never have i tought any rpg would be better without attributes, every time i play a game in which every character of a given class is the fucking same i feel like puking. Removing attributes from BG would make it dumber, but it would not, in any way make it better.

 

[Athelas]

Never have i tought any rpg would be better without attributes,

Deus Ex says hi.

every time i play a game in which every character of a given class is the fucking same i feel like puking.

See above - you can differentiate them by dual- or multi-classing. Also, weapon proficiencies and spell selection and specialization. Attributes don't add anything - you can't make a fighter who sacrifices attack power for speed, or a mage whose spells are less prone to being interrupted. PoE allows you to make these character concepts and more. Conversely, you could criticize PoE for not having multi-classing.

Removing attributes from BG would make it dumber, but it would not, in any way make it better.

It wouldn't make much of a difference, honestly. Unless you like to play challenges where you purposefully gimp your characters.

 

[Shevek]

The lack of M/C is the biggest weakness with PoE's character development system (I dont find the lack of dual classing to be a bad thing though - was never of fan of how it worked). I am hoping we will be able to mod in our own classes so I can mod in some M/C proxies. Still, PoE makes up for that somewhat with varied talent and class ability selection. On the whole, I find PoE's character development much more satisfying.

 

[Lhynn]

Deus Ex says hi.

Oh yes, thats an rpg, i keep forgetting its on our top 50 after all. And that surely makes it one, just like jagged alliance 2 and system shock, and i guess now we should include prototype and call of duty multiplayer.

See above - you can differentiate them by dual- or multi-classing. Also, weapon proficiencies and spell selection and specialization.

That only tells me what they know.

Attributes don't add anything - you can't make a fighter who sacrifices attack power for speed,

I guess initiative and dodge AC arent modified by dexterity, and damage isnt modified by str. and you dont have a limited poll of points to split between them. True, if you min max is possible to avoid this, but low charisma has its consequences, and to a lesser extent low wisdom and intelligence do tell you something about your character and its role in life.

or a mage whose spells are less prone to being interrupted.

Dude, if you are trying to make something as delicate as altering the reality with precise gestures a exact measure of components a dagger to the gut should interrupt your fucking spellcasting, i dont give 2 shits if it was only 1 point of damage. Concentration checks were a retarded addition to 3rd edition.

PoE allows you to make these character concepts and more. Conversely, you could criticize PoE for not having multi-classing.

They only tell me what my fucker knows, not who he is, that is what attributes are for, and PoE attributes feel more like a cop-out.

It wouldn't make much of a difference, honestly. Unless you like to play challenges where you purposefully gimp your characters.

First, who gives a shit about a character character not being as good as another character ffs, its a fucking single player rpg, as long as its enough to beat the game its just fine. Second, it would make plenty of difference, from how you perceive your character to what items he gets, who does the talking, the amount of times he gets hit, how much punishment he can take, if he can identify items without the use of magic, when he will be able to afford X item or the start of one of the main quests, if his stealth checks succeed or dont, etc.
Not gonna say it will wildy change your playstyle, but its not a trivial matter, especially if you are playing for the first time.

 

[Athelas]

That only tells me what they know.

I don't know what this means.

I guess initiative and dodge AC arent modified by dexterity, and damage isnt modified by str.

Most of your AC and damage comes from armor and weapons - and your class determined which you could use, and your proficiency and accuracy in the latter. Again, attributes were superfluous in importance compared to class - which is perfectly fine in a class-based RPG.

and you dont have a limited poll of points to split between them.

Not really. Fighters for example only needed STR, DEX and CON and you could easily max those three. Wizards didn't need INT (its proper effect was never implemented in the BG games), they needed only CON and DEX. Etc.

True, if you min max is possible to avoid this, but low charisma has its consequences, and to a lesser extent low wisdom and intelligence do tell you something about your character and its role in life.

This is called LARPING. There were no stat checks in the BG games (or maybe like a handful). The stats didn't describe your character. Another thing that PoE improves upon.

Dude, if you are trying to make something as delicate as altering the reality with precise gestures a exact measure of components a dagger to the gut should interrupt your fucking spellcasting, i dont give 2 shits if it was only 1 point of damage. Concentration checks were a retarded addition to 3rd edition.

If you think a game where a trained fighter can miss an immobile enemy at point blank range 3 times in a row is a realistic simulation of combat, you might want to rethink your perception of reality.

They only tell me what my fucker knows, not who he is, that is what attributes are for, and PoE attributes feel more like a cop-out.

How so? I'll grant you the Might stat, but the other stats have effects that are very much 'simulationist', at least going by the standards of the IE games.

First, who gives a shit about a character character not being as good as another character ffs, its a fucking single player rpg, as long as its enough to beat the game its just fine.

The point is that there was no interesting character building with attributes in the BG games (the interesting character-building was in dual- and multi-classing). The only choice with attributes was 'would you like a slightly shittier character or not?'

 

[Lhynn]

I don't know what this means.

Means thats the primary reason for attributes to exist, flavor, thats what makes them more than "stats".

Most of your AC and damage comes from armor and weapons - and your class determined which you could use. Again, attributes were superfluous in importance compared to class - which is perfectly fine in a class-based RPG.

At high level, yeah sure.

Not really. Fighters for example only needed STR, DEX and CON and you could easily max those three. Wizards didn't need INT (its proper effect was never implemented in the BG games), they needed only CON and DEX. Etc.

They did if you wanted to learn spells, or i guess you could play on easier difficulties or savescum.

This is called LARPING. There were no stat checks in the BG games. The stats didn't describe your character. Another thing that PoE improves upon.

Its a perfectly good reason for stats to exist regardless.

If you think a game where a trained fighter can miss an immobile enemy at point blank range 3 times in a row is a realistic simulation of combat, you might want to rethink your perception of reality.

Abstraction muh friend, in a serious encounter anything can happen, you can trip over your weapon and end up hurting yourself. the fact that the system allows for this scenario to happen is a plus, not a minus. Maybe the veteran fighter is not at fault, maybe his armor broke at the worst time, maybe an old wound re-opened.

How so? I'll grant you the Might stat, but the other stats have effects that are very much 'simulationist', at least going by the standards of the IE games.

simulationist being intellect increasing the area of effect of a swing? or perception magically decreasing the rank at which my gun is effective? or wait, dexterity making magic effects take place faster? etc.

The point is that there was no interesting character building with attributes in the BG games (the interesting character-building lied in dual- and multi-classing). The only choice with attributes was 'would you like a slightly shittier character or not?'

The potential was there m8, plus it definitely made for a different game in BG1. try a fighter with 18/00 str and then try one with 14.

 

[ZagorTeNej]

Deus Ex says hi.

A FPS/RPG hybrid, a very different subset of the genre.

See above - you can differentiate them by dual- or multi-classing. Also, weapon proficiencies and spell selection and specialization. Attributes don't add anything - you can't make a fighter who sacrifices attack power for speed, or a mage whose spells are less prone to being interrupted. PoE allows you to make these character concepts and more. Conversely, you could criticize PoE for not having multi-classing.

PoE also sacrifices some character concepts (a powerful mage has to be Arnie) and some are utterly ridiculous (a super smart barbarian with monkey arms). Not everyone is in love with the (extremely) gamist approach to video game design you know.

I also think PoE will suffer from people finding out one optimal stat combination that works for every class, making stat distribution even more of an afterthought.

It wouldn't make much of a difference, honestly. Unless you like to play challenges where you purposefully gimp your characters.

Even if they're just flavour, don't underestimate the importance of it. If you strip the game of all those little things you deem meaningless, the whole experience might be worse for it.

Besides, you mention dual-classing, stats play an important role in that.

 

[Roguey]

Josh is convinced that the majority of people who play RPGs aren't power gamers, so I believe the most likely outcome is that most people will choose their stats based on which menu checks they want to pass and they'll be grateful those stat arrays will be viable regardless of class. At least that's how I'm playing.

Incidentally most of my IWD 1 characters were 18 str 18 dex 16/18 con 18/3 wis/int depending on class 3 cha

 

[Athelas]

A FPS/RPG hybrid, a very different subset of the genre.

Depending on your view of the genre, it's more of a role-playing game than Baldur's Gate. It certainly has a better character system.

PoE also sacrifices some character concepts (a powerful mage has to be Arnie) and some are utterly ridiculous (a super smart barbarian with monkey arms). Not everyone is in love with the (extremely) gamist approach to video game design you know.

Make no mistake, I like having stats that are clearly grounded in the game world. I just can't see why somebody would prefer the attributes in the BG games which were neither very simulationist nor a good part of the character system. Also, a high Might mage has an inherent accuracy bonus with spells, meaning their physical attacks will comparatively have more misses and grazes, so not really Arnie-material actually.

I also think PoE will suffer from people finding out one optimal stat combination that works for every class, making stat distribution even more of an afterthought.

Perhaps, but this would require actual effort and experimentation. If the character creation screen in BG had contained truthful descriptions of stats, finding out the optimal build for every class would have taken a matter of seconds.

Besides, you mention dual-classing, stats play an important role in that.

I don't count meeting the requirements for (multiple) classes as 'character building with attributes'.

Means thats the primary reason for attributes to exist, flavor, thats what makes them more than "stats".

There's no need for stats to have 'flavor' if they have tangible effect on dialogue and environmental interaction. As noted, the BG games didn't do this.

At high level, yeah sure.

Fighters can invest several levels into weapon proficiencies and wear heavy armor at level 1.

They did if you wanted to learn spells, or i guess you could play on easier difficulties or savescum.

The point was that you could learn even the most powerful spells even with the class minimum in INT. And stats having random effects that can permanently gimp your characters is even worse than stats having no effects.

Abstraction muh friend, in a serious encounter anything can happen, you can trip over your weapon and end up hurting yourself. the fact that the system allows for this scenario to happen is a plus, not a minus. Maybe the veteran fighter is not at fault, maybe his armor broke at the worst time, maybe an old wound re-opened.

You're doing that LARPING thing again.

simulationist being intellect increasing the area of effect of a swing? or perception magically decreasing the rank at which my gun is effective? or wait, dexterity making magic effects take place faster? etc.

Not sure what you're talking about. Dexterity makes you act faster, being perceptive increases your chances of interrupting your foes. Being more intelligent makes you use your abilities more intelligently (okay, that one is a bit more abstract).

The potential was there m8, plus it definitely made for a different game in BG1. try a fighter with 18/00 str and then try one with 14.

This is exactly what I said - the choice is between making a good character and a shitty character. Character building should be multi-layered and filled with interesting choices and trade-offs.

 

[ZagorTeNej]

Depending on your view of the genre, it's more of a role-playing game than Baldur's Gate. It certainly has a better character system.

As I said, I view them as games belonging to a different subset of the genre. I'll compare (and draw conclusions on what works and what doesn't) Deus Ex with Bloodlines or SS, not with IE games.

Also, while I love Deus Ex, I can tear it's char system down easily if I analyze it with the same degree of scrutiny you guys do with BG (for example I could say it boils down to maxing rifle skill and taking trained at computers and that's about it).

Make no mistake, I like having stats that are clearly grounded in the game world. I just can't see why somebody would prefer the attributes in the BG games which were neither very simulationist nor a good part of the character system.

Everyone has different levels of tolerance for derp, (for me) stats in BG certainly are simulationist compared to PoE, let's say they reach the acceptable level of logic.

Perhaps, but this would require actual effort and experimentation. If the character creation screen in BG had contained truthful descriptions of stats, finding out the optimal build for every class would have taken a matter of seconds.

True, can't argue with that.

I don't count meeting the requirements for (multiple) classes as 'character building with attributes'.

Then what is it? If I want to eventually dual my beefy fighter to a mage I have to have high INT, that's char building/planning.

There's no need for stats to have 'flavor' if they have tangible effect on dialogue and environmental interaction. As noted, the BG games didn't do this.

BG actually had some stat checks (though extremely rarely, a few CHA checks in BG and one WIS check in BG2 that I recall) but sure, it would have been much better if stats played a part in dialogue and environment interaction. I'm just saying that you shouldn't underestimate flavour (and/or roleplaying/larping, whatever you wanna call it), attributes are still one additional way of defining your character. Even if the attribute system could have been implented a lot better, the game would have still been poorer without it IMO.

 

[Lhynn]

There's no need for stats to have 'flavor' if they have tangible effect on dialogue and environmental interaction. As noted, the BG games didn't do this.

But they did. Saying it wasnt so its a lie.

Fighters can invest several levels into weapon proficiencies and wear heavy armor at level 1.

They can, wearing a full plate armor and an excellent quality sword doesnt quite bridge the gap between high stats and low stats, and even if it did, just how much more efficient do you think is a character with x6 18s and one with average scores of 13.

The point was that you could learn even the most powerful spells even with the class minimum in INT.

Oh yeah, lets bring up a bug that was never patched.

And stats having random effects that can permanently gimp your characters is even worse than stats having no effects.

Not if the stats are allowing you to overcome said effects.

You're doing that LARPING thing again.

Thats what an rpg is suposed to inspire athelas, a good one anyway. If you fail to grasp that, then i fear we just have to agree to disagree.

Not sure what you're talking about. Dexterity makes you act faster, being perceptive increases your chances of interrupting your foes. Being more intelligent makes you use your abilities more intelligently (okay, that one is a bit more abstract).

Im talking about the other effects, dexterity accelerates your spellcasting, intelligence makes you reach farther, perception gives more range to your pistol (seriously, wah?). Not aware if they have changed that lately, maybe they have, i sincerely hope they have.

This is exactly what I said - the choice is between making a good character and a shitty character. Character building should be multi-layered and filled with interesting choices and trade-offs.

How is it a choice if you dont know the fucking system? But its true, as long as its good and offers a wide variety and room for experimentation its fine. AD&D is very limited in those aspects, and obviously the cRPG games that came from it are even more limited, and yet it does its job, it supports several gameplay style, it does so in a way that is coherent with the world, instead of submitting to balance and sacrificing the very thing that makes fantasy setting interesting in the process.
Im not saying BGII did it the best, i know the limitations of the system, im saying it works, and its doing it better than PoE.

 

[Shannow]

Lets get some things clear:
I despise AD&D. It's through and through gamist and few of it's rules make any sense. 3rd ed was better in that it at least had a basic rule system, that everything was built around. It's still extremely gamist.
(Funny thing is, whenever I then bring up better systems, eg. TDE, the usual Sawyerist-reaction is: "That's too complicated!". And it's really not like we haven't had this discussion a few times before.)

But we were talking about this:

Ya, thats pretty funny. So, BG2 doesnt betray RPG-dom with an abysmmal stat system where most of its stats are either meaningless (wis, int, cha) or meaningless within certain ranges or with certain items? Not to mention the race gated classes (probably a good thing or everyone would be a gnome for shorty saving throws, max ac dex bonus and exceptional str), atrocious class imbalances, itemization so poor that entire builds and CLASSES are designed around the use a single item. PoE is doing alot of things better with regards to the character system. Sure, the system is in flux but OE is approaching this well. It just has to balance a couple minor things with regards to racial bonuses (so all races feel as good as Hearth Orlans) and find a set of stat bonuses that feel good (the ones in the Sawyer stream look pretty good).

That has all been debunked. Shevek (then joined by Athelas) just tried to in part repeat the nonsense and in part to wriggle away and switch to a more general assault on AD&D. While I might agree with parts of that assault, that wasn't the issue we were discussing.

And as far as PE goes, I think we've also had this discussion a few times. Personally I'll wait till I've played through PE at least once before I judge. (And I'd need to play through far more times for the criticism to be fair compared to IE games.) But monkey arms barbarian and muscle wizard lead me to expect that I'll have at least as much to criticise with it as with D&D.
Despite all its faults, I still enjoy D&D games. Hopefully it'll be the same for PE. We'll see *shrug*

Knowing the codex you guys will require a few more posts to get it out of your systems. Have fun.

 

[Shevek]

Lol, no man, nothing has been debunked.

 

[Athelas]

As I said, I view them as games belonging to a different subset of the genre. I'll compare (and draw conclusions on what works and what doesn't) Deus Ex with Bloodlines or SS, not with IE games.

Also, while I love Deus Ex, I can tear it's char system down easily if I analyze it with the same degree of scrutiny you guys do with BG (for example I could say it boils down to maxing rifle skill and taking trained at computers and that's about it).

The great thing about Deus Ex is that the character system allows for significantly different ways of experiencing the game. Not investing in the computer skill for instance would make the player more reliant on having to search for passwords and the like, which can certainly be more enjoyable for some people.

Then what is it? If I want to eventually dual my beefy fighter to a mage I have to have high INT, that's char building/planning.

It's planning, not building. You're just meeting the requirements for the dual-class. You can't use the INT to gain access to fighter feats or something like that. And as noted, you arguably don't need INT for a mage anyway, so the dual-class requirement is rather artificial.

But they did. Saying it wasnt so its a lie.

They didn't, unless you count a handful of stat checks, which I mentioned already. A character with 3 int/wis/cha had the same dialogue experience as one with those stats maxed.

They can, wearing a full plate armor and an excellent quality sword doesnt quite bridge the gap between high stats and low stats, and even if it did, just how much more efficient do you think is a character with x6 18s and one with average scores of 13.

The AC boost from armor is bigger than what you can get from DEX. Weapon proficiences (and reaching certain levels) increases your amount of attacks per round, which eventually doubles and triples your damage output.

Oh yeah, lets bring up a bug that was never patched.

It's not a bug, it's a feature.

Thats what an rpg is suposed to inspire athelas, a good one anyway. If you fail to grasp that, then i fear we just have to agree to disagree.

LARPING is not role-playing.

Im talking about the other effects, dexterity accelerates your spellcasting, intelligence makes you reach farther, perception gives more range to your pistol (seriously, wah?). Not aware if they have changed that lately, maybe they have, i sincerely hope they have.

Dexterity speeding up spellcasting makes perfect sense if you have to gesture to cast (D&D 3rd. ed assumes this as well). Perception letting you see and shoot farther, I'm not sure what is supposed to be wrong with that? Though this was changed anyway in the interrupt bonus I mentioned. Anyway, this isn't any more contrived than say, DEX increasing your ranged accuracy for some reason.

How is it a choice if you dont know the fucking system?

Character creation that relies on obfuscation isn't interesting, it just wastes your time.

it supports several gameplay style,

Not through attributes, it does through other aspects of the character system (namely class) and gear selection.

it does so in a way that is coherent with the world

Yeah, my drooling retard of a character having the same dialogue options as a character of superhuman wits is really coherent.

Im not saying BGII did it the best, i know the limitations of the system, im saying it works, and its doing it better than PoE.

You have yet to explain how. So far the only example you have given of a character concept supported through attributes is 'shitty fighter' and 'fighter that is less shit'.

 

[imweasel]

My point is the IE stat system sucks. In part due to how stats were implemented and in part due to how items set stats to a given value.

When you pick up e.g. Gauntlets of Dexterity and see how they improve the stats of your character then you say to yourself

"OH MY GAWD, IT'Z HEAVEN!!"



That is a great yet not overpowered item that slightly improved your stats, and you could really "feel" this slight improvement during combat. The stat system harmonizes very well with gameplay, so they must have been doing something right. IE-AD&D (and even pre Bethestard SPECIAL for that matter) are very fun to play, probably more so than most other RPG systems I have encountered.

 

[Shevek]

People who defend all these flaws in the IE stat system have no credibility when criticizing PoE.

 

[Sensuki]

For a lot of the people here, the things you see as flaws are not flaws. It depends on your stance on gamism vs simulationism. D&D had many problems, flavor however, was not one of them.

There are some things that PE handles better than any D&D edition, but for the most part there's at least one edition of D&D that does something better than PE IMO.

I think 4E's 'Healing Surge' is better than PE's Health system, for instance.