Yet another Piracy: Good or Bad? discussion

[Sigourn]

Illegal, for once.
Taking away from someone without their permission, second. By "taking away" I mean "refusing to give them the money they are entitled to because of the product you are consuming".
And third, "piracy actually helps sales!" means shit if the developers in question don't want you to play their games without giving them money. Respect the developer's wishes.

Moreover, all that shit about people pirating The Outer Worlds because of Epic and shielding themselves with "I don't agree with Epic's practices" is no different than me stealing bottled water because I believe clean water should be a right and not a commodity.

I also think the "try it before buying it" is bullshit, as you don't ask to have your money returned because you didn't like a movie. You pay to play, not to enjoy.

 

[Mustawd]

Illegal, for once.
Taking away from someone without their permission, second. By "taking away" I mean "refusing to give them the money they are entitled to because of the product you are consuming".
And third, "piracy actually helps sales!" means shit if the developers in question don't want you to play their games without giving them money. Respect the developer's wishes.

Moreover, all that shit about people pirating The Outer Worlds because of Epic and shielding themselves with "I don't agree with Epic's practices" is no different than me stealing bottled water because I believe clean water should be a right and not a commodity.

I also think the "try it before buying it" is bullshit, as you don't ask to have your money returned because you didn't like a movie. You pay to play, not to enjoy.

I’ve always held that piracy is illegal and equal to stealing. I also think it hurts sales.

I just don’t care, and it doesn’t usually bother me unless it’s a very small indie dev.

It’s not a justification. I’m not claiming any moral high ground here. I can easily afford to buy stuff if it was convenient to do so. Pirating is just what I choose to do cuz I can and I feel like it. Simple as that.

EDIT: Again, I haven’t pirated a game since 2014 because Steam and GoG make it wag too convenient and cheap. But I pirate the hell out of movies and shows.

 

[Sigourn]

I’ve always held that piracy is illegal and equal to stealing. I also think it hurts sales.

I just don’t care, and it doesn’t usually bother me unless it’s a very small indie dev.

It’s not a justification. I’m not claiming any moral high ground here. I can easily afford to buy stuff if it was convenient to do so. Pirating is just what I choose to do cuz I can and I feel like it. Simple as that.

EDIT: Again, I haven’t pirated a game since 2014 because Steam and GoG make it wag too convenient and cheap. But I pirate the hell out of movies and shows.

I'm in the same camp as you are. The only difference is that I literally cannot buy games because I don't have a job and thus no money. I've always held the idea that as soon as I get a job, I'll start saving to buy all the things I've pirated in the past. Luckily most of it is available on GOG, or can't be legally obtained anymore. My post was more of a criticism towards people who do have the income but use mental gymnastics to justify pirating games, such as "it was shit so I won't pay for it". Myself, I will most definitely buy Skyrim and Fallout 3 first, since those were my first 2 PC RPGs and I really enjoyed them at the time, even if I think they are dogshit now.

Fallout and Fallout 2, though? My money should go to its creators, not Bethesda.

 

[cosmicray]

As for its detractors, do you also refuse to download music or listen to it on youtube?

Depends on genres of course, but Apple/Google Music got you covered most of the time. It's also more convenient.

 

[Damned Registrations]

Respect the developer's wishes.

So you're going to stop using that pirated avatar?

 

[Sigourn]

Respect the developer's wishes.

So you're going to stop using that pirated avatar?

1. I took a screenshot of the game and cleaned it up myself.
2. Nowhere did I say I abide by those laws.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

I’ve always held that piracy is illegal and equal to stealing. I also think it hurts sales.

interference with copyright does not easily equate with theft, conversion, or fraud. The Copyright Act even employs a separate term of art to define one who misappropriates a copyright: '[...] an infringer of the copyright.'

— SCOTUS majority opinion, Dowling v. United States

Copyright infringement(AKA 'piracy') for non-commercial purposes is not a crime in USA, it is at best a civil offense depending on the circumstances.

 

[Damned Registrations]

Respect the developer's wishes.

So you're going to stop using that pirated avatar?

1. I took a screenshot of the game and cleaned it up myself.
2. Nowhere did I say I abide by those laws.

1. That's like, equal to stealing a painting from a museum, man.
2. You literally said to respect their wishes. Which is stupid. Fuck their wishes, it's the work that deserves respect (or doesn't)

 

[Sigourn]

1. That's like, equal to stealing a painting from a museum, man.

How?

You literally said to respect their wishes. Which is stupid. Fuck their wishes, it's the work that deserves respect (or doesn't)

I'm talking about the people who justify their piracy. I don't justify my own because it cannot be justified.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Moreover, all that shit about people pirating The Outer Worlds because of Epic and shielding themselves with "I don't agree with Epic's practices" is no different than me stealing bottled water because I believe clean water should be a right and not a commodity.

If you steal a bottle of water, the vendor has one less bottle of water to sell.
If you pirate a game you had no intention of buying, the vendor ???

 

[Sigourn]

If you pirate a game you had no intention of buying, the vendor ???

Retarded argument. We don't know if you were going to buy it because you have piracy at your reach. If piracy didn't exist, I imagine a lot of those "I wasn't going to buy it anyway" would turn to "day 1 purchase".

 

[Damned Registrations]

How?

Presumably in the same way piracy is equal to stealing. So not at all.

There's no need to justify piracy to begin with. It's harmless. It's like sneering at people because they're 'justifying' hearing some news by word of mouth instead of paying the original source.

 

[Sigourn]

Presumably in the same way piracy is equal to stealing. So not at all.

I didn't say piracy = stealing. But to imply pirating something has no effect is ridiculous: you gain a product you should have paid for.

There's no need to justify piracy to begin with. It's harmless.

Who are you to judge whether piracy is harmless or not? If the devs don't want you to, you shouldn't pirate their games. Again, if you care about being a good person.

 

[Sigourn]

Damned Registrations Hell, your museum argument is entirely moronic because the point of art is that a replica (a photo doesn't even qualify as one, but let's ignore that for a second) doesn't have the same value as the original. People won't stop visiting the Louvre because pictures of the Mona Lisa are on the Internet, they visit it because they want to see the ACTUAL Mona Lisa as painted by da Vinci. Whereas a game you pirate is exactly the same as one bought on a store, as far as you care. It's also why a genuine copy of a game is worth more than simply pirating it off the Internet: collectors care about the physical good which, in a way, is "one of a kind" (because of limited production).

 

[spectre]

So this thing again, aight, let's go through the talking points.

My post was more of a criticism towards people who do have the income but use mental gymnastics to justify pirating games, such as "it was shit so I won't pay for it".

Fallout and Fallout 2, though? My money should go to its creators, not Bethesda.

Funny you accuse others of "mental gymnastics" then pull something similar.
Mind you, I'm not bashing you here, because I believe it is a perfectly valid point and a natural reflex of anybody with half a brain who wants to make informed purchases - in the age of oppressive practices by companies screwing their customers,
I think it's an important tool to get back at them a little bit. And by screwing their customers I am specifically referring to the (relatively) recent trend of not being the owner of shit you buy, dodgy DRM software which affects performance,
shoddy marketing tactics, selling unfinished games at full price, being forced to install random shitware on your system or even staying online.
Hey, I get to decide what I install on my system. Be it Gabon profiling me, Epic store collecting my data, or a bitcoin miner for the friendly neighborhood cracker group.

I'm not having any moral qualms here. We're not talking about essential commodities but entertainment - for me it's natural that I decide when do I pay for it and how much do I pay for it (or IF I pay for it at all).
It's all glorified street musicians as far as I am concerned. I get the concept - you don't get paid for your shit, you won't play me more shit (this is actually a genuine anti-piracy argument I kept hearing).
What's getting it wrong is when you expect payment by virtue of just "being there, doing stuff". Yep, sometimes your work is shit and you don't deserve money for it.

One can call bullshit on "Try before you buy", but it's exactly what you can do with Steam nowadays and nobody is crying bloody murder, or "baaaw, muh lost sales", despite the fact that the outcome is pretty much the same.
Cutting the middleman is not a bad thing to do.
You can say: but it's legal when Gabon let's you do it, and there are rules. To which I reply - it is also not illegal if I download for personal use without uploading (which can be difficult with P2P, but that's the pirate's problem).
For those trying to pull the moral high ground, let's not forget The actual criminal act which can be equalled to "taking what isn't yours" is when you distribute copyrighted material yourself, thereby posing as the owner.

 

[Damned Registrations]

It's patently absurd that without piracy everyone would start working 5 jobs to pay for all that shit. We already know that the biggest pirates also spend more on the same kind of thing. The only 'harm' is to devs that benefit from buyer's remorse. Fuck those guys. Hurting them doesn't make you a bad person.

 

[Sigourn]

Funny you accuse others of "mental gymnastics" then pull something similar.

True, but I'm not about to give my money to a company that doesn't deserve it because they didn't make those games. I'm supporting absolutely no one but Bethesda, who didn't make those games and certainly aren't making good RPGs. I still believe that what I'm doing is wrong in that case (only because the law says so), but I don't see the logic behind profitting from games the only people interested in are those who most likely don't like your RPGs.

It's all glorified street musicians as far as I am concerned.

You donate to street musicians, though, and they are okay with you listening but not paying.

What's getting it wrong is when you expect payment by virtue of just "being there, doing stuff".

Except developers don't leave their games on the street for people to try out and hope they donate to them if they like their games.

Yep, sometimes your work is shit and you don't deserve money for it.

They do when customers play their games for hours upon hours upon hours. Steam, as far as I recall (I could be mistaken) only let you play games for two hours before the refund policy was over. And no: there are people out there who claim "the game is shit" while having 20 hours on it. If the game was so shit that you were able to spend 20 hours on it, then I'd say the developer is entitled to your money, because it provides entertainment, and I personally don't endure shit through 20 hours. It's not my idea of entertainment.

I agree with the refund policy based on one simple reason: it allows you to see if a game runs properly on your PC. Not everyone has the beefiest of PCs to buy a game knowing it will run properly 99% of the times. Only because of that I'm okay with Steam refunds. The whole "I want to see if the game is good, else I'll refund" shouldn't be a thing IMO.

 

[unfairlight]

If piracy didn't exist, I imagine a lot of those "I wasn't going to buy it anyway" would turn to "day 1 purchase".

If what you say were the case, Denuvo games wouldn't be pirated even if they had their pirate releases delayed up to a year.

One can call bullshit on "Try before you buy", but it's exactly what you can do with Steam nowadays

Steam will deny refunds if you use refunds too often, it is not intended to be used as "try before you buy."

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Steam will deny refunds if you use refunds too often, it is not intended to be used as "try before you buy."

I've seen this repeated a lot but man I refund a lot of stuff. I've gotten to the point where I just click the 'other' option and don't even list a reason.

 

[Sigourn]

If what you say were the case, Denuvo games wouldn't be pirated even if they had their pirate releases delayed up to a year.

Why? You know the game will eventually be available, as opposed to "it never will". Posting in a soccer forum, I know of many users who cave in and say "fuck it, I'm buying it" because they can't hold on that long (mostly because when it comes to soccer games, not one, but two games are released every year and having to wait 10 months before a crack is available is too much for some, particularly those with the money to spend).

 

[Raghar]

I have these simple rules.
Is it disabled with less than average income, if any income at all?
Is it long term unemployed?
Is it retired pensioner?
If these are pirating, that's great for them.

Frankly, even if I was not doing uncommercial games, there is simple equation. If people don't want to pay willingly, you simply can't live purely from game sales. And if you have hard core of people who are wiling to spend money, for example because they wanna new game and they think most of your games are quality one, you have somehow guaranteed salary, as long as theirs numbers are sufficiently high. If developer can't ensure this WITHOUT more than token copy protection, developer should find other source of financing his games/live.

I dislike people who are going to game development to become rich. When game market was small, they sobered quickly, either left game development, or worked for low salaries. Nowadays there is much larger market, and developers mishaps are more easily survivable. Laws that increase protection of software only become more stringent, and it actually hurts software development.

For future developer, it's practically impossible to get proper out of school education, and learn proper artistic feeling. As a consequence, a lot of games have basically console, or cell phone interface.

 

[spectre]

It's all glorified street musicians as far as I am concerned.

You donate to street musicians, though, and they are okay with you listening but not paying.

And that's fine if you care for their eedy beedy feelings. I don't.

What's getting it wrong is when you expect payment by virtue of just "being there, doing stuff".

Except developers don't leave their games on the street for people to try out and hope they donate to them if they like their games.

See above. I have little regard for anybody's hopes and expectations unless they have the means to enforce them. So far, they don't.
And that is a good thing, because neither the entertainers nor the middlemen should be left entirely to their own devices when it comes
to charging, because it invites really awful shit from the point of view of the customer.
Also, with a proper tracker and search engine, this shit is literally lying on the street for those who give a damn.

Yep, sometimes your work is shit and you don't deserve money for it.

They do when customers play their games for hours upon hours upon hours. Steam, as far as I recall (I could be mistaken) only let you play games for two hours before the refund policy was over. And no: there are people out there who claim "the game is shit" while having 20 hours on it. If the game was so shit that you were able to spend 20 hours on it, then I'd say the developer is entitled to your money, because it provides entertainment, and I personally don't endure shit through 20 hours. It's not my idea of entertainment.

Possible. Though that's for any bloke to decide. Is 20 hours a lot? Who is to say. Depends on the game and depends on the genre.
I tend to follow a similar reasoning - I can pirate shit once, but if I want to play it again, I will take steps to buy it. Or if in the middle of my demo, I get this feeling "yeah, this shit is actually good".
And I do all of it because I can. If I couldn't, there are other hobbies to pursue.

I agree with the refund policy based on one simple reason: it allows you to see if a game runs properly on your PC. Not everyone has the beefiest of PCs to buy a game knowing it will run properly 99% of the times. Only because of that I'm okay with Steam refunds. The whole "I want to see if the game is good, else I'll refund" shouldn't be a thing IMO.

And that's your opinion. Good for you. Fortunately, it actually is a thing.
So how about this: what if the game only has 4 hours of proper content? Or the other half of the game is an unfinished mess? Or if it's a glorified beta version? All these cases are not unfathomable, and I could easily provide examples of each.
Does the customer not have the right to refund under such circumstances? Fuck them and Caveat Emptor? Well if you believe that's all right, I believe you are sheep and deserve to be shorn.
Sure, the "magic number" for steam is 2 hours, but that's just as arbitrary as 10 hours or 10 minutes for that matter.

 

[Sigourn]

And that's fine if you care for their eedy beedy feelings. I don't.

Then what's the point of this discussion? The truth is all piracy is wrong. There are people who desperately try to justify it using the most nonsensical arguments, and those of us who recognize what we are doing is wrong but do it anyway.

 

[spectre]

Then what's the point of this discussion? The truth is all piracy is wrong. There are people who desperately try to justify it using the most nonsensical arguments, and those of us who recognize what we are doing is wrong but do it anyway.

So, a discussion it is then. Here's your claim, right there in bold.

1. Piracy allows people to "try before they buy".
2. Piracy allows people to dodge some of the crap enforced by the publisher (and it often has nothing to do with the software itself).
3. Piracy allows disenfranchised people to stay in the loop, culturally speaking.

You may not think much about any of these points, but there are people out there to whom these can be important.

 

[Damned Registrations]

You need a reason to declare it wrong. Law is obviously bullshit. You gave 'respect their wishes' but that's bullshit too. Everyone has wishes and most are stupid and selfish.