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You guys MUST play The Elder Scrolls: Arena

Wyrmlord

Arcane
Joined
Feb 3, 2008
Messages
28,886
Passwall is the coolest spell in any game and the biggest travesty isn't the loss of procedurally generated content and character depth in future iterations of the series, but passwall. Man, Arena was Red Faction 7 years before Red Faction.
One of the interesting things about Passwall is that it does not work on walls of rooms that lead to the final objective.

This gives an excellent hint that you are now very close to where you are supposed to be, and now you are supposed to find the entrance to that room. The feeling similar to that felt by an archaeologist who deeps dig underground and finally comes across a hard object that leads to the place that he seeks.
 

Kahlis

Cipher
Joined
Jun 23, 2012
Messages
408
Arena did accomplish a fair bit with its tile-based maps. Moats and pitfalls alone are two things you never see in dungeons anymore. Frankly my biggest disappointment with magic in later TES games is definitely how there aren't any spells that truly manipulate the environment, the stuff you'd see in top-down isometric games like entanglement spells, oil slicks, and raising walls. When staves were revealed in the Skyrim trailer, I suggested that as a compromise between MW's blunt weapons and OB's "rocket launcher" staves, maybe instead of casting spells you would instead use them as a means to "channel" spells you cast through them: applying additional effects or intensifying the potency of the original spell. There's no real "connectivity" between the game mechanics and what you shoot out of your character's hands anymore.

Passwall is the coolest spell in any game and the biggest travesty isn't the loss of procedurally generated content and character depth in future iterations of the series, but passwall. Man, Arena was Red Faction 7 years before Red Faction.
Well Daggerfall didn't have Passwall but maybe that's how the developers justified the players being able to levitate out into the void. Just set a timer equal to your character's current magicka (or run it through a formula for even more absurdity) and then let your character plunge to their doom when it runs out. :smug:
 

abnaxus

Arcane
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Fiernes
In Morrowind during a Mages guild quest you can read a scroll that mentions how mage researchers in a Dwemer ruin regret having lost the Passwall spell some decades before.
 

DraQ

Arcane
Joined
Oct 24, 2007
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Chrząszczyżewoszyce, powiat Łękołody
The worst thing is that Skyrim would really be much better if you just slapped Morrowind spell system on top of its casting mechanics.
Levitation? Make it work like invisibility (everything breaks the spell) or make it master level (2 hands only) concentration spell (keep burning magicka to stay afloat), add some invisible walls around cities.

Waterwalk? I honestly don't get why it isn't in. Teleportation spells? Sure - especially of aim&teleport variety. Freely combine effects with casting methods and with each other? OMNOMNOMNOM! (Seriously, why not, for example, make paralysis runes or runes that revive nearby corpses in addition to elemental damage traps?).

Also, they *could* have made elemental spells have tangible impact on the environment. Why not make fire spells spread damaging flames across any flammable materials? Why not make ice spells create temporary ice floes to trap enemies in water or to cross the water easily? Why not make lightning based spells deal extra damage to anyone in water (including the caster)?

Passwall could also be done in a way if accounted for by dungeon design - creating an opaque when intersecting matter, empty blob around the player allowing him to phase through walls. Spell breaking while still in wall would collapse the blob resulting in instakill.

Same with enchant system. It's not that hard to have "cast from weapon" anim that could be used with staves that would also work as melee weapons.

Wielding system is nice and an improvement, but why not copy other stuff that worked from DF and MW.
 

Kahlis

Cipher
Joined
Jun 23, 2012
Messages
408
If anything, I had thought the dragon shouts would be an ideal system for re-implementing these utilitarian spells, especially given how virtually everybody needed them in some capacity in Morrowind and Todd's the kind of guy who would rather hand them to all the players instead of forcing fighters to rely on scrolls/enchanted items for such spells anyway (you know, his definition of diverse multiclassing options stop at "fighter-mage", "fighter-thief" and "mage-thief").

Recall and water walking in particular seemed very dragon shout-y to me. Of course, I was also the one hoping that the shouts would function like Greater Powers and only be usable every so often. When I came to the realization that they recharged so quickly that you could basically use them on every other wolf you encounter, I cried a little inside at the wasted potential.

In Morrowind during a Mages guild quest you can read a scroll that mentions how mage researchers in a Dwemer ruin regret having lost the Passwall spell some decades before.
I'd never heard that one before, actually. Morrowind as always continues to impress.
 

Luzur

Good Sir
Joined
Feb 12, 2009
Messages
41,387
Location
Swedish Empire
The worst thing is that Skyrim would really be much better if you just slapped Morrowind spell system on top of its casting mechanics.
Levitation? Make it work like invisibility (everything breaks the spell) or make it master level (2 hands only) concentration spell (keep burning magicka to stay afloat), add some invisible walls around cities.

Waterwalk? I honestly don't get why it isn't in. Teleportation spells? Sure - especially of aim&teleport variety. Freely combine effects with casting methods and with each other? OMNOMNOMNOM! (Seriously, why not, for example, make paralysis runes or runes that revive nearby corpses in addition to elemental damage traps?).

Also, they *could* have made elemental spells have tangible impact on the environment. Why not make fire spells spread damaging flames across any flammable materials? Why not make ice spells create temporary ice floes to trap enemies in water or to cross the water easily? Why not make lightning based spells deal extra damage to anyone in water (including the caster)?

Passwall could also be done in a way if accounted for by dungeon design - creating an opaque when intersecting matter, empty blob around the player allowing him to phase through walls. Spell breaking while still in wall would collapse the blob resulting in instakill.

Same with enchant system. It's not that hard to have "cast from weapon" anim that could be used with staves that would also work as melee weapons.

Wielding system is nice and an improvement, but why not copy other stuff that worked from DF and MW.

well add in the magic/battle system from Dark Messiah in that mix too, insta-incline RPG?
 

Kahlis

Cipher
Joined
Jun 23, 2012
Messages
408
With or without kicking? If it means I can RP a monk who kicks people so hard that they explode a la Baldur's Gate, then sure.
 

DraQ

Arcane
Joined
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Messages
32,828
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Chrząszczyżewoszyce, powiat Łękołody
If anything, I had thought the dragon shouts would be an ideal system for re-implementing these utilitarian spells, especially given how virtually everybody needed them in some capacity in Morrowind and Todd's the kind of guy who would rather hand them to all the players instead of forcing fighters to rely on scrolls/enchanted items for such spells anyway (you know, his definition of diverse multiclassing options stop at "fighter-mage", "fighter-thief" and "mage-thief").

Recall and water walking in particular seemed very dragon shout-y to me. Of course, I was also the one hoping that the shouts would function like Greater Powers and only be usable every so often. When I came to the realization that they recharged so quickly that you could basically use them on every other wolf you encounter, I cried a little inside at the wasted potential.

Dragon shouts are a bit of a botched mechanics due to cooldowns.
Couldn't they run on a resource, for example stamina or even HP? If that would be difficult to balance, how about making it percentage rather than fixed cost, or percentage modified by level?

Also, perk tree and/or integration into speechcraft.

In Morrowind during a Mages guild quest you can read a scroll that mentions how mage researchers in a Dwemer ruin regret having lost the Passwall spell some decades before.
I'd never heard that one before, actually. Morrowind as always continues to impress.
I can conceive of way of implementing passwall in Skyrim mechanics - concentration spell allowing you to project a bubble of sort around you (visual effect) that would be opaque and glowy while inside of obstacles (to obscure unseemly out-of-the world graphics) and allow you to walk through stuff. If you stop casting or run out of magicka while inside the wall, you die.
 

Luzur

Good Sir
Joined
Feb 12, 2009
Messages
41,387
Location
Swedish Empire
In Morrowind during a Mages guild quest you can read a scroll that mentions how mage researchers in a Dwemer ruin regret having lost the Passwall spell some decades before.
I'd never heard that one before, actually. Morrowind as always continues to impress.
I can conceive of way of implementing passwall in Skyrim mechanics - concentration spell allowing you to project a bubble of sort around you (visual effect) that would be opaque and glowy while inside of obstacles (to obscure unseemly out-of-the world graphics) and allow you to walk through stuff. If you stop casting or run out of magicka while inside the wall, you die.

but then you be able to pass alot of the linear dungeons, think of all the hard work the devs did for you to see all those corridors.
 

Kahlis

Cipher
Joined
Jun 23, 2012
Messages
408
Can't miss out on all those visceral motion capture Draugr awaken scripts.
 

DraQ

Arcane
Joined
Oct 24, 2007
Messages
32,828
Location
Chrząszczyżewoszyce, powiat Łękołody
In Morrowind during a Mages guild quest you can read a scroll that mentions how mage researchers in a Dwemer ruin regret having lost the Passwall spell some decades before.
I'd never heard that one before, actually. Morrowind as always continues to impress.
I can conceive of way of implementing passwall in Skyrim mechanics - concentration spell allowing you to project a bubble of sort around you (visual effect) that would be opaque and glowy while inside of obstacles (to obscure unseemly out-of-the world graphics) and allow you to walk through stuff. If you stop casting or run out of magicka while inside the wall, you die.

but then you be able to pass alot of the linear dungeons, think of all the hard work the devs did for you to see all those corridors.
If it was a master level spell, it wouldn't be available to players not already bored with linear corridors stuffed with eyecandy.
Same with levitation.
 

JarlFrank

I like Thief THIS much
Patron
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Messages
33,051
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KA.DINGIR.RA.KI
Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Awakening draugar became boring the moment you notice that the ones that awaken use a different model/texture from those that are just containers.
 

Luzur

Good Sir
Joined
Feb 12, 2009
Messages
41,387
Location
Swedish Empire
Awakening draugar became boring the moment you notice that the ones that awaken use a different model/texture from those that are just containers.

thanks to that it was easier spotting the ones that would get up from the ones that wouldnt after a while.

saved me alot of boring combat when i could just one-hit them in their crypts with magic arrows.
 

JarlFrank

I like Thief THIS much
Patron
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KA.DINGIR.RA.KI
Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
True. I'd just sneak up on them and give them a melee critical, and bam they're dead. Still, it added a predictable and therefore boring element to the dungeons.
 

Wyrmlord

Arcane
Joined
Feb 3, 2008
Messages
28,886
the unbalanced races are actually fun.
Yeah, I am also impressed by how badly unbalanced Arena is and how some of the races and classes are there solely for playing severely underpowered characters.

A level 30 Redguard Assassin will do up to a maximum damage of 111 points on each hit thanks to his nonstop critical hits with an Ebony Daikatana.

A level 30 Nordic Barbarian will do just a maximum 27 points of damage on each hit with the same weapon.

In this game, you can take armor class up to -70, but it's completely pointless when you will still get hit regularly enough at such high AC and when Improved Invisibility that mages have makes any AC completely pointless.
 

SCO

Arcane
In My Safe Space
Joined
Feb 3, 2009
Messages
16,320
Shadorwun: Hong Kong
I don't understand why morrowind doesn't have passwall. I mean, there's not a lot of sophisticated scripting to break. And lockpicking is already a utter irrelevance.

Just do a vector, teleport the player to the first open space after a solid one, jiggle him a bit if it's not immediately possible to fit the player, or just fizzle if it's not possible at all, for range or space. Seems like something that openmw could implement easily (maybe even mwextender).

edit: aha, it didn't work like that - it destroyed the walls. Ok, i can understand why it's not possible in morrowind.
 

Mastermind

Cognito Elite Material
Patron
Bethestard
Joined
Apr 15, 2010
Messages
21,144
Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Arena levels were 2d grid based, so passwall is very simple to implement without breaking anything. They probably figured it wasn't worth the trouble.
 

oldmanpaco

Master of Siestas
Joined
Nov 8, 2008
Messages
13,609
Location
Winter
Arena was the only game I hesitated to buy because the box was so blatantly sexist.
Elder_Scrolls_Arena_Cover.jpg


Oh to be young and worry what people thought of you.

anyway I won the game as a Battlemage and used passwall all the time.
 

madrigal

Augur
Joined
Oct 23, 2012
Messages
249
Arena levels were 2d grid based, so passwall is very simple to implement without breaking anything. They probably figured it wasn't worth the trouble.

It made the quest items much easier to find and in some cases the riddles could be bypassed as if you used passwall completely around the room you could sometimes find half walls that could be jumped over.
 

Wyrmlord

Arcane
Joined
Feb 3, 2008
Messages
28,886
Arena was the only game I hesitated to buy because the box was so blatantly sexist.
Elder_Scrolls_Arena_Cover.jpg


Oh to be young and worry what people thought of you.

anyway I won the game as a Battlemage and used passwall all the time.
As a matter of fact:

The racy packaging further contributed to distributor concerns for the game,[6] leading to an initial distribution of under 10,000 units — a smaller number, recalls Peterson, than the initial sales for his Terminator: 2029 add-on. Nonetheless, sales continued, month after month, based upon good word-of-mouth.

Racy packaging nearly prevented the series from existence!
 

DraQ

Arcane
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Oct 24, 2007
Messages
32,828
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Chrząszczyżewoszyce, powiat Łękołody
I don't understand why morrowind doesn't have passwall. I mean, there's not a lot of sophisticated scripting to break. And lockpicking is already a utter irrelevance.

Just do a vector, teleport the player to the first open space after a solid one, jiggle him a bit if it's not immediately possible to fit the player, or just fizzle if it's not possible at all, for range or space. Seems like something that openmw could implement easily (maybe even mwextender).

edit: aha, it didn't work like that - it destroyed the walls. Ok, i can understand why it's not possible in morrowind.
Still, your implementation would work perfectly well and it's better than just dropping the spell altogether.

Also, I would love to see some line-of-sight teleportation in TES.
 
Joined
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Glass Fields, Ruins of Old Iran
Levitation already serves that "get to that place out of reach" purpose, same with Hiking. And Unlock is the "spell to get through locked doors", you don't really need another spell that does the same thing (except you phase through the door instead of magically unlocking it). I could see SCO's Passwall (that sounds like a D&D spell) being useful as a legit way of noclipping, though.
 

abnaxus

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Dec 31, 2010
Messages
10,849
Location
Fiernes
the unbalanced races are actually fun.
Yeah, I am also impressed by how badly unbalanced Arena is and how some of the races and classes are there solely for playing severely underpowered characters.

A level 30 Redguard Assassin will do up to a maximum damage of 111 points on each hit thanks to his nonstop critical hits with an Ebony Daikatana.

A level 30 Nordic Barbarian will do just a maximum 27 points of damage on each hit with the same weapon.

In this game, you can take armor class up to -70, but it's completely pointless when you will still get hit regularly enough at such high AC and when Improved Invisibility that mages have makes any AC completely pointless.
There's no point playing either Arena or Daggerfall as a non-spellcasting class, because finishing the game without magic is impossible. You could technically get by by farming Daedric artifacts and various magical tokens that replicate spells, but by doing this you might just as well have saved time and efford and picked a spellcasting class in the beginning.
 

eric__s

ass hater
Developer
Joined
Jun 13, 2011
Messages
2,301
In Arena, rangers get +1 damage every level, Redguards get +1 damage every 3 levels and Dark Elves get +1 damage every 4 levels. At higher levels, around 15 or 20, rangers have the highest damage output and kill most enemies in one hit. I'm sure there are other non-casting classes that get similar bonuses too. It is very easy to play the game as a non-casting class.

Levitation already serves that "get to that place out of reach" purpose, same with Hiking. And Unlock is the "spell to get through locked doors", you don't really need another spell that does the same thing (except you phase through the door instead of magically unlocking it). I could see SCO's Passwall (that sounds like a D&D spell) being useful as a legit way of noclipping, though.
It's not about the utility, it's that it was a fun and cool spell to mess around with. Passwall made Arena Minecraft 15 years before Minecraft existed. There is just something really fun about digging holes in walls; it's part of the reason why people love Dungeon Keeper and Dwarf Fortress.
 

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