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Your disrespectful attitude towards Cain, Boyarsky, Avellone has to stop

Bester

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These great names that I just dropped, they were once young and they wanted to change the world of RPGs. And oh boy did they succeed. In this universe, if you're the best at something for just a couple of minutes, you've done a fantastic job and you can be proud of yourself. If you're the best for almost a decade, you're a Mike Tyson, Roy Jones Jr, Lebron James, just to name a few. You're a legend. Tim, Leonard and Chris, they are these legends.

That happened. Let that sink in. They were the greatest of their time from mid 90s to mid 00s, for over a decade.

But we're human beings, and as we grow older, it's biology 101 that we don't get better at throwing kicks and punches, our mind doesn't get sharper, we don't start breaking new records. Professional athletes retire at age 35, and that's too old for some of them. I wish some my favorite fighters retired way earlier than they did, but they just kept hoping "just one more, just let me go out on a win". And they kept getting beaten up, getting knocked out, and it was unnecessary. Sometimes Dana White would retire a fighter, he'd say "you're done, that's it... great run, buddy, but it's over" and it's always been a relief for me.

Ok, great. But this doesn't happen with creative professions, they're never forced to retire. And I'm happy for them. But that doesn't mean they're the same men that they once were some fifteen years ago. You, as a fan, need realize, understand and respect the fact that they're past their prime. If this had been a two man sport, they would've been done 15 years ago.

When it's over for athletes, a lot of them get completely dazed and lost. They've been fighting their whole life, they don't know anything else. Suddenly they have an empty schedule, the phone doesn't ring, the fame and attention are all gone. It's tough. The successful ones transition into training, the unsuccessful ones start doing drugs and ruin their lives, whereas they were straight as an arrow their entire career. It's a sad reality.

Good news is that with gamedevs, it doesn't have to end like that. They can keep themselves busy with their projects, they can keep interacting with their fans, they can keep doing what they know and love. But you shouldn't try to ruin their post-careers with your shitty comments that come from your unrealistic expectations.

Yes, they don't make Fallout 1 anymore. Can you not be an asshole about it?

Can't you focus on the good times? Be happy that it happened. Don't be angry that it's over.

They made games that defined your childhood. You're welcome.
 

S.torch

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First of all, what you say isn't true. Great writers like Tolstoy or Tolkien keep producing great work even in their very advanced life. Art is not sports.

That said, why you include Avellone in this list? The Outer Worlds exist, but Avellone has not been given any lead role in a very long time. There is no reason to think that his skills had fallen.
 
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Roguey

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Cain and Boyarsky were tooting their horns pretty hard before TOW's release and it looks like the game press is doing more than enough fellating to make up for the disappointment here.
 

Trashos

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I love all 3 of them, even if they are dirty commies. However, Tim threw his fans under the bus with that presentation some years ago ("all that stuff you loved and supported us for was a mistake" would be a quick translation), and he still owes them an apology.

Other than that, they are 3 of the greatest, I love them, and want them here. But there is no love without hate, and they have to accept that there is going to be criticism too.
 

Junmarko

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Can you not be an asshole about it? Can't you focus on the good times? Be happy that it happened. Don't be angry that it's over.

vatnik.png

What is it with Communists always getting high on Jesus?

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shihonage

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Fallout 2 (1998): become a pornstar, kill every NPCs and even children.

Outer Worlds (2019): the single-player RPG won't let you name yourself "Hitler", "prostitute" or "retard" because it will offend the computer. Also, you can't be a dick to any of the LGBT+ characters in the game, nor can you kill them. And white men are bad, as well as capitalism.

I admire Tim Cain for writing the framework/engine for the best RPG ever made. But he did smear himself with Outer Worlds. He's no longer cool.
 

AdolfSatan

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Age is not an excuse. Look at Vault Dweller. He's a grumpy grognard and after delivering AoD he's setting to surpass himself with the next title. What they grew is complacent, not old.

Also, there's no way that the modders who delivered Fallout Nevada (a better game than pretty much every successor to FO1) and are now working on Sonora are young either.
 

Quillon

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Where is the disrespectful attitude? I don't see people here insulting their persons unlike apparently fair game Sawyer who is codex' whipping boi at this point :P
 

Tigranes

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I agree. I think it's a pity that we don't get Avellone-lead-written games anymore, and I'm glad that Cainarsky got to join forces to make another RPG again - even if, sadly, it seems like a game I'm not even going to bother trying for a while. That doesn't take anything off their great achievements in the past. Genius is not, after all, made by a guy who has a golden idea and just needs 'ambition' to make it happen - it needs other people, constraints, new technology, etc. to all come together at that point in time.

I think cumming yourself thinking TOW was going to be the Greatest because of Cainarsky was irrational to begin with, but maybe if you got hyped that way you are now disappointed. It was always going to be a tough act. Who knows, TOW's selling well, right? And maybe they'll get to try at least one more time.
 

Commissar Draco

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Fallout 2 (1998): become a pornstar, kill every NPCs and even children.

Outer Worlds (2019): the single-player RPG won't let you name yourself "Hitler", "prostitute" or "retard" because it will offend the computer. Also, you can't be a dick to any of the LGBT+ characters in the game, nor can you kill them. And white men are bad, as well as capitalism.

I admire Tim Cain for writing the framework/engine for the best RPG ever made. But he did smear himself with Outer Worlds. He's no longer cool.

Is the Boyarski the one who came with retro-futurist art style of Outer Words? It was the only cool feature in this bland, offensive to old guard players but politically correct and social justice sermon of a game. Micheal Avellone was not writer for this game and I did liked his companions from this snooze fest called POE so please don't mix him with those two Comrade.
 

Glop_dweller

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Ok, great. But this doesn't happen with creative professions, they're never forced to retire. And I'm happy for them. But that doesn't mean they're the same men that they once were some fifteen years ago. You, as a fan, need realize, understand and respect the fact that they're past their prime.


This is bogus. Far more likely it is that their games that we are most impressed with were 'lightning in a bottle' that came as the result of the whole team who worked on them—and the circumstance under which they were made. The musician Sting never did any music so great as when he was part of the band The Police. One could probably say the same of Phil Collins, with Genesis vs. his solo career.

*IE. You need the whole Voltron Force to assemble him, not just a leg and an arm.
 

v1rus

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While agree you should not be disrespectful, especially to titans like them, your comparison to athletes is real bad. Yes, as you get older, your body deteriorates, and even your brain loses its sharpness. But you also gain a lot. In case of athletes, what you gain can never even out what you lost, because their literal, physical body is of utmost importance. Retired athletes still do have the experience, maturity and tactical knowledge, which is why a good deal of em become coaches.

To the contrary, when it comes to arts, you do lose something, but the shitton you gained can easily even out, and then get some over what you lost. Maturity and experience before anything. Some of the greatest writers, directors or painters gave us their best work in their last years.

Dont get me wrong, no need to dis the greats, on the contrary, respect where its due. And, the most important thing, they still have time to give us something as equal as their early work, if not even greater.

Personally, i blame the industrialization and hypercommercialization of the medium. That will even out in time. Perhaps Im wrong ofc, but the point is, there is till time for the great artists to give us something even greater.
 
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Trashos

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Look, their underlings had the chance to work with the creators of Fallout, this was THEIR CHANCE TO CREATE THE NEW FALLOUT, and look at the work many of them did. Really, consider the opportunity, and look at their work. I doubt many of those underlings are even interested in RPGs, not to mention their lack of talent.

If Cainarsky have one more fun world to offer (and I don't think we can expect anything more than that, realistically), it is not happening at Obsidian.
 

Wyatt_Derp

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They can do whatever they want with their golden years, so long as they stop using our hobby to try and tell us how to vote or why it's bad to use plastic utensils. Anyone who leverages their fame and social capital to become walking PSAs can go pound sand.
 

Kyl Von Kull

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There’s a difference between losing your edge and selling out. The Outer Worlds falls into the latter category. Tim and Leonard used to make incredibly ambitious games because they believed they didn’t have to sacrifice quality to achieve commercial success (they were wrong). That was great for us, but from their perspective it was extremely foolish. In retrospect, Troika was practically a charity for the gratification of CRPG enthusiasts.

How many times do you make something great that doesn’t really sell before you throw in the towel and make something bland that’s a guaranteed hit? Don’t blame Tim and Leonard, blame the invisible hand of the market. You don’t get to keep making mainstream games unless you give the people what they want. It should come as no surprise that the people have ridiculously bland taste.
 

gestalt11

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The last decade has turned many people into slackjawed hacks and I don't need to respect anyone who has allowed themselves to be artistically lobotomized. Nor would it help them if I did pay them that fake respect.
 

gestalt11

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I love all 3 of them, even if they are dirty commies. However, Tim threw his fans under the bus with that presentation some years ago ("all that stuff you loved and supported us for was a mistake" would be a quick translation), and he still owes them an apology.

Other than that, they are 3 of the greatest, I love them, and want them here. But there is no love without hate, and they have to accept that there is going to be criticism too.

They need to get the fuck out of California (and Portland too), that place drives people insane. OW shows they simply can't make a good setting because they are too divorced from reality. Even (or maybe especially) actual commies like Prime Junta can smell the dissociation. I am not sure Avellone is that compromised but Cainarsky clearly are. They are stuck in a fantasy world of trite bullshit. Its impossible to make impactful (comedic or tragic) art when you are handicapped by that.
 

Glop_dweller

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Tim and Leonard used to make incredibly ambitious games because they believed they didn’t have to sacrifice quality to achieve commercial success (they were wrong). That was great for us, but from their perspective it was extremely foolish. In retrospect, Troika was practically a charity for the gratification of CRPG enthusiasts.

How many times do you make something great that doesn’t really sell before you throw in the towel and make something bland that’s a guaranteed hit? Don’t blame Tim and Leonard, blame the invisible hand of the market. You don’t get to keep making mainstream games unless you give the people what they want. It should come as no surprise that the people have ridiculously bland taste.

Is any of this confirmed (or confirm-able)? I would bet that Tim only worked on the engine. It's possible that Leonard only worked on the art design... Did they write this stuff, or choose the appearance of the models? Design the quests? Was it done with their money, or the company's?

Company money comes with strings attached. Publishers come with strings attached.

Tim Cain has declared that he is not great at writing dialog, and I doubt that he would touch the art.
 
Self-Ejected

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Strap Yourselves In
No Bester, it’s just when they grow old, they realize that they have to pay bills. Like many of us.
 

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