Your disrespectful attitude towards Cain, Boyarsky, Avellone has to stop

[Atchodas]

Thats right keep shoving your money to these old farts because they were involved in development of a good game 20 years ago. Thats exactly what they are counting on when they are developing their dream games such as Outer Worlds

 

[Bah]

AoD sold 200k copies in 4 years, which was an unexpected success. If Colony Ship sells 400-500k in 4 years it will be a major success. For a company the size of Obsidian such numbers would be a major disaster. So as before, the bigger a company gets, the less risks it can take. Plus you can't say that Tim Cain and Boyarsky haven't tried. Arcanum was a great RPG but it sold 234k copies back when Troika was still around.

Arcanum was a great game largely ruined by massive numbers of bugs and a horrible late game. However, neither of those two issues likely had any impact on sales. RPGs of the style that many of us prefer simply are never going to be mass market money makers. I prefer it that way. Definitely looking forward to Colony Ship.

 

[Kyl Von Kull]

Except that Fallout 1 sold well, and right now Fallout is a multi-million dollar franchise. Arcanum also sold well. While games like Bloodlines didn't sold that well, they were not a failure. How we know that? because right now they are working on a sequel of it. With these games they gained the good will of many RPG fans, something that is very important because it brings support. And support it was the developer needs to make more games possible and when the publishers are not happy you go to the fans for that. Just remember all those crownfundings.

The long-term success of a franchise you don’t own is borderline meaningless. Fallout sold pretty well, Arcanum did ok but not well enough for a sequel to be a slam dunk, Bloodlines and TOEE totally bombed. The fact that Bloodlines ultimately became a cult classic didn’t do Tim and Leonard any good. Troika had been shut down for years by then and I doubt they’re getting any royalties. Someone else using the IP you created to make a sequel—without paying you any compensation—is not a win. That’s like someone else fucking your wife.

If they want to get funding to make another game, the last one needs to be a success right out of the gate. That’s what The Outer Worlds is. I don’t know why anyone here has such a hard time imagining that TOW is the kind of thing lots of people like when something like Skyrim can sell thirty million copies.

Ok, guys. It's bad because it was intended to be that way. Because that's what sells.

What kind of moronic answer is that? You talk like a lawyer using a risky strategy to make your guilty client look good.

When you’re writing for money, you always need to consider your audience. Are the people who write Sesame Street total morons? No, they’re making a fucking children’s show. It’s possible to make a children’s show that also appeals to adults, but expecting that to be the norm is a recipe for disappointment.

On the one hand you have a point, but on the other hand Boyarsky said TOW was his "dream game". Which is just plain false advertising if he knew that this game was going to play it safe to the max.

It probably felt like his dream game when he said that in 2017, before the realities of the project caught up with them and they cut huge chunks of content (and mechanics apparently). Once TOW was announced, they were both pretty aggressive about tamping down expectations. Leonard recently did an interview with Gamasutra where he told them he doesn’t enjoy playing TOW because he can’t help imagining how much better it could’ve been (although he saved that disclosure until after the release). That’s my experience with it, too.

 

[Glop_dweller]

That must be the most delusional post I read in a while.

Ok, guys. It's bad because it was intended to be that way. Because that's what sells.

It's sad how often this proves true. An artist making crap that takes them 15 minutes to an hour, might well sell more of their simplistic work, than if they did impeccable paintings of the same subjects.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Fallout sold pretty well...

By all accounts it sold poorly. Wiki says it sold 53k copies in the first 3 months (Sep 30 to Dec 31), 120k in a year, etc. 400k was mentioned several times as the final sale number (before digital sales revitalized it), half of it bargain bin sales. In comparison, Baldur's Gate released a year later sold over a million copies in the first year, in 5 years it sold 2.2 mil copies. So that's your answer. Year 1: 120k vs 1 mil, 5 years: 400-600k (Fargo claimed 600k) vs 2.2 mil.

 

[Whiny-Butthurt-Liberal]

Behead those who are disrespectfulle towards Chris Avellone.

 

[Bah]

Behead those who are disrespectfulle towards Chris Avellone.

How do I kill wolves?????

 

[Glop_dweller]

By all accounts it sold poorly. Wiki says it sold 53k copies in the first 3 months (Sep 30 to Dec 31), 120k in a year, etc. 400k was mentioned several times as the final sale number (before digital sales revitalized it), half of it bargain bin sales. In comparison, Baldur's Gate released a year later sold over a million copies in the first year, in 5 years it sold 2.2 mil copies. So that's your answer. Year 1: 120k vs 1 mil, 5 years: 400-600k (Fargo claimed 600k) vs 2.2 mil.

Why not compare the sales figures of a language study courseware, one for French, and one Zulu? Same program, same quality.

Baldur's Gate was sporting the most sought after license in RPG gaming. Fallout is an acquired taste, for a select group. Comparing it to TSR is like comparing Nutella to Vegemite... and claiming Nutella is better. [better at what, exactly?]

 

[Vault Dweller]

Ok, guys. It's bad because it was intended to be that way. Because that's what sells.

In a sense, yes. Daggerfall almost bankrupted Bethesda (ZeniMax bought it and re-animated). Morrowind showed them the way forward (focus on consoles and simpler design), Oblivion took 'simpler design' to the next level and became a mega hit.

By all accounts it sold poorly. Wiki says it sold 53k copies in the first 3 months (Sep 30 to Dec 31), 120k in a year, etc. 400k was mentioned several times as the final sale number (before digital sales revitalized it), half of it bargain bin sales. In comparison, Baldur's Gate released a year later sold over a million copies in the first year, in 5 years it sold 2.2 mil copies. So that's your answer. Year 1: 120k vs 1 mil, 5 years: 400-600k (Fargo claimed 600k) vs 2.2 mil.

Why not compare the sales figures of a language study courseware, one for French, and one Zulu? Same program, same quality.

Baldur's Gate was sporting the most sought after license in RPG gaming.

Because the license didn't really matter all that much. It's not like it was the first DnD game in ages. Remember Interplay's Descend to Undermountain, released same day as Fallout? BG sold great because it was strikingly beautiful for its time, which got everyone's attention. The media was raving about the visuals non-stop. It was also glorious real-time heroic fantasy with flashy spells and not some obsolete turn-based shite where you play a loser who drew the short straw.

 

[Deleted Member 22431]

That must be the most delusional post I read in a while.

Ok, guys. It's bad because it was intended to be that way. Because that's what sells.

It's sad how often this proves true. An artist making crap that takes them 15 minutes to an hour, might well sell more of their simplistic work, than if they did impeccable paintings of the same subjects.

The conscious decisions in subpar design is evident in the superficial character system, meaningless stats and combat, BUT even a shallow shooter could be more fun and engaging than that dross. Besides, you could make better characters, quests, reactivity and story without hurting sales. That’s why I don’t buy the “it was bad on purpose" excuse. The game could be ten times better in different fronts and it would still sell all the same. The team at Obsidian is simply incompetent and couldn't deliver an engaging game if their lives depended on it. I don’t know how many fuckups in succession Obsidian has to deliver, or how many talents need to abandon the studio so that people here can realize the obvious.

 

[Deleted Member 22431]

Ok, guys. It's bad because it was intended to be that way. Because that's what sells.

In a sense, yes. Daggerfall almost bankrupted Bethesda (ZeniMax bought it and re-animated). Morrowind showed them the way forward (focus on consoles and simpler design), Oblivion took 'simpler design' to the next level and became a mega hit.

Read the above.

 

[Glop_dweller]

The conscious decisions in subpar design is evident in the superficial character system, meaningless stats and combat, BUT even a shallow shooter could be more fun and engaging than that dross. Besides, you could make better characters, quests, reactivity and story without hurting sales. That’s why I don’t buy the “it was bad on purpose" excuse. .

Do you disbelieve this practice of Bethesda?

Notice how FO4 implements what they learned from New Vegas?

There is a talk by Tim Cain that spoke of removing numbered stats in favor of pictographs. Ghastly as that is, it was based on the percieved limitations of their consumers.

Who knows who is responsible for it, but it's hard to imagine any company risking that much money without consumer testing, and educated predictions about what will be well received (by the largest demographic).

*When you only get one shot... some would shoot for the largest audience, rather than aim for the bulls-eye of any one niche.

 

[Deleted Member 22431]

There is a talk by Tim Cain that spoke of removing numbered stats in favor of pictographs. Ghastly as that is, it was based on the percieved limitations of their consumers.

It is one thing to do something because you are a sellout, it is another to make a speech about said practices with good conscience under the impression you are one the luminaries of the medium. If you can't see how unforgivable that speech was, I don't know what to say.

 

[Deleted Member 22431]

Think about it. Tim Cain could make a talk about anything, from previous experiences to minutiae of game design, but he decided to teach and advise other cRPG developers to remove fucking stats. That is so transparently wrong that I'm shocked some people here still had any positive expectations about his latest game.

 

[Glop_dweller]

If you can't see how unforgivable that speech was, I don't know what to say.

Oh it was pretty disheartening, yes.

 

[DeepOcean]

I think the problem is that those designers are surrounded by an enviroment that has an entire different goal from the companies of the 90's.

"Hey, guys. I just killed hundreds of jews because everyone else was doing the same".

That's the "I'm just following orders" excuse. You can justify any kind of immoral behavior with this line of reasoning.

I'm not excusing them, I was just arguing that their fall wasn't by biology and they getting old but because they wished so, to fit in where the money was.

 

[Glop_dweller]

I have seen artists who could paint par with Sargent, reduced to selling primitives—to be able to eat and pay their rent.

 

[Deleted Member 22431]

I'm not excusing them, I was just arguing that their fall wasn't by biology and they getting old but because they wished so, to fit in where the money was.

If Tim Cain still had any dignity left, he would join Ziets in his new studio. He is ridiculously talented, he could make his own engine from scratch, he is one of the most experienced developers in the planet, and so on. In the worst scenario, the independent game wouldn't sell enough and he could land another horrendous soul-crushing job in another studio. He knows how to do it. He simply doesn't give a fuck.

 

[Bah]

On the other hand we have Vault dweller who left a high paying career, formed an RPG studio, and is now providing us with the style of RPG we all should prefer. Even if you don't like his games, he deserves a huge amount of respect for not just being a windbag. He had the courage of character to put some iron in his hand and produce actual results.

I know who I'd rather give money to.

 

[Deleted Member 22431]

I have seen artists who could paint par with Sargent, reduced to selling primitives—to be able to eat and pay their rent.

It's not the same thing. The market for artists is always fucked. You can't pay rent with great art. Read this. You make personal projects on the side, especially nowadays that "high" art is so susceptible to manipulation and fashions. What gives me the chills is that Tim Cain actually thinks TWO is a good cRPG, in good conscience.

 

[jungl]

They probably had little input the game was made to sell to the masses either way I think having respect for people you never interacted with in real life, hero worshiping if you will is a mental illness that belongs on reddit, Byzantium, shoutbox, hunger games capital city or forums where people discuss politics. With that said outer worlds pissed me off how its the same old same shit we seen before game design wise in western rpgs when it comes to how factions work. Oh no I didn't listen to the stronk woman npc on monarch and now the whole planet is doomed and animals eat everyone.

Whats up with outer worlds setting where a lot of npcs are potrayed as literal morons and then you have genius go getter womans that need no mans and uncle rick sanchez as the only ones able to save the day. If that is the case then everyone deserves to die.

 

[Deleted Member 22431]

On the other hand we have Vault dweller who left a high paying career, formed an RPG studio, and is now providing us with the style of RPG we all should prefer. Even if you don't like his games, he deserves a huge amount of respect for not just being a windbag. He had the courage of character to put some iron in his hand and produce actual results.

I know who I'd rather give money to.

I have been saying this for years. If you have a passion for cRPGs, indie is the way to go. But it requires sacrifice, talent, and good management. It makes zero sense to make cRPGs where stats don't matter. It's a risky enterprise due to this own nature, like a somersault. You either give everything you got, or you fall. There is no middle ground.

 

[Vault Dweller]

The conscious decisions in subpar design is evident in the superficial character system, meaningless stats and combat, BUT even a shallow shooter could be more fun and engaging than that dross.

I haven't played the game yet so I can't comment.

Besides, you could make better characters, quests, reactivity and story without hurting sales.

That's what you want and what I want but is there any evidence that that's what the casual market wants? Deeper quests take time and effort (and thus money), reactivity (beyond cosmetic) can confuse and upset people (why am I being punished for making the wrong choice?! or force them to stop playing and start googling which choice is better, then getting all upset about it, etc).

I'm not excusing them, I was just arguing that their fall wasn't by biology and they getting old but because they wished so, to fit in where the money was.

If Tim Cain still had any dignity left, he would join Ziets in his new studio. He is ridiculously talented, he could make his own engine from scratch, he is one of the most experienced developers in the planet, and so on. In the worst scenario, the independent game wouldn't sell enough and he could land another horrendous soul-crushing job in another studio. He knows how to do it. He simply doesn't give a fuck.

He tried once and in the end had to close the studio and lay off people, which had to be a very painful experience. You can't blame him for not wanting to go through this experience again. While we all applaud Ziets for leaving and co-starting his own studio, it's a gamble (and the more people they get on aboard, the bigger the gamble).

 

[Bah]

I have been saying this for years. If you have a passion for cRPGs, indie is the way to go.

Jeff Vogel is another great example. I only wish his games maybe had a slightly more modern interface and worked better under linux/wine.

 

[Glop_dweller]

It was also glorious real-time heroic fantasy with flashy spells and not some obsolete turn-based shite where you play a loser who drew the short straw.

Realtime heroic fantasy [computer] games are older than most turn based [computer] games; (they came first, before TB). Turn based is neither obsolete, nor shite... it's just a different style of game. Realtime and Turn Based do not compete (except for sales), and neither surpasses the other at offering the other's intended experience.

**Though I suspect—hope that you intended it as the snarky opinion of the mass-consumer, comparing both games side by side.