Your disrespectful attitude towards Cain, Boyarsky, Avellone has to stop

[Tigranes]

Maybe there's no "ezy secret way" to make sure your game is (1) actually really good, and (2) sells enough, partly because nothing about the industry is set up for that particularly?

"OH BUT THIS ONE GAME DID IT SO SURELY EVERYBODY ELSE CAN DO THE SAME THING"

Usually, it's interesting to note, the best games happen not only because of great talent that uncompromisingly pursue their vision and make sacrifices - but also, because they happen to benefit from some circumstance that leaves them with some money to spend in an economically unwise way. Interplay/BIS RPGs were supported by profits from other, simpler games / publishing side of the business (and even then a different ownership structure might have shut them down earlier, let's say, immediately after FO1). Disco Elysium was supported by some rich guy as far as we know.

It's almost like great games are born in the error margins of capitalism.

 

[Pink Eye]

No. I mean what I wrote. Bad management. Vault Dweller said that bigger teams still need proper fundings. You don't need 1000+ employees to make a good CRPG. Pathfinder had far less people, and a far less budget.

Pathfinder is still ridden with bugs to this day, no? There is a reason for that. The game was released in an unfinished and unpolished state.

>Pathfinder is still ridden with bugs to this day, no?

Nope. The developers stuck with the game. The game is perfectly playable.

Apparently, I am being bombarded with citations. Not too long ago I completed Pathfinder on unfair. I am also currently playing Pathfinder on Unfair Iron Man mode as well. Most of the game breaking bugs have been fixed. That isn't me being a fan boy.

 

[Kyl Von Kull]

Did POE really have a bigger team than Kingmaker? Because looking at the size of the Kingmaker team on mobygames, I kinda doubt it.

https://www.mobygames.com/game/windows/pathfinder-kingmaker/credits

 

[Pink Eye]

Did POE really have a bigger team than Kingmaker? Because looking at the size of the Kingmaker team on mobygames, I kinda doubt it.

https://www.mobygames.com/game/windows/pathfinder-kingmaker/credits

Their point is that games are cheaper to make in Russia.

 

[Pink Eye]

Then don't live in an area where living costs are expensive. There's this thing, called planning and budgeting.

Feargus has only ever lived in SoCal. It's a drag, but he also receives some benefit from living close to other game developers. It's an even greater risk to be out in the middle of nowhere.

Additionally, no matter where he lives in the US, Russia still has the advantage (as long as they have competent employees; Owlcat's a notable exception to the usual Russian shovelware that gets churned out of their country).

>It's an even greater risk to be out in the middle of nowhere.

We don't live in the stone age anymore. Skype call, Discord, Facebook, Twitter, Phones, and Email.

 

[Roguey]

>It's an even greater risk to be out in the middle of nowhere.

We don't live in the stone age anymore. Skype call, Discord, Facebook, Twitter, Phones, and Email.

The risks are with regard to hiring and losing people. People working remotely can work when it's just a single digit number of reliable people doing it, but teams of dozens? All sorts of potential problems and risks there (hence why no one's done it yet as far as I know; of course companies would love not to have to bother with the upkeep of a large building to hold employees in if they could get away with it)

 

[Deleted Member 22431]

cRPGs is now a forgotten art. If were not for a few teams, nobody would have any idea what those stat things are for. It is hard too. The combat system alone will include itemization, encounter design, balance, resource management, skills, etc. Never-mind the reactivity, story, NPCs, world building, art, etc. It is already hard if you have a competent team, a leader with a strong vision and you immersive completely. It becomes impossible if you have an incompetent team of failed artists with SJW inclinations and you are making compromises to please non-cRPG players.

 

[Alpan]

I can understand 2019 Cain and Boyarsky and their unwillingness to take risks, given their proven formula and the fact that they worked with a new publisher (standard Obsidian procedure for burning through publishers, I guess) for The Outer Worlds. I can see why they made the choices they did. Perhaps they will be more daring for the sequel.

I don't get 2019 Avellone, though. The events leading to his de-ownership (which is probably the consequence of some buyback clause he never bothered to look through when he originally signed the shareholder agreements) appear to have exposed a bitter, petty side to him that makes itself known at every opportunity, like a wound that does not stop bleeding. It's obvious he can't get over it, and it's like he's deteriorated as a human being as a result, both psychologically (which can be seen in his engagements on Twitter) and physically. Not that this calls for disrespect, but in the end, only he's responsible for getting his shit together.

 

[Deleted Member 22431]

I can understand 2019 Cain and Boyarsky and their unwillingness to take risks, given their proven formula and the fact that they worked with a new publisher (standard Obsidian procedure for burning through publishers, I guess) for The Outer Worlds. I can see why they made the choices they did. Perhaps they will be more daring for the sequel.

I don't understand anything. I'm not Tim Cain's analyst. I'm a cRPG player who hates shooters and dyke activism. I don't buy games to be lectured about how I should proceed with my choice of names. I buy games to immerse myself in a good old combat system and make choices. It’s underwhelming and depressing to see people like Tim Cain promoting shooters and the remotion of stats if you are an enthusiast of the genre. This thread is not about respect. It is about a lack of self-respect and personality cult. Your goal is to buy good games and enjoy them, not be a lawyer of a decadent developer who has other priorities in life and probably despise you. You are not his target audience, Bester. You just think you are because you have no self-respect and you think you will become special if you kiss his feet.

 

[Alpan]

I don't understand anything. I'm not Tim Cain's analyst. I'm a cRPG player who hates shooters and dyke activism. I don't buy games to be lectured about how I should proceed with my choice of names. I buy games to immerse myself in a good old combat system and make choices. It’s underwhelming and depressing to see people like Tim Cain promoting shooters and the remotion of stats if you are an enthusiast of the genre. This thread is not about respect. It is about a lack of self-respect and personality cult. Your goal is to buy good games and enjoy them, not be a lawyer of a decadent developer who has other priorities in life and probably despise you. You are not his target audience, Bester. You just think you are because you have no self-respect and you think you will become special if you kiss his feet.

 

[Tigranes]

Then don't live in an area where living costs are expensive. There's this thing, called planning and budgeting.

Feargus has only ever lived in SoCal. It's a drag, but he also receives some benefit from living close to other game developers. It's an even greater risk to be out in the middle of nowhere.

Additionally, no matter where he lives in the US, Russia still has the advantage (as long as they have competent employees; Owlcat's a notable exception to the usual Russian shovelware that gets churned out of their country).

>It's an even greater risk to be out in the middle of nowhere.

We don't live in the stone age anymore. Skype call, Discord, Facebook, Twitter, Phones, and Email.

Anyone who's been involved in, or led, an actual creative project will know:

1/ The more people in your project, the more % of your time is spent on people management and other logistics, not "being creative". Same goes for war, where managing logistics, fining people or judging discipline cases can be more important for success than 'fighting' and 'tactics'.

2/ When any of your team is working from home or from a different time zone or speaks a different language or whatever, multiply the pain in the arse from 1/ tenfold.

It's obviously not impossible and sometimes it might really be worth it - AOD, for instance, has an international team, doesn't it? But saying it's "easy" is like saying warfare was just about pressing a button to conscript people and then coming up with the best tactic.

 

[I ASK INANE QUESTIONS]

have exposed a bitter, petty side to him that makes itself known at every opportunity, like a wound that does not stop bleeding.

It's obvious he can't get over it, and it's like he's deteriorated as a human being as a result

 

[Deleted Member 22431]

When any of your team is working from home or from a different time zone or speaks a different language or whatever, multiply the pain in the arse from 1/ tenfold.

It's only a psychological advantage because you can communicate just fine with Skype and email.

 

[S.torch]

It wasn't financed by KS, the game was in development for over a year before KS (and I'm sure you know that the Pathfinder license isn't free either). KS merely raised extra money (cherry on the cake, plus free publicity); not to mention that at some point Deep Silver funded the game as well.

So you're saying they were not financed by Kickstarter because they have a prototype of the game and a license? If they didn't have neither a license, and a prototype, what were they going to show in the Kickstarter? "Hey we're gonna make a game about Pathfinder but we need the money first because we don't have a license".

 

[Trashos]

Inb4 Avellone applies for a job at Microsoft, just so that he can take over Obsidian.

 

[Kyl Von Kull]

you're saying they were not financed by Kickstarter because they have a prototype of the game and a license? If they didn't have neither a license, and a prototype, what were they going to show in the Kickstarter? "Hey we're gonna make a game about Pathfinder but we need the money first because we don't have a license

As they said in the pitch, the game was coming out with or without the Kickstarter money, but they wanted another $900,000 to improve some aspects and make it bigger.

None of these crowdfunding games would ever be devastating commercial failures if the companies behind them only spent the money they raised from backers.

I don't get 2019 Avellone, though. The events leading to his de-ownership (which is probably the consequence of some buyback clause he never bothered to look through when he originally signed the shareholder agreements) appear to have exposed a bitter, petty side to him that makes itself known at every opportunity, like a wound that does not stop bleeding. It's obvious he can't get over it, and it's like he's deteriorated as a human being as a result, both psychologically (which can be seen in his engagements on Twitter) and physically. Not that this calls for disrespect, but in the end, only he's responsible for getting his shit together.

Dude, his mom is very sick (cancer IIRC) and as a good Sicilian boy he can’t work full time because he needs to take care of her. Gonna make a wild guess that this is also why he doesn’t live in the same place as his wife.

 

[Vault Dweller]

It wasn't financed by KS, the game was in development for over a year before KS (and I'm sure you know that the Pathfinder license isn't free either). KS merely raised extra money (cherry on the cake, plus free publicity); not to mention that at some point Deep Silver funded the game as well.

So you're saying they were not financed by Kickstarter because they have a prototype of the game and a license? If they didn't have neither a license, and a prototype, what were they going to show in the Kickstarter? "Hey we're gonna make a game about Pathfinder but we need the money first because we don't have a license".

I'm saying that the game was financed by whoever paid for a year+ development time and the license. They had the first two acts done (wouldn't call that a prototype) when they took the game to KS.

 

[Deleted Member 16721]

Kenshi was made by one guy. It's not so much having a vision that makes great games (as I used to think) but it's really all about passion. As long as the devs have passion for the project it has a chance to be very good. A vision is awkward because visions change and sometimes devs like the Kenshi guy might not even realize what exactly they're making, they just keep plugging away.

As for Tim and Leonard, they probably aren't ego-driven as much anymore and make games for fun instead of intense desire to succeed first and foremost. By all means they've succeeded anyway with Outer Worlds based on mainstream opinion, and this also generally happens (success) when devs love their game. So the Codex doesn't like it, so what? Good for TIMNARD making their dream game at an advanced age in this industry and finding success with it. I wish them nothing but the best.

 

[S.torch]

I'm saying that the game was financed by whoever paid for a year+ development time and the license. They had the first two acts done (wouldn't call that a prototype) when they took the game to KS.

Not saying that I don't believe it, but:

Luckily, we have some money from our parent company that’s allowed us to build a solid prototype. Right now we have a good-enough quality sample of gameplay that we can go to show for the first time at PaizoCon. It’s a convention that will be held at the end of the week in Seattle. Once again, we’re lucky enough to have the money to complete a solid game. We’ll be able to ship that to our players.

https://venturebeat.com/2017/05/31/...kstarter-for-extra-content-not-the-base-game/

This is off-topic but... you're the creator of Age of Decadence aren't you? Very cool game man, very cool.

 

[Pink Eye]

Kenshi was made by one guy. It's not so much having a vision that makes great games (as I used to think) but it's really all about passion. As long as the devs have passion for the project it has a chance to be very good. A vision is awkward because visions change and sometimes devs like the Kenshi guy might not even realize what exactly they're making, they just keep plugging away.

As for Tim and Leonard, they probably aren't ego-driven as much anymore and make games for fun instead of intense desire to succeed first and foremost. By all means they've succeeded anhway with Outer Worlds based on mainstream opinion, and this also generally happens (success) when devs love their game. So the Codex doesn't like it, so what? Good for TIMNARD making their dream game at an advanced age in this industry and finding success with it. I wish them nothing but the best.

>It's not so much having a vision that makes great games (as I used to think) but it's really all about passion.

You're missing their points. Passion doesn't pay bills. Appealing to the mass market does.

 

[Valky]

And that's why garbage like RTWP and fortnite exists.

 

[SpaceWizardz]

As for Tim and Leonard, they probably aren't ego-driven as much anymore and make games for fun instead of intense desire to succeed first and foremost.

Please explain your mindset.
How do you come to the conclusion that games like Fallout/Arcanum were made to be massive successes first and foremost while Outer Worlds was simply for giggles?
In recent interviews what is it about Tim and Leonard almost constantly iterating about Time & Budget™ and "Not making the same mistakes as Troika" (paraphrased) that tell you Outer Worlds was the game where they just made what they want with no concern for success?

 

[Tigranes]

Kenshi was made by one guy. It's not so much having a vision that makes great games (as I used to think) but it's really all about passion. As long as the devs have passion for the project it has a chance to be very good. A vision is awkward because visions change and sometimes devs like the Kenshi guy might not even realize what exactly they're making, they just keep plugging away.

As for Tim and Leonard, they probably aren't ego-driven as much anymore and make games for fun instead of intense desire to succeed first and foremost. By all means they've succeeded anhway with Outer Worlds based on mainstream opinion, and this also generally happens (success) when devs love their game. So the Codex doesn't like it, so what? Good for TIMNARD making their dream game at an advanced age in this industry and finding success with it. I wish them nothing but the best.

"Passion" doesn't solve all your problems. You need passion, and then you need 18 other things. Bill Gates doesn't get there with just "passion". Not even indisputably out of this world individuals like Mozart. Life isn't an anime where when you love RPGs enough you scream loudly about it and get superpowers.

Unless you mean the intelligence and experience to solve all the problems in your way, the hard work and diligence to keep cracking at them, the resources and help you need to know what to even work hard at and to keep feeding yourself, the bit of luck you need for that little bit of exposure, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc....

Ask Vault Dweller or Styg if passion was the only thing you needed.

 

[Tyranicon]

You're missing their points. Passion doesn't pay bills. Appealing to the mass market does.

If you can identify and connect with a specific niche, that can be more profitable for indiedevs than appealing to a mass market where your competitors have bigger budgets, bigger teams, and bigger dicks than you.

I also can't think of a single indie RPG dev that appeals to the mass market.

 

[Pink Eye]

You're missing their points. Passion doesn't pay bills. Appealing to the mass market does.

If you can identify and connect with a specific niche, that can be more profitable for indiedevs than appealing to a mass market where your competitors have bigger budgets, bigger teams, and bigger dicks than you.

I also can't think of a single indie RPG dev that appeals to the mass market.

You're not necessarily wrong. That last comment was just to poke at posts from earlier. My point was that passion doesn't pay bills. What Fluent failed to mention about that Kenshi Developer is that he worked on the game for many years. He started working on it as part time. I bet with full certainty that he wasn't being paid for his earlier work. Do you think that is sustainable for a studio that has to support people?