Volourn's Jade Empire Chapter 1 Impressions aka Fanboy Alert

[protobob]

Volourn:

"That's not the main quest. Nice try; though. That's like saying FO's story is 'get the water chip'.... Oops... That IS FO's story. LOL"

Well, I should have qualified that statement. It's not as bad as NWN and the KOTOR's were with their 'go to 4 places and find 4 items at each place' structure, but I did feel some hints of it with the dragon amulet quest.

"Boring? WOWSERS! As for size, why do people say this? Lien's Landing is an example of a huge. Certainly no smaller than KOTOR's. What were people expecting? Morrowind? The baddest part of this though are the slow load times."

Well, the thing that bugs me is the feeling of being on rails. It just feels very 'digital' (vs. analog). Final Fantasy X, Fable, etc. all suffer from this as well...it's the console rpg's tragic flaw. I guess you have to expect it, but I still don't like it. That said the second town you find is nice and big...

"False. First off, the two philosophies aren't so black and white. Example from ch1: There's this guy who has a debt he can't pay and you have the option to tell him to get lost, (just rude), offer to pay his debt (Open palm), or tell him he should find a way to pay off his own debt (Closed Fist). That is not evil. Where is the evil there? Sure, there are thuggish evil moments; but you don't have to choose them and still maintain your Closed Fistness from what i can tell. Can't ay for sure though since I'm an Open Palm Dude."

Yeah, you are right, my statement wasn't very accurate. I was thinking mostly of the 'prominent asshole of chapter 1' when I wrote that. I'm doing the open palm path, fyi.

"5. Setting, story and writing not very interesting IMHO.'
What? What? What?"

Personal Opinion. I thought the same thing of KOTOR, but thought KOTOR2 was better (except for the botched ending). I bet Obsidian could make a good Jade Empire 2.

"It has enough. It has enough darkness and grit. Afterall, it's not exactly Happy Happy Land. And, you can't save everyone."

Yeah, but the darkness isn't very interesting. Needs more shades of grey or something. Maybe it gets better.

"Yes, it has an epic story. That doens't make it bad."

Well, I'm just SO FRICKIN BORED of 'epic/save the world' stories...sigh.

"You. are. crazy. I love this combat. I love this engine. It's awesome."

Good for you.

"1. Combat is more engaging than KOTOR ever was.
Understatement of the year award goes to you."

But it would be better turn-based.

"4. It's not Forgotten Realms
This doens't matter either way. Not a positive or negative, imo. then again, I am bias since I love the FR."

I think the Jade Empire setting feels as generic as the Forgotten Realms setting feels to me. This is just my personal taste kicking in.

"Meh. Weapons are for useless. It steals my focus. I'm concentrating on Legendary Strike, Heavenly Wave, and Ice Shards as my three styles. I barely touch the weapon styles..."

Weapons are powerfull, and very good for well armored targets like the Ogres and the Toads...I beat them both easily without any upgrades to my weapon skill.

"We had one in ch1. Of course, the problem with BIo's twists right now is that everyone seems to expect one eventually...."

The problem with half the movies/stores/games being made is that they all have twists. It's getting to the point where thest most unexpected twist would be not to have a twist at all. Also I wouldn't call the revelation in chapter 1 a twist so much as a 'reveal.'

"Still; though I disagree with many of your assessments; at least they resonate as being honest and fair. I think you seem to dislike BIO's style of game devlopment. That's another thing tow arn others of: this is a BIO game. Don't expect anything other than that."

That pretty much sums it up. BIO has good production values and their games are usually enjoyable, but their cookie cutter isn't my favorite shape.

 

[protobob]

The combat, while rather quick paced, still manages to give you actual time to think about your next move. It's wowsers!

It's not quite as smooth as the combat in Fable (and I like the combat in Fable), but there is more thought involved. You just can't button mash for teh win, atleast not with fast character type.

I'm not quite as gung-ho on the combat as you are but it is fun.

 

[Volourn]

Well said.


"I did feel some hints of it with the dragon amulet quest."

I agree. I think they coulda done the same thing with this without making it so blatant - espicially after the whole NWN-KOTOR items earch fiasco. If it wasn't for those two games; this likely would not be noticeable.


"I bet Obsidian could make a good Jade Empire 2."

Anyone can. Afterall; the story, background, combat system, and the engine are already done. I'm sure BIO will learn from certain things to improve JE2.


"But it would be better turn-based."

Hmm. You think so? I usually prefer tb over rt myelf; but I dunno how I'd feel about JE's combat in a tb system. It would just feel wrong. Then again, JE's combat as tb would be an interesting think to see... I'd think it would lose it's 'uniqueness' though...


"It's getting to the point where thest most unexpected twist would be not to have a twist at all."

Agreed.


"Also I wouldn't call the revelation in chapter 1 a twist so much as a 'reveal.'"

Good point. It's a subtle yet descernible different. I must say though, and I'm sure you agree, that it does bring back BG1 memories? Of course, that's either good or bad. LOL

proto: Sadly, I can't comapre it to Fable... yet.

 

[Sarkile]

"Also I wouldn't call the revelation in chapter 1 a twist so much as a 'reveal.'"

Good point. It's a subtle yet descernible different. I must say though, and I'm sure you agree, that it does bring back BG1 memories? Of course, that's either good or bad. LOL

OMG! Does Gorion die again?!?!!1

proto: Sadly, I can't comapre it to Fable... yet.

Don't bother, the only redeeming factor of Fable is the graphics. But hey, maybe you'll be one of those that enjoyed the game.

 

[Volourn]

"OMG! Does Gorion die again?!?!!1"

Yes. OMG I spoilered ya.


"But hey, maybe you'll be one of those that enjoyed the game."

Why not? GS says its better than JE so it *must* be true.

 

[Sarkile]

But Gorion was my favorite character!

And unless you're talking about Canadian dollars, I would say that Fable isn't worth $20.

 

[protobob]

"Hmm. You think so? I usually prefer tb over rt myelf; but I dunno how I'd feel about JE's combat in a tb system. It would just feel wrong. Then again, JE's combat as tb would be an interesting think to see... I'd think it would lose it's 'uniqueness' though..."

Well, I can imagine a ramped up version of Vagrant Story's turn-based body-part targeting system with multi-part combos and such that would be pretty cool. But you wouldn't be able to pull it off with this engine.

"Good point. It's a subtle yet descernible different. I must say though, and I'm sure you agree, that it does bring back BG1 memories? Of course, that's either good or bad. LOL"

Yeah, I got HUGE BG1 vibes from chapter 1. I was half expecting DS to run up to me and say 'Hiya!' I was a rpg newbie when I played BG and I liked it, but I've never been able to replay it.

 

[fnordcircle]

I like some of the styles my dude is learning and I like the way they present the path of the Open Palm and the path of the Closed Fist as having a clear mindset behind them as opposed to being mindlessly evil. It's probably the first singleplayer game where I felt like I was actually roleplaying by picking out the answers appropriate to the path my character has chosen.

I like the Spirit Thief style a lot and the extra bit of strategy that adds into combat.

The lifeless levels and loading times still annoy the crap out of me and why a professional game developer feels that putting an impassable 1 foot rock as a 'barrier' is a good idea is beyond me.

Also stupid floating power ups and other nonsensical hold overs from the 8 bit days should be done away with, if only in a cosmetic sense, for more realism.

Let me tear the clothing off a dead opponent and use that as a makeshift bandage which gets represented on my frame which, by the end of the whole game, would look like Jubei from Ninja Scroll.

 

[Aaron Contreras]

The Gamespot review has gotten some negative reactions. I find I agree with it. Kasavin is pretty damn accurate where he nails the combat system of the game as being limited compared to player expectations. I expected counters, throws and simple Dynasty Warriors combos (Square, Square, Square, Triangle) within a single style. I hoped for high-flying wire-fu wuxia martial chivalry badass flying people stuff.

I don't feel like a skilled martial artist playing JE. Specialization seems to breed weakness - except in the aligned jedi (open palm) or sith (closed fist) styles.

They do create an extremely attractive setting - one that I hope will be revisited.

I'm glad that some hardcore RPG guys enjoy the combat in the game. Those of us who chewed through Torment, God of War and KOTOR with equal enthusiasm have a different set of expectations from an Action-RPG title.

 

[Volourn]

"I expected counters, throws and simple Dynasty Warriors combos "

You expected that? Then you obviously weren't paying attention. That was never promised or even hinted at being a part of the game.


"Torment, and KOTOR"

Any of us who have played through KOTOR would know that KOTOR has nothing on JE. Nothing. JE is not even the same stratosphere as JE. If you think KOTOR is better than JE then you are obviously either a SW fanboy or just plain don't know what makes good fun challenging combat.

Torment, so far, beats JE story wise and likely role-playing wise; but the combat has always been crap and JE doens't even have to try to crush it as it does it with ease.

No offense (ok, I lied, some) intended. It's all good either way.

 

[space captain]

I just finished the game - and yeh, in retrospect it could have been infinitely better in so many ways. Bioware seems to have focused on graphics to the detriment of game content - 2 cities??? thats pathetic

also every single plot twist and story arc is so beyond predictable - its like a nursey school book... someone said they studied "Journey to the West" before doing this - but they should have studied it ALOT more, because the storyline comes off more contrived and cheesy than mythic and bizzare

i think the whole immersion thing killed the game really - they focused too much on conversations that had no meaning... the main character constantly repeats himself and is slower on the uptake than your grandma on nyquil... if each and every interaction wasnt so bogged in minutae the entire story could have been alot more epic

and thats the main problem with the game - it seems very myopic, very small in scale... and that shouldnt be in an RPG...

comparing it to something like Final Fantasy 5 (as JE is obviously trying to be a console RPG) is very telling... while the total play length is prob about 1/3 of FF5 it seems much much shorter than that simply because of how focused and tightly woven the story line is, and how much dialog goes with it - alot of which is pointless repetitive explanation

the true story itself doesnt make many turns, and like i said - they are so predictable that you almost feel youve already played the game

thats another problem: its SOOOO Bioware - its obvious in the types of quests, and the types of characters you meet..

and its odd because the game is rated M (17+) and yet the story and the quests seem very much geared to the 10-13 year old range... everything is so kiddie kiddie

oddly enough yes the game is worth it - simply for the cutscenes alone - and one special guest appearance that had me rolling on the floor

overall tho - it signals the end of epic RPGs... there is just WAAAAAAAYYY too much focus on graphics and pointless "immersion"... it comes off feeling more like any other action or adventure game - and that IS WRONG

RPGs are supposed to be epic journeys - like reading the Lord of the Rings Trilogy or something.... unfortunately i doubt any american developer will be making any true RPG games EVER AGAIN

WEEP FOR THE FUTURE MY CHILDREN

 

[dipdipdip]

"I expected counters, throws and simple Dynasty Warriors combos "

You expected that? Then you obviously weren't paying attention. That was never promised or even hinted at being a part of the game.

Agreed. While it's undeniable that those things would be nice, one look at any preview of the game during its three or so years in development would show that those things were never in.

2 cities??? thats pathetic

Ouch...

There's only Tien's Landing of chapter 2 and the Imperial City of chapter 3? I believe there's at least seven chapters to the game... Without spoiling anything, how short do they get?

 

[Volourn]

What's he's counting as cities/ Tien's Landing isn't really a city is it? Thee are three towns that I know of. Or did he seem to forget Two Rivers? Most BIO games don't have lots of towns/cities in them so why is this OMG shocking?

As for the quests being kiddified? All I gotta say is what do you mean by kiddifed? Do you mean when you get the chance to convince that one woman to kill the amn who resfuses to marry her even though he 'promised' to amrry here along with his fiance? That kiddy quest? Or 'how bout the one where you tell the guy to grow some ballz and take care of his own debts... then he can later turn up amongst your enemies to kill you as part of paying off his debts?

And, i tell ya what, when RPGs like FF get conversation skills then you can compare them to JE. Otherwise, you are being dumb.

R00fles!

 

[space captain]

im not being dumb - you are being mindlessly defensive because you identify with your opinions

the game is for kids - anyone who plays through the game and reads the dialog will realize this.... For example lets compare it to Bloodlines - purely in regards to dialog, it is much, much more "mature"..... And the way every single person has to hold your hand through each conversation just reinforces how little thinking is involved

you seem to think that the option for killing automatically makes the quest mature?? i guess that shows how old you must be - as in, pre-pubescent

just because there is always the "closed fist" option for dialogs and quests doesnt mean there is any complexity in the quests, or in the way they are presented... that is the problem - it requires the REASONING power of a child - no more... the puzzles are so easy they arent really puzzles

Two Rivers is a city?? Are you fucking joking? I guess if you are willing to slant your view of reality that far then there is nothing that we can discuss. I dont see a point in debating falsifications.

but it seems obvious you have no real argument against what I said anyways - since this is all you could come up with

oh and BTW - if you arent playing on "Grandmaster" setting then you are a total wussbag... the default setting is easy beyond measure... Grandmaster is at least a little challenging

 

[dipdipdip]

So, do the chapters get shorter after chapter 3 or what?

There's no towns/cities/villages/whatever after the Imperial City?

 

[space captain]

oh HELLLL yes they get shorter - in fact once you get to the Palace the first time, things get pretty much railed down one extemely narrow path for the rest of the game - you'll have a few different little points to do some things... but not alot

nope - no towns/villages/cities after the Imperial City

consider the "open-ended" portion over once you get to Chapter 4... no more exploration and maybe 2 or 3 subquests from then on

 

[Volourn]

"you identify with your opinions"

No way? Really? I actually have the NERVE to didentify with MY opinions? Holy shit man. When people start identifying with their own opinions it surely proves the world is crumbling down.


"you seem to think that the option for killing automatically makes the quest mature??"

You obviously skipped over one of my examples. One of them doesn't including you killing anyone. And, there are other examples.


"For example lets compare it to Bloodlines - purely in regards to dialog, it is much, much more "mature"....."

Yeha, let's do that. You ready for this, everyone? Here I go:

"THIS SHIT IS WHACK!"

Game over. It is obvious that BL has more mature dialogue than any game I have ever played. That lines proves this beyond all doubt.

P.S. I actually like Bl's dialogue and overall; it is is pretty mature; but don't be retarded and leave such an opening next time. Maroon.


"because there is always the "closed fist" option for dialogs and quests doesnt mean there is any complexity in the quests, or in the way they are presented... that is the problem - it requires the REASONING power of a child - no more... the puzzles are so easy they arent really puzzles"

*yawn* I ahve never seen a game with a quest that is relaly complex. JE is no different. It's as complex as any other RPG. Don't be playing retard. then again, you are probably one of those who think that KOTOR2 is 'deep' and 'philosphical'. R00fles!


"Two Rivers is a city?? Are you fucking joking? I guess if you are willing to slant your view of reality that far then there is nothing that we can discuss. I dont see a point in debating falsifications."

That's great. Consideirng I never called it a city. I was asking for your clarification of 'city'. Afterall, you called the seocnd town a city which it *is* not. Then again, most BIO game shaven't had that many cities. Why are you calling fart objects poo? Stop making a big deal over a small issue.


"oh and BTW - if you arent playing on "Grandmaster" setting then you are a total wussbag... the default setting is easy beyond measure... Grandmaster is at least a little challenging"

Yup. You musta be one of those who beat the game by just clicking a over and over again. Hahaha.

 

[space captain]

blah, blah, man - i didnt read that shit and i have no desire to "debate" anyways... however, even if I did, it would be impossible since you are incapable of apprehending reality without bending your perceptions till they fit into your per-established belief systems... you are a closed book

i bet you are a christian arent you

 

[Shagnak]

And I bet you are spaceman aren't you.

Oh...no...wait

 

[space captain]

the bottom line is that its a very fun game - and its a damn good game overall... its 10x better than KOTOR, no doubt... but thats not to say its a good RPG

in fact in terms of an RPG - its very bad... its not even what I would call a true RPG - its some kind of new bastard RPG genre... its like a "Bioware RPG" is its own special genre... in this game theres no thieving - no picking locks or pockets - no warrior or magic user specific type quests... and its not because you can do whatever you want, its just that those various options arent available at all - you are just a good guy or a bad guy

its all about combat and dialog - thats it ... and splitting things up into this sort of moral good vs. bad thing - its integral to the game, but it really simplifies things... and it doesnt help that the quests are just so easy as to not even be quests but simply excercises in reading.. there is really so little thought involved that its effectively mindless

you know if you compare the dialog to the holy mother RPG, ie. Fallout - its just really pathetic in terms of what choices you have and how they actually affect things, and of course in using your brain to select what to say - JE is really low brow, simplistic fare

but thats the price you have to pay when you get every single line spoken by voice actors... personally I would rather have more a more flexible system with no voice overs at all - but that is not the market trend, as in: it dont sell

its actually a good thing that the game is setup how it is, because it really feels like you are playing in some kind of hong kong movie - where plots are simple and the good guy is clearly defined, etc. etc... it is very cinematic and that really helps overall because you can get into it even though its so cliched and contrived...

but if you dont like kung fu movies you probably wouldnt like the game at all

you know I really wont say much about the combat system, but for a martial arts game its just fucking sad they couldnt have included AT LEAST more animations, not to mention more moves or wire fu type shit... it is just the absolute bare minimum, and anyone who grew up playing mortal kombat or anything like that will be bored stiff... even on grandmaster mode - its pretty damn easy

 

[Shagnak]

the bottom line is that its a very fun game - and its a damn good game overall... its 10x better than KOTOR, no doubt... but thats not to say its a good RPG

Look...
This is all good and well; but, without having played the game, when you start saying "it's 10x better than..." a stock RPG thats at the very least "okay", and then say its still apparently crap....
Well...it makes Volourn look balanced.

 

[dipdipdip]

How many hours do you have on your game, Captain?

I'm 14 hours in, still enjoying Ch. 3.

 

[Volourn]

"i bet you are a christian arent you"

a. What does religion have to do with this?

b. I'd rather be called stupid than be referred to being a Christian. i don't worship murderers.


"its not even what I would call a true RPG"

I'm gonna put in it in simple terms so peolle - espicially can understand - if games like KOTOR, BG, BL, TOEE, the GB & other old RPGs, and a host of other games cna be considered RPGs than JE certainly is one as well.

So what if the combat is RT. Everyone agrees besides the (crappy) RT combat, BL is a RPG.


"know if you compare the dialog to the holy mother RPG, ie. Fallout - its just really pathetic in terms of what choices you have and how they actually affect things, and of course in using your brain to select what to say"

No game, save Arcanum at its best, can comapre to FO's options and role-playing. That still doens't prove its not a RPG. JE is like every other BIO RPG - heavy on story, solid roleplayinga,d its share of combat. GFrom what i can tell, JE has less combat per minutes of play than KOTOR that's for sure.

But,, heh, it's not for everyone. Perhaps, you simply shouldn';t buy BIO RPGs if all you want is FO. BIO is *not* gonna make FO. Get over it.


"in this game theres no thieving - no picking locks or pockets - no warrior or magic user specific type quests"

And? It's a friggin' kung fun RPG. Sure, I'll be the first to say that those would be cool options to have; but they aren't absolutely needed. Of course, it's very easy to ignore the three DIFFERENT dialogue skills they have. Hell, outside of 3E D&D game slike NWN and TOEE; tell me ONE game that has THREE dialogue focused skills? You cna't.

Dumbo.


"Well...it makes Volourn look balanced."

Shagnak, and the funny thing is, I'm not even trying to be balance. I loev this game and the complaints I have shared I shared because I don't make things up. Even if it's a game I like; if I see a part of it that i don't; I will say what it is.

 

[space captain]

dumbo? ok, kid... maybe once you get a little older you will realize that insults dont replace intelligent discourse... neither does pure emotion

dunno where to check hours - id say i did about 25-28 total... and I took my sweet ass time doing every quest i could, redoing some and so on

just remember that after you get to chapter 4, the entire rest of the game is about as long as chapter 1

 

[Volourn]

"maybe once you get a little older you will realize that insults dont replace intelligent discourse... neither does pure emotion"

if insulting someone and have pure emotion makes one a kid I guess that make you... what do they say? .. Oh yeah, a baby.

Before trying to be funny, look at your posts. They're stradled with insults and emotion.


R00fles!