:grabspopcorn:

[Suchy]

 

[Clockwork Knight]

I piss on your jenova scorn

 

[Reject_666_6]

So has Square-Enix responded to this yet or were two nukes not enough to deliver some drama?

 

[Clockwork Knight]

Square Enix is ultimately run by japs

chance of them giving a shit to gaijin babble = 0%

 

[Secretninja]

FF12 combat stopped being tedious once you got a zodiac spear. heal health<80%, self cast berserk on basch and you could breeze through pretty much anything except the hardest bounties and summons.

Balthier may have dressed like a fag and associated with a she-bunny, but he was a good character. Basch was also a good character, and he dressed slightly less faggy. The only character from any of the FF games that is even on the same level as them is Auron from ffx.

 

[I.C. Wiener]

FFX sucked dick

FF12 had a lot of good points, the art style was almost palatable, the storyline was generic but not too stupid, the gameplay was too grindy and automated, but overall it was the best thing they've made since FF Tactics... too bad it was the last thing Squenix will ever make that isn't total shit. The first director they had (forgot his name, he also made FF Tactics and Ogre Battle) was the last sane man at the company and S-E's bullshit basically forced him to resign. Interesting story.

 

[Xi]

Does it mean that rogue-likes and other dungeon crawlers aren't RPGs because they lack hot lesbian alien sex? In the end, it's game mechanics that decide what is an RPG and what isn't. Character skill over player skill = RPG. Player skill over character skill = not RPG. In the latter case, it doesn't matter how many choices the game allows you to make. It may be an excellent game with heavily branching narrative, but it won't be an RPG.

Rogue-likes are, rogue-likes. Why should we lump everything within a specific category? Oh yeah, it's a sub-genre. Cool!

I use no skill when watching a movie, thus a movie is an RPG. I get it now.

 

[Fat Dragon]

Balthier may have dressed like a fag and associated with a she-bunny, but he was a good character.

Yeah, I agree. I wasn't implying he was a poor character like Vaan was, just that his appearance was just as bad as most other chars in game. He was actually pretty entertaining and had a great voice actor. It was also nice that, unlike most other rpg chars with his problem, he didn't develop any annoying daddy issues to constantly cry over about his psycho dad. He handles it like a man, even when Dr. Cid pretty much says "fuck you" right to his face before dying.

Still wish Basch had remained as the main protagonist. He had a lot in common with Ramza from FF Tactics, I think they could have made a good story with him in the focus.

 

[Xi]

A "game" is a matter of choice. An RPG is a game that involves player choices, where the character resolves the outcome. This is a grey area, of course, because some players enjoy slight freedoms over the character's ability to succeed at a task. This might be a slight freedom in combat tactics, character building, gear selection, choice alliances, maneuvering through the game, etc. Again, this modicum of freedom between player and character abilities is the "game."

Final Fantasy 13 removes so much of the "game" element, that it's practically something else entirely. I think this is why it makes sense to question whether FF13 is an RPG or not. It could be, quite honestly, not even a game at all. Or, like I've seen others write, a very shitty game parading as an RPG.

Will you graze with the wolf dressed in sheep's clothings? We warned you!

Edit:

This isn't to say that FF13 is not enjoyable. It's just that, for whatever reason one might find it enjoyable, can these same people still claim that it was the "game" (choices) they enjoyed? It's quite possible that they enjoyed it for other reasons.

Would it make sense to attribute your own liking of baseball to some aspect of the sport of football, for instance?

"I like baseball because it's a great football."

"I like FF13 because it is a great RPG."

 

[Morkar Left]

Besides char-development another big criteria for a RPG is the exploration. A rpg without exploration just isn´t a rpg. Roguelikes are rpgs because the player can´t predict what´s coming next - what´s behind the door, is the encounter far out my league, what treasure is there etc. Even if it´s just "one" dungeon that always leads downstairs the player never really knows what he may find there because it is randomly generated.

Storydriven RPGs are usually - at least nowadays - lacking very much in the exploration department but can substitute this by delivering an unpredictable Story with lots of decisions the pc can choose and altering the outcome of the story (yeah c&c here we are).

The ideal rpg has both of this together with a proper rulesystem/gameplaymechanic and a good interface and is mostly bugfree.

Bioware has at least -some- exploration, even if very limited (the typical 4 main areas, now levelscaling?) and some choices (with sometimes even mild consequences).
So when it comes to rpg-design they are still miles ahead of FF. But they seem to work to equalize this... but I agree with them that the latest FF is not a RPG.

 

[Sarvis]

Character skill over player skill = RPG. Player skill over character skill = not RPG. In the latter case, it doesn't matter how many choices the game allows you to make. It may be an excellent game with heavily branching narrative, but it won't be an RPG.

Wow... it's like I live on in spirit!

 

[KalosKagathos]

I use no skill when watching a movie, thus a movie is an RPG. I get it now.

Stop being silly. Movies completely lack interactivity, therefore they are not games of any genre.

A "game" is a matter of choice. An RPG is a game that involves player choices, where the character resolves the outcome. This is a grey area, of course, because some players enjoy slight freedoms over the character's ability to succeed at a task. This might be a slight freedom in combat tactics, character building, gear selection, choice alliances, maneuvering through the game, etc. Again, this modicum of freedom between player and character abilities is the "game."

Final Fantasy 13 removes so much of the "game" element, that it's practically something else entirely. I think this is why it makes sense to question whether FF13 is an RPG or not. It could be, quite honestly, not even a game at all. Or, like I've seen others write, a very shitty game parading as an RPG.

Wait, are you saying that FFXIII offers no choice in character building, combat tactics, gear selection? Because it certainly does.

This isn't to say that FF13 is not enjoyable.

But it isn't enjoyable. It's crap. However, being a bad representative of a genre doesn't prevent a game from being a part of said genre. You might as well argue that Daikatana is not an FPS.

 

[Sarvis]

You might as well argue that Daikatana is not an FPS.

This is the Codex. If Daikatana had choices & consequences they would argue it's an RPG.

 

[Xi]

With such a definition, Final Fantasy is more of an RPG than Fallout. Think about it. Does that sound right? You're saying that it's more of an RPG so long as the character resolves outcomes. This would translate to tactics, gear, affiliation, dialog choice, etc. Your definition only covers combat prowess. The character must be 100% the determiner in combat prowess and maybe simple actions like lock picking. That's weak. I agree though, it's part of the definition, yet, there's still more too it. This is what i was trying to make you see, and yet I have failed. I only blame myself.

 

[Black]

You might as well argue that Daikatana is not an FPS.

This is the Codex. If Daikatana had choices & consequences they would argue it's an RPG.

If it was made today it'd be called an ARPG by the Codex.

 

[KalosKagathos]

With such a definition, Final Fantasy is more of an RPG than Fallout.

Not really, unless you're talking about Fallout 3.

Think about it. Does that sound right? You're saying that it's more of an RPG so long as the character resolves outcomes.

When did Fallout become a piece of dumbed down shit that takes player skill into account?

 

[Overweight Manatee]

My guess is that Ashe was going to be the main character of FF12, but after all the shit they took for having a female lead in X-2 they hastily created Vaan because that's what sold all their other games. Pretty much every bit of the story line works out if you had Ashe instead of Vaan in it with minor dialog changes. The other reason to have him there is so that all the smart characters can explain politics to him (and the player, of course).

All the characters in FF12 were pretty good. Certainly none that make me rage, though Fran gets close with her distorted nasal voice. It really would be better if they went the FF6 route and completely separated the character from the player, letting them choose who was the leader and playing both sections whenever characters split up. I suppose there were just too few characters and they didn't want to take the chance that players wouldn't like one, or just wouldn't have them leveled (although the license point system pretty much makes everyone powerful). Or maybe they were just stupid.

BTW: International zodiac edition of FF12 (jap version special edition) is much better, there is a translation patch available.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

Main character was supposed to be Basch. I remember there was a poll, and jap fans told square they wouldn't want to play as a guy on his thirties.

 

[Overweight Manatee]

Main character was supposed to be Basch. I remember there was a poll, and jap fans told square they wouldn't want to play as a guy on his thirties.

The fact that fans said they wouldn't want to play Basch doesn't mean the main character was Basch. Did you hear something from square directly or am I misinterperating what you are saying? It would seem that if they switched from Vaan to Basch they would totally have to rewrite the first half of the game.

 

[Felix]

Square's fans are bunch of fags....I know it's Captain Obvious but I like to say it.

 

[GarfunkeL]

Fucking jap culture. And yes, I'd say it was age before gender, as Terra was most like a main character FF6 and it never got any serious backslash for that.

fuck, I should really continue that LP.

 

[Overweight Manatee]

IIRC, Cecil was pretty old in FF4. I think the problem is that Square just embraced the faggotry with its post-FF6 fanbase. The Decline from FF FF6->7 and later FF's is on par with Fallout 3.

 

[FeelTheRads]

http://www.mobygames.com/game/xbox360/f ... Id,430442/

Who the hell likes these characters? Especially that fag... the second one. The one that screams "LOOK AT ME IM A DOUCHEBAG SURFER AND LIKE TO TAKE IT UP THE BUM".

Christ.

 

[circ]

None of them looks like Shadow or Setzer. Why even bother. And I'm not even sure if any of the characters are female even.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

Main character was supposed to be Basch. I remember there was a poll, and jap fans told square they wouldn't want to play as a guy on his thirties.

The fact that fans said they wouldn't want to play Basch doesn't mean the main character was Basch. Did you hear something from square directly or am I misinterperating what you are saying? It would seem that if they switched from Vaan to Basch they would totally have to rewrite the first half of the game.

They were asking fans what would they think about playing as this older guy (with the story already planned). Fans expresssed dislike and they created Vaan. Basch didn't get scrapped because, as the original main character, the story depended too much on him. That's why the story still follows him and Ashe, and Vaan feels like a tagalong - because he is one.

Which is actually nice, since it's not the end of the world (to me, at least, but the fans don't seem to agree) to not be in the spotlight for once.

Fakedit:

Basch was initially meant to be the main character of the story, but the focus was eventually shifted to Vaan and Penelo when the two characters were created later in development.[32] The development team explained that their previous game, Vagrant Story, which featured a "strong man in his prime" as the protagonist had been unsuccessful and unpopular; the change regarding Final Fantasy XII from a "big and tough" protagonist to a more effeminate one was thus decided after targeting demographics were considered.

:evil:

[Vaan was] originally conceived as more "rugged", Vaan was changed during development of the game to be more effeminate after "taking into consideration the target demographic". With the casting of dorama (Japanese television drama) actor Kouhei Takeda for the voice acting and motion capture, however, Vaan became a little less feminine and more "active, upbeat bright and positive" than planned. He was designed by character designer Akihiko Yoshida to look Asian"

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Apparently having a fucktarded audience isn't an exclusively western problem