Is DA:O a hardcore RPG?

[Clockwork Knight]

So you're saying that story-driven RPGs can't be hardcore?

Poor logic, girl.

wait, Drog is defending Arcanum now? What is this I don't even

 

[Volourn]

"hurr durr darkspawn

There're elves, girlfriend."

Liar. Darkspawn are not orcs.

 

[Fomorian]

No they're just so incredibly similar as to be interchangeable.

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

Orks can be talked to.

 

[Black Cat]

@ Rageing Atheist

Warning! Warning! Black Cat going into emo emo neko chan modo in three... two... one...

Sure, but then i'm kind of nihilistic and believe there is really no point to anything other than finding it enjoyable. So in the end there isn't really any diference as long as you enjoy developing that skill, and you always get the benefit of... how were they called in Diablo II? Synergies? Those thingies. Like a +5% bonus at not getting crushed by a bus because all those long twenty six hours days spent dodging colorful bullets made your reflexes smooth as silk. Sure, being able to solve all of Myst IV's and Schizm's puzzles by yourself is not going to translate into marketable skills, but being able to think outside the box and analyze information in unusual ways and unconvetional ways until you hit the right pattern is a useful skill to develop in and out of itself, for your own use if nothing else, and the same can be said of hard eye coordination or any other thing, even the simple attitude of being always trying to get impossibly good at brutal stuff and then going to search something even more stupidly hard to try your hand at mastering.

I mean, what good does for you getting better at something in a, to give it a name, real life skill instead of a, to give it another totally random name, gaming skill when you are, say, going to get the very same ending everyone else does? Real life is not for storyfags LARPers but for people who enjoys the gameplay in and out of itself. LOL, don't take that last comment seriously. But by that measure is of equal worth being a great solitaire player than being a great philosopher, as long as the net gain for you in pleasure is equal.

And as i said before, i don't think trying to get better at games is escapist as long as it is divorced from the escaping itself. Is becoming good at chess escapism? Is becoming a good skater escapism? Is being good at dancing and clubbing escapism? Is becoming a good swimmer escapist? Sure, it can be useful in a situation you are probably never going to be in, but sure, so can having reflexes so silky and reaction times so smooth they are neko neko like. What makes something escapist or not is the intention, if conscious, and motivation, if not, behind it. Like, i have been doing that swiming thingie since i have memory and i supose that will make me eligible for thirty extra minutes of floating in the middle of nowhere before the depths claim my totally kawaii self, and i guess it can help get guys or something if they are into that kind of fetish stuff, but regardless of that, if i were doing that to focus on something other than a troubling reality and take it away from my attention then it would be escapism. In the same way if you want to solve a puzzle cube just because the challenge is fun, what's escapist about it?

People does lots of real world thingies to escape a reality they don't like or to escape thought patterns they fear. They are escaping, regardless of what they obtain by so doing it. Most people i know actually goes and obtains most of the crap they do because they don't know what the fuck they want so they just try to find anything to keep going while not thinking too much about it.

Uhm... What was i answering to, again? *stream of consciousness totally sucks* Let me check.

Yay, sure, here it is. You see, i think there is a kind of language problem in here. Or, like, something, because while i wouldn't consider what you mention in passing as hardcore gaming (LOLOLOL reading books about in game lore when i could be slaughtering the legions of hell for XP and loot? OMG NOOBTARD!) i wouldn't either consider it as escapism. I don't think, for example, fantasy literature is escapism in itself, as many do. I think someone who reads fantasy literature because in the real world he's a, as we say here, zero to the left, is straight out escapism. It is a point of motivation and intention, not the action itself. The action lacks value in and out of itself, is an empty and mechanical thingie.

If you read fantasy literature because it's fun, sure, whatever. That does not make you a hardcore bibliophile, though. In the same way that playing a game that's nothing but a vehicle for storytelling is something evil or wrong in itself. If you find it fun, go for it, and as a matter of fact if Cosmology of Kyoto were a guy instead of a game i would be a really mean girl with it. That doesn't make you an elite hardcore gaming, though, nor makes that particular game a hardcore one, in the same way playing chess with your friends for fun doesn't turn you into a worldwide master of all things chessy whose maneuvers will be studied for generations to come.

And, like, bloody Jesus on his flying octopus aspect, when did i went all faux emogothika pseudophilosopher? D: I'm getting old, i'm getting. I'm starting to sound like my bloody ex, i am. That can only mean another bout of emotional breakdowns and i'm the voice of the dark mother, i'm the will that animates the great wheel delussions is behind the corner, it is. ToT



@ Volourn

"Liar. Darkspawn are not orcs."

Some time ago i was giving my totally not pirated copy of Dragon Age a test run, and my boyfriend came in just as i was defeating the big ogre thing atop the tower and lighting the signaling fire. So i ask him to wait for a moment or two while the cinematic plays so i can save later before turning the game off. Then the king goes all for ferelden and the evil barkspawn appear, and then my boyfriend, who really likes fantasy literature and stuff but is not really into gaming so he knew totally not what the bleep dragon age was, raises an eyebrow and says those are the worst fed orcs ever or something to that effect.

So i was, like, no, they are the barkspawn. And i look for the cinematic on youtube, send the link to several of my non gamer but yes fantasy friends, and ask what are they seeing in there. orcs killing guys was the one and only answer. So, really, sure, they are not orcs because they are the barkspawn, but really, that just some random fluff thrown around the orcs to make it not really orcs, and an orc by any other name...

 

[Redshirt #42]

^Why would anyone read the shit in this thread is really beyond me.

Well, is it?

Nope.

 

[Konjad]

^Why would anyone read the shit in this thread is really beyond me.

I did

 

[1eyedking]

DA:O has better camera than AP

In Soviet Ukraine, DA:O is better than AP.

 

[Konjad]

Is Skyway from soviet part of Ukraine?

 

[ghostdog]

Drog is one of the few people who can successfully troll themselves.

It would be even more awesome if he also logged in with his old account and snapped back at his alt about how DAO is absolute shit compared to Arcanum, FFS.

 

[Volourn]

"No they're just so incredibly similar as to be interchangeable."

No. Since when are ogres orcs? Since when are dragons orcs? Since when are broodmothers orcs?

FFS People are fuckin' dumb.

Darkspawn are not orcs. Now, people could make ana rgument that certain darkspawn suspecies have orcish features but darkspawn are NOT orcs.

 

[Jaesun]

"No they're just so incredibly similar as to be interchangeable."

No. Since when are ogres orcs? Since when are dragons orcs? Since when are broodmothers orcs?

FFS People are fuckin' dumb.

Darkspawn are not orcs. Now, people could make ana rgument that certain darkspawn suspecies have orcish features but darkspawn are NOT orcs.

EXACTLY! FFS you people r a dumb.

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

Do darkspawn talk?

 

[Serious_Business]

thinges like like like like stuff

Fucking christ, I wish you'd try to write in an intelligible manner. Normally I wouldn't answer this but the words 'escapism' and 'nihilism' were said so I have to say something, because I am an elite pseudo philosopher

If I'm not mistaken, you could have resumed all your overdrawn post by one phrase : "Everything is escapism anyway because we're all gonna die and all we do is to avoid this truth". Cue "emo music" and gothic eyeliner as one would say, but this is pretty much a problem that our century hasn't really resolved yet, as far as I can tell. Pascal said it the first a good 300 years before and his solution was God, then we decided that was a stupid idea because we have our magical science and Reason that will one day answer all our problems, and then Hitler happened, and then RPG Codex happened too.

You seem to be saying some things are not escapism, but I can't figure out what your criterias are from all that babbling. It'd be a bold statement. If you're truly nihilistic, then really having a successful career and a happy family are not different then being drunk in a basement playing video games, if both things make you happy and content. Which is bullshit. Nihilism means lives of insect aren't different then the lives of men. And nihilism is of course for fat people who can't be bothered. Faggots, in other words. I know the feeling but it needs to be transcended, and by this I mean God. Fuck it

I wish someone smart would pick up what I'm saying here but this isn't the right forum for that. As far as I know there's no real philosophical solution to this problem, it's going to be a nuanced, vague, irrational thing that you have to hold on to... basically, God. But you can't say that because that would make you sound obscurantist and irrational, but then reason is overrated when it comes to the real problems. But then saying that is definitively opening myself to the more juicy anti-theist arguments out there, which ironically would mostly stem from people who are theists but actually don't know about it, it's just that their religion is science or history or some other crap

As far as rpgs go, I think they're evil escapism, if only because my argument would be that they don't allow you to deploy your potential and test yourself (IN BATTLE OF COURSE). That doesn't really confront the nihilistic argument but then nothing does, that's the point. However I still play them way too much to really believe in what I'm saying. The point would be that at least I know I'm escaping "reality", contrary to someone who is 'active' and 'productive' and "facing reality" when all he's doing is tryng to bury their consciousness under projects that help them forget about themselves. Cue existentialist writers here. The problem with this crap is that you get people like Volourn who essentially have the same views as I do, except that they don't have any shred of culture or willingness to deploy efforts and learn. And really, they're right : why bother? Nothing matters, enjoy yourself, enjoy your individualism, enjoy a crass animal life while it lasts, we're all monkeys anyway. Sure it's "honest" and "true to reality" but I'm still disgusted.

This is bullshit really and you can't stay there, you have to move on, in the name of what I don't know, probably some buried greco-christian values that there's in our culture and forces us to value life and love and beauty and sacrifice or some bullshit, or really just will to power, but fuck it the point is to stop thinking and start doing, but that's not easy. I wish I could say this is just because I have a rich existence as a student in a Western country that allows me to over-think things while not having to bury myself in work like any sensible and responsible citizen, and that's probably the case, and yeah a lot of shitheads would tell me just that, you know the serious and important people who don't have time to bother about silly things like the meaning of existence, and they'd be partly right. But it's really bullshit because everyone needs something to do, not having something to do is what everyone wants but is also what everyone avoids like hell, it's a vicious circle.

 

[Murk]

Bro what the fuck happened to you? This is like the 4th time you've posted something that isn't just pissing on some metaphysical strawman of the Codex.

 

[SCO]

This is why i love coming here.

 

[Sceptic]

Drog is one of the few people who can successfully troll themselves.

He managed to troll a number of other people on here (look at some of the walls of text in this thread) so I'd say he was pretty successful. Again.

 

[Xi]

"So you're saying that story-driven RPGs can't be hardcore?"

If we are talking games then you need to be focused on challenging and complex gameplay to be hardcore. You can be hardcore and still have a good story, but to be hardcore story can't be the focus of the experience as that would make gameplay secondary and thus would subject its design to the needs of story instead of the other way around, using story just as a way to add mood and atmosphere and motivation to what was added for nothing but gameplay reasons, and that leaves story-driven games out the question, yes.

Unless the story element is interactive with branching outcomes. Then the story becomes a gameplay element.

 

[Hory]

While most video games satisfy the definition of escapism (mental immersion into an imaginary world), they are (or rather, could and should be) a more respectable form than all of the traditional ones. They can even be a more laudable activity than the activities of the average person. That is because escapism is not what is intrinsically bad or good - it's passivity which is intrinsically bad by being the opposition of life (which most people consider intrinsically good). But people are oblivious to the passivity of their repetitive working, small-talking, television watching, sun-bathing ways.

Life is the opportunity to act in a suite of circumstances. Games can simulate the process of living rather than just the process of sensing or learning. Games present original circumstances that you can act in. Games are a celebration of life. There's nothing intrinsically good in interacting with non-virtual entities. I get more from conversing with a well written character than with a real idiot (as most people are) or with somebody who I've already discussed all there is to discuss with (as most people do). So, yes, I'd rather interact with the products of an artist than the products of society.

Truth is that reality is limiting. You are a slave to whatever configuration the planet is in. There isn't that much of a variation between situations and there aren't that many ways to affirm your livelihood. Extreme activities are interesting but they're often life-threatening, which makes it a paradox to engage in them for the sake of being fully alive (since you risk accomplishing the opposite). But games let you live as a secret spy. They let you be a star ship captain. They let you use magic. Problem is that they do it in a very shallow way. Too much combat for the sake of combat yet without any challenge. Too many characters for the sake of drama yet without any intelligence. But video games are something new, much may change.

 

[Black Cat]

@ Serious_Business

"Fucking christ, I wish you'd try to write in an intelligible manner."

I'm trying, and i'm actually doing much better now. It reads almost human, too!

"If I'm not mistaken, you could have resumed all your overdrawn post by one phrase : "Everything is escapism anyway because we're all gonna die and all we do is to avoid this truth". Cue "emo music" and gothic eyeliner as one would say."

You have amazing powers of synthesis, yes. I was trying to point that no matter what we do the ending is always the same, so there is nothing truly important or meaningful, and just having fun or doing something you like is not less worthy than pushing human thought and civilization forward since, eventually, human thought and civilization too will become extinguished, and in any case you will be feeding the wormies long before it bears any fruit so the entire realm of results lies outside your existence. The trouble, then, is that why to do anything at all, if pleasure also ends and thus it is no less escapist to embrace pleasure than to embrace any other thing that eases either the pain or the nothingness.

"You seem to be saying some things are not escapism, but I can't figure out what your criterias are from all that babbling."

Yes, it is a flaw i noticed while reading your post. Even embracing Nihilism or going and doing things just for the challenge while forcing you to never to escape yourself or the realizations or the emptyness is a form of escapism through surrendering to what you can't change, accepting being consumed by the nothing and it's void so its shadow stops looking so menacing and you become familiar with it.

The criteria was that as long as you were never trying to forget everything was worth crap and there was no meaning in anything you were not really escaping, which sounds true at first but fails in the end. So that puts quite a dent on my argument for hardcore gaming and a competitive lifestyle as not being escapism, crap.



In any case you actually have a pretty concise and articulate grasp of the situation and the patterns of thought around it, and that post was a pleasure to read, and obviously you have thought about it much longer and deeply than the Black Neko. I am pretty impressed, and I wonder how the fuck it was you ended up in the Codex. You seem like a cool guy, even.



And just for the anecdote and the fun...

"Cue "emo music" and gothic eyeliner as one would say"

That was me until my boyfriend decided to kick the stupid out of me, almost literally. T_T



@ Xi

"Unless the story element is interactive with branching outcomes. Then the story becomes a gameplay element."

Sure, it does. As long as you can win, you can lose, and you can make choices leading to one, the other, or both it can be understood as a game, but then we must not talk only about the storytelling but about the gameplay, in this case how many diferent paths and routes and options we get, and how reactive the storyline is.

In some other thread i compared Devil Survivor's interactive plot to a gameplay element. I, though, think some elements are needed for it to be gameplay instead of just a toy, like being able to lose and it being challenging to not do so. I think challenge and conditions leading to defeat are needed for something to be a game, though many do not seem to share my enlightened vision. The lack of fluffy tails and ears bans them from Buddahood.

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

Needs moar thingies and stuffies and nyas.

 

[Shannow]

"No they're just so incredibly similar as to be interchangeable."

No. Since when are ogres orcs? Since when are dragons orcs? Since when are broodmothers orcs?

FFS People are fuckin' dumb.

Darkspawn are not orcs. Now, people could make ana rgument that certain darkspawn suspecies have orcish features but darkspawn are NOT orcs.

So you are saying that:
DA dragons/archdemons = Tolkien dragons
DA ogres = Tolkien trolls
DA hurlocks = Tolkien orcs (in this case even with all the lore of starting out as corrupted individuals of the other races)
DA grenlocks = Tolkien goblins

Well, I'd have to agree. Yet another instance where Volly wins the thread /decline

 

[MetalCraze]

DA can't be a hardcore RPG because trader NPCs don't rob you like they do in Fallout

 

[gothfox]

Do darkspawn talk?

Well there was this play-as-darkspawn DLC from Bioware. Although if you had to hurr and durr through it I wouldn't be surprised. After all, VO costs money.

 

[Multi-headed Cow]

I think there is a talking darkspawn in the expansion, and his ability to talk was special. Even the archdemon just went hurr durr IIRC.

 

[Konjad]

Do darkspawn talk?

Well there was this play-as-darkspawn DLC from Bioware. Although if you had to hurr and durr through it

... that would be the best Bioware's dialogue since a looong time.

 

[OccupatedVoid]

I don't think Gaider and crew were reading Tolkien again when making DA. I think they started playing 40k, instead of fully developing their game, and taking ideas from it. Once a list of all the 'badass' stuff was made, Gaider integrated the ideas into the Standard Bioware Story Formula (established circa 1999). Too bad they ruined them all with the Borespawn, the Archboss, and weak demons.

 

[Donkey Balls]

Well, the darkspawn were supposed to be a generic threat, acting only as a plot device/setting mechanic. This is actually pretty similar to what Brian Mitsoda is doing with ZRPG, the zombies there are only "the threat", the actual meat of the game is how the people and the game world react to them.

And what was wrong with the demons? The Sloth Demon in the Circle Tower, the several Desire Demons (who actually weren't a succubus rehash as some might think when looking at screenshots), the Rage Demons summoned by the Blood Mages, etc were p. cool and all had their own agendas. Also, remember that episode with an abandoned camp in the forest? That was cool.