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Avellone on Alpha Protocol

Silellak

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hoochimama said:
Not obsidian that had an idea for a real world spy game and then shopped it around?.
This was always my impression too; supported by Avellone himself, no less:
Destructoid: Alpha Protocol, from the looks of things, is a dyed-in-the-wool spy game, complete with gadgets, intrigue, and cheeky sexual liaisons. What drove the decision to make a spy-themed RPG, and has it been more challenging to create a roleplaying game around spies rather than aliens or knights, as is the usual case?

Avellone: The idea came from our CEO, Feargus Urquhart, and our tech director, Chris Jones. Both of them wanted to do an espionage shooter-style role-playing game, and the team took those parameters, and then carried the vision into the creation of the Alpha Protocol you're seeing trailers for now. We ended up adding some more visually compelling elements to the initial direction (Alpha Protocol takes place in the real world, but we've embellished the world and its inhabitants to give it more of a Kill Bill style as opposed to "super gritty and realistic"). We also played around with the character and his role in the adventure more, but ultimately, it's not far from the initial proposal.

It's been a great opportunity to stretch our legs in a modern day setting. From a game design standpoint, it's been pretty exciting, and it's nice to present the player with "real life" challenges and conversations that have more context in some respects than fighting dragons or orcish invasions. Don't get us wrong, we love doing fantasy and sci-fi, but sometimes the real world context can be more compelling for the purposes of role-playing.

Source: http://www.destructoid.com/interview-chris-avellone-on-alpha-protocol-142906.phtml
 

FeelTheRads

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I didn't think it left room for doubt.

Ah, well, it must have been the "sales" part that confused me since their games sold fairly well as far as I know.
 

MetalCraze

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@VD:
OK, lost in translation I guess.
Still don't weasel fully out of this. You said that what they say in interviews is totally OK, because of what they are hired to do.
But you wouldn't let Hines or Moulyneux get away with the same.

Did he lie about Oblivion? There you go.
But he said complete truth about how Failout 3 is going to be. There you go.
Shouldn't one good thing excuse him from hundreds of bad? It works for Avellone.

You can't just say that he pulled a Molyneux. You have to explain and possibly even prove (*gasp*), dear.
Try reading your OP.
After so much salivation about how cinematic spy action game with stealth is a cool shit in oh so many interviews he now goes all "we would've made it totally different, screw action, screw stealth, screw cinematics!" - because it flopped. If it was a success we would be hearing a different song now.


How about answering to my other points, dear?


BTW Silellak's quote above tells that "SEGA hired them to do this" is false. It was their own idea. It was their own game. And they failed it, and now start flip-flopping, not evil "money-bags" from SEGA. In fact SEGA let them milk itself for 3 years. So who is whose bitch here now, huh?
 

Fat Dragon

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But he said complete truth about how Failout 3 is going to be.
Hines once said Fallout 3 had over 200 endings, and that Fallout 3 could be completed without killing a single person. So no.
 

MetalCraze

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OK, nitpicker.
But he said complete truth about all other juvenile crap they stuffed into the game, from orks and mininukes to magical healing toilets.

My point was about him not saying all of this because he's a moron himself, but because Zenimax told him to, because he's hired to do exactly that.

And as it appears all that Avellone said in the hype was because he himself wanted to say it.
 

MetalCraze

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Oh please. Did you read the post where it all started? I'm not defending him, I'm just saying that there shouldn't be double standards if another developer did some good writing 11 years ago.
 

Drakron

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MetalCraze said:
Oh please. Did you read the post where it all started? I'm not defending him, I'm just saying that there shouldn't be double standards if another developer did some good writing 11 years ago.

The "No Free Rides" does not apply to Avellone in there in case you did not realized it.

He always get it because of PS:T no matter what did he after, yes its double standards but did you really expected people to stick to what they preach?

Look at VD excusing Obsidian and shifting the blame to Sega, even if Sega could have part of the blame does not change the fact Alpha Protocol was a game Obsidian wanted to do and Sega only come into the picture when they were looking for a publisher. The whole notion Sega "commissioned" it is simply FALSE and VD should know that.
 

themadhatter114

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MetalCraze said:
I like how he uses "real world" and "screw the realism" (AP had lots of it oh yeah) in relation to a game where absolutely unbelievable, childish anime characters run mobs and you use magical spells to go through the game.

Overall I like how he flip flops and suddenly the game isn't so superawesome as he was hyping it to be and he would totally make it different - yeeeeeeeeeaaaaah

We had little to no time to redo anims, redo character models, redo locations from previous iterations, so we did what we could with what he had, and it made sense to us for the time frame

3 years man. It was 3 years. And you were just redoing and scrapping stuff again and again? And didn't even set a release date for studio, where you are one of the owners, at least for reference?

In less than 3 years Troika didn't just steal ideas from Kojima and Bioware - instead they created the new huge setting from the ground up with a complex character system and they didn't even have a team at first since they left BIS (Arcanum). Fallout took 2 years with Cain designing it alone in '95
Count how many games with unique, even revolutionary, gameplay LGS did within 3 years time frame.
What about Sir-Tech?

And all Obsidian did - is a bunch of linear corridors and random anime characters and it still was not enough time?

Obsidian is indeed doomed to mediocrity with such moronic management. "Or worse" sounds like the best outcome for the studio.

Perhaps you didn't read. Avellone entered the project halfway through the development cycle. They had a specific date they needed to finish the game by, because they were not told ahead of time that the game would be delayed by Sega. If they didn't feel like they had time to redo locations based on the given timeframe, by the time the delay was announced it would have been too late to get started, anyway.
 

Vault Dweller

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MetalCraze said:
@VD:
OK, lost in translation I guess.
Still don't weasel fully out of this. You said that what they say in interviews is totally OK, because of what they are hired to do.
But you wouldn't let Hines or Moulyneux get away with the same.
Not sure I understand you, so let's go step by step.

First, Molyneax, Hines, and Bioware are guilty of overhyping their games and exaggerating the features greatly, to the point where it's hard to call their PR campaigns anything other than blatant lies and false advertisement.

People have issues with that for obvious reasons.

Second, Obsidian's campaign was relatively low-key. I don't recall any hype there. Saying that the game is cinematic and like Kill Bill aren't examples of hyping. Therefore, most people don't have issues with MCA stating the obvious - that the game is cinematic, actiony, and over-the-top in a Kill Bill way.

But he said complete truth about how Failout 3 is going to be. There you go.
There I go what? Yes, they didn't make shit up about Fallout 3 and nobody complained about it. They lied about Oblivion and people complained. Where do you see a problem?

Shouldn't one good thing excuse him from hundreds of bad? It works for Avellone.
I don't recall Avellone lying openly. Even now he's very straight forward about the game, unlike Bethesda who still doesn't see a problem neither with the Oblivion design nor making shit up.

After so much salivation about how cinematic spy action game with stealth is a cool shit in oh so many interviews he now goes all "we would've made it totally different, screw action, screw stealth, screw cinematics!" - because it flopped. If it was a success we would be hearing a different song now.
Searching the Codex archive:

Type - interview
Game - Alpha Protocol
Words - cinematic
News listing - 0 newsposts found

They really did overdo the "oh it's so cinematic you gonna love it" hype, didn't they?
 

Vault Dweller

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Drakron said:
Look at VD excusing Obsidian and shifting the blame to Sega...
I'm not. As I said earlier in this thread, "I'm not suggesting to blame it all on publishers, but ignoring the publishers involvement and influence on the design process (and asking why Obsidian didn't make a game like Arcanum, like you did) is at very least naive."

Obsidian could and should have made a better game. Something like Bloodlines - a game developed under similar circumstances - would have been nice.

The whole notion Sega "commissioned" it is simply FALSE and VD should know that.
Why should I know that? Anyway, Sega did not commission it and the game was Obsidian's idea. I was wrong.
 

MetalCraze

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I just did a search in google through "avellone interview cinematic" and apart from finding that 24 quote on ITS...

I also think the engine wasn’t well-suited to doing cut-scenes, and our thematic direction of trying to introduce a cinematic experience may not have been a wise choice overall.
It's a post-release KotOR2 interview
He's been doing this shit for 6 years now :lol:

( http://www.eucantina.net/interviews/chris-avellone )

Somehow a not so well-suited engine wasn't a problem in KotOR1 for Bioware, which game didn't fail commercially (it's not because of bugs, cut content and Feargus doing a "slam-dunk" with it - no it's all engine's fault)

Vault Dweller said:
First, Molyneax, Hines, and Bioware are guilty of overhyping their games and exaggerating the features greatly, to the point where it's hard to call their PR campaigns anything other than blatant lies and false advertisement.
No objections on Moulyneux and partly on Hines here. But you shouldn't have brought Bioware in. Their "mature" is just as bad as "tasteful sex" and "you can bag all chicks" (which you can't, lies!)

Second, Obsidian's campaign was relatively low-key. I don't recall any hype there. Saying that the game is cinematic and like Kill Bill aren't examples of hyping. Therefore, most people don't have issues with MCA stating the obvious - that the game is cinematic, actiony, and over-the-top in a Kill Bill way.
Oh here we go again. Obsidian was talking like all of this is a totally good thing. We are discussing how they now pull a 180 on this.
Besides did you know that you can complete AP without killing anyone?

I don't recall Avellone lying openly. Even now he's very straight forward about the game
No sorry man. Now he's very straight forward about the game. Why couldn't he say the same things he says now before they've released the game? That trying to compete with shooters and stealth games was a bad idea? That "cinematic" style was a bad idea?

Avellone can do no wrong, is he? :lol:

unlike Bethesda who still doesn't see a problem neither with the Oblivion design nor making shit up.
I'm pretty sure Bethesda criticized Oblivion before Failout 3 release.

Vault Dweller said:
Why should I know that?
Well so far you've been telling tales about how Obsidian is a publisher's bitch, how they didn't have a choice and saying in the matter and how things truly work so you know how shit's going down, no?
 

Mangoose

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Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity
Oh here we go again. Obsidian was talking like all of this is a totally good thing. We are discussing how they now pull a 180 on this.
I don't think MCA is pulling a 180 on this. My interpretation is that he says the end implementation of the game is good, BUT if they went with different design premises the implementation would have turned out better.

I thnk Obsidian's problem, besides horrible management, is that they try to "innovate" too much. And then it turns out they are not good enough on the coding aspect, and/or that their ideas are just not feasible, so we end up with a bunch of ideas that are badly implemented, and thus none of the gameplay is as solid as its similar contemporaries. The solution? Maybe just copy the mechanics from a solid, well-built game, and innovate one aspect of the game.

If AP copied the stealth gameplay from Splinter Cell and then copied the skill implementation of Deus Ex, and then devoted the rest of their time and effort into the "cinematic" experience, the game might actually be pretty good. Instead they tried to do everything differently, for no good reason whatsoever, and thus we come up with this mess only saved by decent writing.
 

themadhatter114

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MetalCraze said:
I just did a search in google through "avellone interview cinematic" and apart from finding that 24 quote on ITS...

I also think the engine wasn’t well-suited to doing cut-scenes, and our thematic direction of trying to introduce a cinematic experience may not have been a wise choice overall.
It's a post-release KotOR2 interview
He's been doing this shit for 6 years now :lol:

( http://www.eucantina.net/interviews/chris-avellone )

Somehow a not so well-suited engine wasn't a problem in KotOR1 for Bioware, which game didn't fail commercially (it's not because of bugs, cut content and Feargus doing a "slam-dunk" with it - no it's all engine's fault)

Vault Dweller said:
First, Molyneax, Hines, and Bioware are guilty of overhyping their games and exaggerating the features greatly, to the point where it's hard to call their PR campaigns anything other than blatant lies and false advertisement.
No objections on Moulyneux and partly on Hines here. But you shouldn't have brought Bioware in. Their "mature" is just as bad as "tasteful sex" and "you can bag all chicks" (which you can't, lies!)

All of the bangable chicks can be banged in a single playthrough. That was always the implication.
Second, Obsidian's campaign was relatively low-key. I don't recall any hype there. Saying that the game is cinematic and like Kill Bill aren't examples of hyping. Therefore, most people don't have issues with MCA stating the obvious - that the game is cinematic, actiony, and over-the-top in a Kill Bill way.
Oh here we go again. Obsidian was talking like all of this is a totally good thing. We are discussing how they now pull a 180 on this.
Besides did you know that you can complete AP without killing anyone?

You can. Of course, it's kind of pointless in some instances. There was never any pretense that there would be a non-combat path through the game, but that you'd always have the option to use non-lethal means. And you do.
I don't recall Avellone lying openly. Even now he's very straight forward about the game
No sorry man. Now he's very straight forward about the game. Why couldn't he say the same things he says now before they've released the game? That trying to compete with shooters and stealth games was a bad idea? That "cinematic" style was a bad idea?

Avellone can do no wrong, is he? :lol:

unlike Bethesda who still doesn't see a problem neither with the Oblivion design nor making shit up.
I'm pretty sure Bethesda criticized Oblivion before Failout 3 release.

Vault Dweller said:
Why should I know that?
Well so far you've been telling tales about how Obsidian is a publisher's bitch, how they didn't have a choice and saying in the matter and how things truly work so you know how shit's going down, no?
 

Drakron

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Vault Dweller said:
I'm not. As I said earlier in this thread, "I'm not suggesting to blame it all on publishers, but ignoring the publishers involvement and influence on the design process (and asking why Obsidian didn't make a game like Arcanum, like you did) is at very least naive."

There is no much indication Sega did much interference with the project, even if disgruntled developer did blamed then.

Obsidian could and should have made a better game. Something like Bloodlines - a game developed under similar circumstances - would have been nice.

Similar circumstances?

No, Troika was commissioned to do Bloodlines and were even given the engine to work with.

Bloodlines suffered from being a Source game and a early build at that, the only "good" point was Valve keep delaying Half Life 2 giving more time to work on Bloodlines (if I recall all models were redone because of it) that end up being a "bad" point as its release date was being set by Half Life 2 release.

Alpha Protocol early aspects of development were entirely decided by Obsidian.

Why should I know that? Anyway, Sega did not commission it and the game was Obsidian's idea. I was wrong.

Well is fairly common knowledge that Obsidian created it before they had a publisher for it, also not that uncommon as Dragon Age never had a publisher listed before EA assimilated it and a more clear example with Pandemic Studios many attempts at finding a publisher to Mercenaries 2 also before EA assimilation.

Then again, I am cursed with a good memory for irrelevant information but I do think people that followed up Alpha Protocol development should know it was Obsidian idea from the start, like Dragon Age and Jade Empire was BioWare ideas.
 

Vault Dweller

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MetalCraze said:
So far you gave me no proof that SEGA was meddling with anything in AP - yet you want to demand something from me...
Pretty much. It's much easier to accept that a business that invests a lot of money into a game will be involved and review all materials - as it the industry's custom (setting up milestones and deliverables, reviewing design docs and builds, requesting changes, even changing directions), than to accept that Sega gave money and waited at the door.

Yeah because publishers are lining up to sponsor original games with original gameplay.
Yeah Obsidian could've easily went to work for Stardock...
Fact? Or fiction? Let's let the readers decide.

I've posted many times links to both Avellone and Mitsodas interviews (and a blog) where Avellone was saying that he and Parker found Mitsoda's work to be too boring and too realistic and they wanted to turn it into inconsistent anime flick it ended up to be, while Mitsoda was saying how nothing but timed dialogue left in the final game from what he did. I don't want to repost the same stuff constantly.
I understand, but maybe you can post it again, sorta as a personal favor to me, since I've obviously missed it the first 5,000 times you posted it.

I know what Mitsoda said, so no need to post it, but I'd like to see that "it was too boring so it was me Avellone who has ordered to scrap it" post by Chris.

How about doing the same? Avellone using hype for kids...
Again, show me where.

If they actually had no idea that SEGA would decide to delay the release they should've been working like horses, not redoing stuff, eh?
Do you know the reason for redoing stuff? Why assume that it was done out of boredom?

Yeah poor poor Obsidian. Small contractor, that somehow tries to do 3 games at once. Not because of some unwarranted ambitions.
Because that's the way to survive. You work on one project, you're dead. You know, like Troika.

Finally - this is what you should've said right from the start without dancing all around - the famous "there is nobody else left, we must eat what we get".
Not so fast. There are European developers (Gothic, Risen, Divinity), indie developers, Eastern European developers (Witcher, King's Bounty, Space Rangers 2). The players have some options. A small North American mainstream developer? Not so much.

We have Bethesda - a self-publishing giant, Bioware - merged into an uber company and sold to EA for milking, and tiny Obsidian - a publisher's bitch.
Obsidian is a publisher's bitch. Atari, SEGA, LucasArts, ZeniMax - all fuck them in the ass, there is no justice. I'm going to cry now.
After you're done crying, please explain why the publisher's bitch statement is false.

So why Obsidian, who doesn't know anything about how to make a shooter, agreed to make a shooter?
:it is a mystery:
 

Vault Dweller

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Drakron said:
Obsidian could and should have made a better game. Something like Bloodlines - a game developed under similar circumstances - would have been nice.

Similar circumstances?
Troika didn't have any options at that point and took the job to survive. Both games were designed as linear, hub-based action RPGs with the FPS engine limitations (can't loot in both games, inventory issues with duplicated non-stackable items), camera issues, etc. The focus was on action and characters with VOs. The difference is huge though.
 

Silellak

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Vault Dweller said:
Troika didn't have any options at that point and took the job to survive. Both games were designed as linear, hub-based action RPGs with the FPS engine limitations (can't loot in both games, inventory issues with duplicated non-stackable items), camera issues, etc. The focus was on action and characters with VOs. The difference is huge though.
I don't think the inability to loot enemies in AP has anything to do with limitations of UE3. Can't you loot bodies in ME1?
 

Drakron

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VD: Troika had no further project lined up and so instead of go ahead and hope for things to work out they folded, Obsidian certainly had as they will be doing Dungeon Siege 3.

That is another reason to why you cannot say they are in similar situations.

Silellak: no, ME1 have "auto looting".
 

Silellak

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Drakron said:
VD: Troika had no further project lined up and so instead of go ahead and hope for things to work out they folded, Obsidian certainly had as they will be doing Dungeon Siege 3.

That is another reason to why you cannot say they are in similar situations.

Silellak: no, ME1 have "auto looting".
Ah, right. It's been awhile. That would certainly be an odd engine limitation, but I've heard of weirder things.
 

Fat Dragon

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I know what Mitsoda said, so no need to post it, but I'd like to see that "it was too boring so it was me Avellone who has ordered to scrap it" post by Chris
Think he's referring to this interview.

http://www.edge-online.com/magazine/fea ... pying-game

“Bad guys in suits was too much realism,” explains Parker. “We wanted characters who stood out and were unique.” Avellone sums it up more succinctly: “We’re Kill Bill.”

They never called it boring however, just that realistic wasn't the direction the wanted to go. Also, it's good to remember that, as Brian even said, his work was just an early draft. Most all stories go through various drafts before the writer finally decides on the one he thinks fits best. It's not uncommon to scrap one and not the big "fuck you brian" skyway is trying to make it out to be.
 

MetalCraze

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Pretty much. It's much easier to accept that a business that invests a lot of money into a game will be involved and review all materials - as it the industry's custom (setting up milestones and deliverables, reviewing design docs and builds, requesting changes, even changing directions), than to accept that Sega gave money and waited at the door.
Except they gave money and waited at the door. In fact they are the best publisher Obsidian ever had. They let Obsidian burn away all the money on Aliens for 2 years while doing nothing and they were delaying the release date for AP to let Obsidian finish it, while Obsidian was redoing and redoing stuff. They gave them 3 years to do a linear corridor shooter. More than any other publisher.

Fact? Or fiction? Let's let the readers decide.
If Feargus is such a pro at sucking ZeniMax's cock to get a chance to milk Fallout himself - I'm sure some smug middle-aged guy from Stardock wouldn't be a problem.

I understand, but maybe you can post it again, sorta as a personal favor to me, since I've obviously missed it the first 5,000 times you posted it.

http://www.edge-online.com/magazine/fea ... pying-game
Here's one
“Bad guys in suits was too much realism,” explains Parker. “We wanted characters who stood out and were unique.” Avellone sums it up more succinctly: “We’re Kill Bill.”
Considering what Mitsoda's said about his characters and plot being scrapped at the same time when Avellone took over - add 2+2.

How about doing the same? Avellone using hype for kids...
See in the post above. And that's coming from a guy who was "anti-romance". Before AP, durr hurr.

Do you know the reason for redoing stuff? Why assume that it was done out of boredom?
No it was out of unprofessionalism which is the whole point. They decided to make the game they wanted themselves, yet failed to do even that. That proves they didn't even have a clue what they wanted. First they gave it to Mitsoda, but 1.5 years later went like: oh fuck it let's do it in a different way. No pro works like that.

Because that's the way to survive. You work on one project, you're dead. You know, like Troika.
You are saying it like if Obsidian will go down we'll miss the constant string of neverending mediocrity?

Not so fast. There are European developers (Gothic, Risen, Divinity), indie developers, Eastern European developers (Witcher, King's Bounty, Space Rangers 2). The players have some options. A small North American mainstream developer? Not so much.
Oh please. You already learned that Obsidian had all the choice in the world with AP.

After you're done crying, please explain why the publisher's bitch statement is false.
See points above. Not just in this post. I'm getting tired of repeating the same shit.

:it is a mystery:
To make some moneys - what a mystery.
 

Silellak

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MetalCraze said:
Oh please. You already learned that Obsidian had all the choice in the world with AP.
Your weapon is choice.
:smug:

MetalCraze said:
Because that's the way to survive. You work on one project, you're dead. You know, like Troika.
Our opinions about Obsidian's games aren't really relevant to the point being made. It doesn't matter if we want the company to survive - the point is simply that they're doing what they feel is necessary to survive - and not end up like Troika.
 

MetalCraze

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Mangoose said:
I thnk Obsidian's problem, besides horrible management, is that they try to "innovate" too much. And then it turns out they are not good enough on the coding aspect, and/or that their ideas are just not feasible, so we end up with a bunch of ideas that are badly implemented, and thus none of the gameplay is as solid as its similar contemporaries. The solution? Maybe just copy the mechanics from a solid, well-built game, and innovate one aspect of the game.
The problem is that they do copy stuff from other games. But as it often goes with clones - they fail compared to the original.
When Obsidian tried to do something different instead of just blindly copying somebody else's game - we got MotB - far from great, but way better than any of their games since then.

If AP copied the stealth gameplay from Splinter Cell and then copied the skill implementation of Deus Ex, and then devoted the rest of their time and effort into the "cinematic" experience, the game might actually be pretty good.
Except making a good game wasn't their goal. They copied heavily from Mass Effect and Metal Gear Solid - the two very popular, but bad games. Obviously to get some of big money - and failed.
Much like with all of their previous sequels/ripoffs. A smart developer would get a hint, don't you think? But instead they just work for quantity, not quality - getting more and more licenses to sequels.

Instead they tried to do everything differently, for no good reason whatsoever, and thus we come up with this mess only saved by decent writing.
See above about "differently".
And AP has a very very juvenile writing. Seriously saving a chick you fucked once or half of the Rome?

Silellak said:
Our opinions about Obsidian's games aren't really relevant to the point being made. It doesn't matter if we want the company to survive - the point is simply that they're doing what they feel is necessary to survive and not end up like Troika.

Of course. I don't deny that. But for me, as an end-user, their problems don't matter. The problem is when people go like "oh but they must survive, you must forgive them" and then wonder why we don't have good games anymore.
 

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