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Teh irony! (Dave Gaider on RPGs)

Vault Dweller

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David Gaider said:
I don't know if I like Japanese games anymore... For some reason the graphics, playstyle and storylines just don't do it for me anymore.
You know, I've felt similarly myself. I really liked Final Fantasy VII, and it was one of the first console RPG's that I found I enjoyed.

Since then, however, it seems that Japanese console RPG's have become far more about the cutscenes than about the gameplay. I recently played a console game called "Star Ocean" which was recommended to me, and I was amazed to discover that the entire game was essentially a string of long cutscenes broken up by fights. I wasn't even given any choices... the character I was supposedly playing would make major story decisions on his own and otherwise progress through this plot, and the only time I took control was to guide the party through the world, fighting monsters and trying to find the next cutscene.
I mentioned this issue to the friend who recommended the game to me, and he seemed puzzled by my response. The story was excellent, he said, didn't I appreciate it? As far as he was concerned, Japanese RPG's had stories that were way beyond anything western-style RPG's came up with. I said sure, maybe (if one likes the sort of angsty teen drama that is prevalent in Japanese RPG's, I guess, but that's just taste) but that's what you get when you have a completely predefined protaganist. And it didn't even seem to be much of a game to me... I was reading a book, more or less, and my lack of involvement with the decisions made me entirely disinterested. It was an adventure game with stats and levels, and I wanted an RPG. One that had decisions.

He doesn't need that. He just wants a good story, and if he gets to make a major decision or two it's a bonus. I, meanwhile, need a game where I determine my own fate. I know I'm not playing ME, and in a computer game freedom is a bit of an illusion anyhow, but I want that illusion. When it's done well, it keeps me interested because I'm the one driving the action. Add that to a mature storyline that recognizes that not everyone who plays these games is fifteen years old and still giggles at the sight of a boobie and I'm happy as a clam.
We know exactly what you are talking about, Dave.
 

Chefe

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I feel the games that this esteemed developer has been apart of, and that I have thoroughly enjoyed, have many good decisions and aren't made up of just going from cutscene to cutscene with some fights inbetween.

KOTOR and NWN are so very different from JRPGs. For instance, their cutscenes aren't as pretty.
 

Greatatlantic

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I think Bioware has always made Western or PC styled RPGs, I just never thought they were particularly good at it. You really need to play FF to understand just how different (in a bad way) it is from vrai-RPGs. Its like the ability to create cutscenes have taken away their incentive to actually make a game.
 

Chefe

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I think Japanese game development peaked at Super Mario Bros 3.
 

Sol Invictus

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Japan: skip the games, just stick to the anime and the food. Wasabi rules!

As for Baldur's Gate - it was an RPG, albeit one with limited choices. It wasn't anywhere as limited, or linear as the Final Fantasy titles.
 

Athame

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angler said:
I think Japanese game development peaked at Super Mario Bros 3.


Sol Invictus said:
Japan: skip the games, just stick to the anime and the food. Wasabi rules!


:lol:

Sol Invictus said:
As for Baldur's Gate - it was an RPG, albeit one with limited choices. It wasn't anywhere as limited, or linear as the Final Fantasy titles.

I'm with ye. I'll take BG style games over FF any day of the week and twice on Sunday. BIS took Infinity Engine and turned it into a masterpiece - Torment.
 

Diogo Ribeiro

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Sol Invictus said:
As for Baldur's Gate - it was an RPG, albeit one with limited choices. It wasn't anywhere as limited, or linear as the Final Fantasy titles.

I find it's nearly the exact opposite. On terms of character creation, Baldur's Gate was clearly above it with its ability to create characters and choose starting attributes, skills and race. But with every new Final Fantasy that has been released, there have been more and better ways of character customization which have surpassed the (mostly) linear level and skill progression of the BG series. Of course, freedom of creation is always nice, and for the most part better than playing someone's PnP character or exacerbated japanese schoolgirl fantasy.

Both featured the same kind of linear progression when it came to the story, from the concept of unlockable areas to going trough the story meeting up with antagonistic characters and going trough a 'wild ride' across the gameworld. The exploration was pretty much the same as well: travel the world and find new places to adventure and level up, find loot, characters and random weirdness.In both you could nevermind the main story for some time and just focus on this. Baldur's Gate did exploration with adjacent map areas, Final Fantasies do it in a continuous map, but the result is very much the same.

Both share the high use of illusion of choice, as well as minute choices that actually have a modicum of impact game and storywise. The main difference is that Baldur's Gate allowed for some important choices for nearly all of the saga's titles, while the choices in Final Fantasies only started to have true importance around Final Fantasy VI. But more choices made trough dialogue doesn't really matter when the majority is either pointless or leading to the same outcome.
 

Kraszu

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Role-Player but BG have many sub-quest that are less lineral then a main plot.
 

Drakron

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Because I am :twisted: ...

You know, I've felt similarly myself. I really liked Final Fantasy VII, and it was one of the first console RPG's that I found I enjoyed.

You and half the Internet by the looks of things ...

Since then, however, it seems that Japanese console RPG's have become far more about the cutscenes than about the gameplay.

No shit ... JRPGs always been more of telling a story with combat within story stages, kinda like puzzles in adventure games.

I recently played a console game called "Star Ocean" which was recommended to me, and I was amazed to discover that the entire game was essentially a string of long cutscenes broken up by fights.

I take you are talking about "Star Ocean III: Until the End of Time".

I read Xenogears is worst, not that I can say because I live in europe and Square world map is from the 13th century.

I wasn't even given any choices... the character I was supposedly playing would make major story decisions on his own and otherwise progress through this plot, and the only time I took control was to guide the party through the world, fighting monsters and trying to find the next cutscene.

How much that difers from your own company RPGs?

Morrowind had no choices, BioWarian RPGs have the "select the ending" choice ... tradictionaly RPGs dont offer ANY choice, the illusion of choice but not a choice.

Yes, there have been a overuse of cutscenes in JRPGs but they aimed at TELLING a story and not of MAKING a story.

I mentioned this issue to the friend who recommended the game to me, and he seemed puzzled by my response. The story was excellent, he said, didn't I appreciate it?

Guess not ...

As far as he was concerned, Japanese RPG's had stories that were way beyond anything western-style RPG's came up with.

Hentai games have then, they are not pussies like western RPGs that are slaves of the rating and mega stores policy over ratings.

They pull some serious shit at times, Xenogears have God as final boss and FF X makes a lot of stabs to organized religion.

I said sure, maybe (if one likes the sort of angsty teen drama that is prevalent in Japanese RPG's, I guess, but that's just taste) but that's what you get when you have a completely predefined protaganist. And it didn't even seem to be much of a game to me... I was reading a book, more or less, and my lack of involvement with the decisions made me entirely disinterested. It was an adventure game with stats and levels, and I wanted an RPG. One that had decisions.

He doesn't need that. He just wants a good story, and if he gets to make a major decision or two it's a bonus. I, meanwhile, need a game where I determine my own fate. I know I'm not playing ME, and in a computer game freedom is a bit of an illusion anyhow, but I want that illusion. When it's done well, it keeps me interested because I'm the one driving the action. Add that to a mature storyline that recognizes that not everyone who plays these games is fifteen years old and still giggles at the sight of a boobie and I'm happy as a clam.
We know exactly what you are talking about, Dave.[/quote]

I guess you dont play the latest BioWare titles, dont get me wrong but when I was playing JE it strike me that I done that before and it hold no suprises for me.
 

Athame

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Kraszu said:
BG have many sub-quest that are less lineral then a main plot.

Yeah, I never really got into FF at all, it reminded me too much of Zelda. :roll:

As far as consoles go, I'm sure you'd be hard put to find a better console oriented RPG series but I HATE CONSOLES (And I admittedly know little about them or the games that are available for them). I'm a PC gamer.

Also, Torment (My favorite) didn't have a lot of cosmetic and chargen customizations but the role playing that could be done through dialog, alignment, ability score, joined factions and other variables was impressive.

Torment was very appealing to many hardcore RPers and true to that tradition, it bombed in sales. It was just one more reminder that our tastes just don't sell well. :(
 

Sarvis

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Athame said:
Yeah, I never really got into FF at all, it reminded me too much of Zelda. :roll:

Yeah, because the gameplay of those two games are so very similar. :roll:

David Gaider said:
It was an adventure game with stats and levels, and I wanted an RPG. One that had decisions.




Hordes of the Underdark is more of an Adventure game than any Final Fantasy.
 

Neverwhere

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Athame said:
Also, Torment (My favorite) didn't have a lot of cosmetic and chargen customizations but the role playing that could be done through dialog, alignment, ability score, joined factions and other variables was impressive.

While Torment featured loads of dialogue choices in the zillions of conversations which the Nameless One had to engage in, I simply do not buy the story that the game offered you a great deal of freedom. Sure, the number of factors which your dialogue options depended on were impressive, but - more often than not - these dialogue options led to more of the same (e.g. another ability score bonus).

While Torment's story is not linear in the strict sense, this is so because of its setting (Planescape) and because of the center of the story (the PC rather than an extraneous event) rather than because of the freedom the game affords the player. No matter what choices you make, the PC is the Nameless One and he will confront that other part of himself which has been taken from him. Storywise, TOEE offers you more options (e.g. by allowing you to join with the Temple forces, ending the game halfway through).

This is not to say that Torment is not a fabulous game. It is grand. But it is more booklike than most people would have it.
 

Major_Blackhart

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Tactics and FF6 are the best Final Fantasies out there. These other ones pretty much suck the donkey cock. And I dont play Bio, so I cant be a judge of their games.
 

Sarkile

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Sarvis said:
David Gaider said:
It was an adventure game with stats and levels, and I wanted an RPG. One that had decisions.




Hordes of the Underdark is more of an Adventure game than any Final Fantasy.
:lol: Well, I don't think that's quite true. But there are still many similarities between the two.
 

Atrokkus

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While Torment's story is not linear in the strict sense, this is so because of its setting (Planescape) and because of the center of the story (the PC rather than an extraneous event) rather than because of the freedom the game affords the player. No matter what choices you make, the PC is the Nameless One and he will confront that other part of himself which has been taken from him. Storywise, TOEE offers you more options (e.g. by allowing you to join with the Temple forces, ending the game halfway through).
Following your logic-trail, it's safe to announce that Fallout is no longer an RPG, but also some kind of book-game. Why? Because your character is ALWAYS the vault dweller (who cares if he sticks with plasma or sniperrifle?) and the main plot is quite linear, don't you think? Also, not much freedom (as in FO2), but that's not a problem at all. But, it has some fucking great sub-plots (necropolis junktown et al), which offer so much roleplaying and freedom. Same goes with Torment: the main plot may be linear, and character the same, but there are lots of subplots that you can delve in and get some very good roleplaying experience. Plus, there are always choices there. The end-game choice is one of the best I've ever witnessed.

Both featured the same kind of linear progression when it came to the story, from the concept of unlockable areas to going trough the story meeting up with antagonistic characters and going trough a 'wild ride' across the gameworld.
Yes, at the end of the day, the story was linear, but again it offered choices of subplots and the way that story reached its predefined ending. For instance, as a player, I was offered a pretty hard choice of either joining thiefs or vampires in BG2. Who cares if no matter whom you join the ending will be the same, but for me it was a real choice, because i did not know what would come next. It might be an illusion, but only from the perspective of someone who already finished the game or knew it beforehand. For a player, it doesn't seem as an illusion, it's part of story,and your role in it. Also, BG2's story is so rich that even linearly it offers a lot of immersion. Plus, there are subplots, and quite a lot of them. Fortresses, for instance -- it's one of the best guild concepts I've ever seen.
So, it is RPG, a pure and grand.
 

Sarkile

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Drakron said:
I recently played a console game called "Star Ocean" which was recommended to me, and I was amazed to discover that the entire game was essentially a string of long cutscenes broken up by fights.

I take you are talking about "Star Ocean III: Until the End of Time".

I read Xenogears is worst, not that I can say because I live in europe and Square world map is from the 13th century.
If you mean Xenosaga instead of Xenogears, then yes that was pretty extreme. That piece of shit was a 60 hour game, a bit more than 40 of them were from cut scenes. They even had a cut scene devoted to eating a fucking meal.
As far as Star Ocean, he must've been talking about Star Ocean 3, because the rest of the series was better than Final Fantasy 7. And almost as 'non-linear' as a Bio game to boot.
 

LlamaGod

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Freedom Force isnt an RPG, retards. So quit trashing on it. It's an RTS but you are fools if you listen to the idiots that call it an RPG.

As for the original post...

bigouch2ud.png
 

Drakron

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Sarkile said:
If you mean Xenosaga instead of Xenogears, then yes that was pretty extreme. That piece of shit was a 60 hour game, a bit more than 40 of them were from cut scenes. They even had a cut scene devoted to eating a fucking meal.

Same shit as far as I know, Xenogears was done by Square that then layoff the staff or they quit and they made Xenosaga.

As Xenogears had the (I read) excuse they run out of time and space had to devote to plot exposition cutscenes that were supposed to be part of gameplay, Xenosaga is supposed to be how it sould be done so if they managed add even more cutscenes I start to wonder what the fuck they are doing.

Since Namco does not want to publish it in PAL (since for some reason we PAL gamers dont like RPGs) I will never know, Namco is on "dont buy" list because of that ... not that it matters much since Namco pretty much publishes some fighting game series and some flight sim serie so its not like I even have a reason to buy their games.
 

Sarkile

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Drakron said:
Same shit as far as I know, Xenogears was done by Square that then layoff the staff or they quit and they made Xenosaga.

As Xenogears had the (I read) excuse they run out of time and space had to devote to plot exposition cutscenes that were supposed to be part of gameplay, Xenosaga is supposed to be how it sould be done so if they managed add even more cutscenes I start to wonder what the fuck they are doing.

Since Namco does not want to publish it in PAL (since for some reason we PAL gamers dont like RPGs) I will never know, Namco is on "dont buy" list because of that ... not that it matters much since Namco pretty much publishes some fighting game series and some flight sim serie so its not like I even have a reason to buy their games.
Yes Xenogears gave you very little ability to do anything in the second disc, just summarizing what the characters do. But because of that the second disc flies by pretty quickly and all of a sudden you're allowed to wander around the world map again before the final boss battle. Even with that the way it was, at least over half of Xenogears was gameplay instead of cutscenes.
 

Diogo Ribeiro

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mEtaLL1x said:
Yes, at the end of the day, the story was linear, but again it offered choices of subplots and the way that story reached its predefined ending. For instance, as a player, I was offered a pretty hard choice of either joining thiefs or vampires in BG2.

It wasn't difficult. Thieves = lesser of the two evils. Vampires = bigger of the two evils. Unless people disregarded all the foreshadowing on (and by) both guilds, there was no way to not take a hint on what each guild meant or would possibly lead to.

As for it being a hard choice, I suggest you play some of the Final Fantast titles and see some of the choices they present to you. "Choice of subplots" is there as well, even if in a less developed way.

Who cares if no matter whom you join the ending will be the same

I didn't mention this at all.

but for me it was a real choice, because i did not know what would come next. It might be an illusion, but only from the perspective of someone who already finished the game or knew it beforehand.

No, they already are an illusion of choice regardless if you played the game before or not. You only become aware of it when you replay and take the other choice, but this has no impact on being an illusion. It's like saying a bug in the game doesn't exist until you chance upon it.
 

Neverwhere

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mEtaLL1x said:
While Torment's story is not linear in the strict sense, this is so because of its setting (Planescape) and because of the center of the story (the PC rather than an extraneous event) rather than because of the freedom the game affords the player. No matter what choices you make, the PC is the Nameless One and he will confront that other part of himself which has been taken from him. Storywise, TOEE offers you more options (e.g. by allowing you to join with the Temple forces, ending the game halfway through).
Following your logic-trail, it's safe to announce that Fallout is no longer an RPG, but also some kind of book-game. Why? Because your character is ALWAYS the vault dweller (who cares if he sticks with plasma or sniperrifle?) and the main plot is quite linear, don't you think? Also, not much freedom (as in FO2), but that's not a problem at all. But, it has some fucking great sub-plots (necropolis junktown et al), which offer so much roleplaying and freedom. Same goes with Torment: the main plot may be linear, and character the same, but there are lots of subplots that you can delve in and get some very good roleplaying experience. Plus, there are always choices there. The end-game choice is one of the best I've ever witnessed.

I cannot recall ever claiming that Torment was not an RPG. My point is really quite simple: for a good RPG, the first and foremost element you need is a great plot, rather than the choice of playing it as a goody-two-shoes paladin, an evil munchkin, or a gangsta rapper. Too much freedom is detrimental to the storyline. I have yet to play a game which proves this impression wrong.
 

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