Are Angry Fans Really Ruining Video Games?

[Excommunicator]

The game industry might be creative. Innovative, is it not. And by that I mean that creativty can be defined as taking something old, cutting it up in pieces and putting it together in a totally new way.
Innovatiion, however is to gut and courage to try something entirely new and unproven. An example of innovation(in newer times) might be CD RED Projects game, The Witcher. Another example might be DA: Origins 6 different starting points.
Another example might Alpha Protocol that actually dared made conversation matter and the hunger meter in Mask of the Betrayer.

Examples of creativity might be DA2, Arcania and Oblivion. Simply because these games uses and uses a set formula, but combines this set formula in a new ways.

Don't take such a simple view of it. You might be technically right, but you basically make irrelevant the concept of "creativity" in the way you explain it.

Creativity isn't binary. It works on a scale.

Just because something shows some slight indication of creativity somewhere, doesn't make it a product that can be characterised as "creative". In fact, by the very nature of it, things that show only a little creativity can arguably be called uncreative due to the lack of effort and difficulty in producing it. If anyone can do the same with little concerted effort, does it really even deserve to be called creative? I don't think so.

 

[forgotmypasswordagain]

too long, please don't read

huh wut

Oh you guys.

The community manager, whose eventual recovery from retardation I shall pray nightly for, probably means something like, "Games encompass a wider realm of creativity than other artforms." Music, concept art, effects, story, gameplay, coding, 3D modeling, sound effects and mixing, voice work, character design - neither books, paintings, music nor (typical) movies alone involve so many different fields of creative production.

That's objectively true, but also dumb, because all that really means is that money is being thrown around. Creativity is something anybody can do (PUSSYDOODLES!) - but without taste, intelligence and (most-importantly) imagination, "creativity" can do more harm than good, as is evidenced by how stupid games seem to make stupid people even stupider.

Creativity from hopeless fanboys is not the same thing as creativity from vibrant, independent, philosophically-inclined nerds. In the first instance you have a product at best, and in the second you have, at best, art. That's the difference between games now and the games we have enjoyed in the past; that's the change that has occurred. Games were closer to being art when they were not obsessed with being considered art. You can't make that with money alone.

The problem is that developers are so awestruck by the Hollywood methods that any glimmer of originality is ruthlessly and summarily tarnished with crass commercialism - not to mention, also, that they're so overcome with vanity for what they call their "creativity" that their games are painfully lacking in basic, common-sense features and mechanics. That's why we here at RPGCodex complain, anyhow - I can't speak for the guys on Treyarch's forums, never read them.

As for the community manager's original message - it's obviously insane. How can people complaining on a forum have anything to do with whether your games are turning out good or bad? It's the developer's call in the end; they're making it, they take responsibility. That's how shit works! I think what this person is really saying is that they're very tired of doing their job managing the community for this game and want to live a life blissfully free from any form of criticism so that they can spend more time fucking-off at work and less time having to ban people who are unsatisfied with Treyarch. This is community management in the era of multi-million-dollar AAA games: SHUT UP!

rpgcodex should change from a news website into a development team. save the world.

 

[kasmas]

If the industry was that creative and innovative we wouldn't still play games from the previous century .
Of course we are frustrated and angry because we have to pay 60€ to play watered down versions of very old games .

On forum behaviour i think it has mostly to do with the audience devs are targeting and the titles they use. I mean that a new shooter will come out named "Deus" and it will be made mostly for people who have not play the previous ones. It will sell well and the new fans will be happy to give it a go and then put it in the closet without registering on the forums to post.
Old fans will immediately spot the turd and start going apeshit in official forums , blogs , gaming sites , social media.

 

[Azrael the cat]

The game industry might be creative. Innovative, is it not. And by that I mean that creativty can be defined as taking something old, cutting it up in pieces and putting it together in a totally new way.
Innovatiion, however is to gut and courage to try something entirely new and unproven. An example of innovation(in newer times) might be CD RED Projects game, The Witcher. Another example might be DA: Origins 6 different starting points.
Another example might Alpha Protocol that actually dared made conversation matter and the hunger meter in Mask of the Betrayer.

Examples of creativity might be DA2, Arcania and Oblivion. Simply because these games uses and uses a set formula, but combines this set formula in a new ways.

Don't take such a simple view of it. You might be technically right, but you basically make irrelevant the concept of "creativity" in the way you explain it.

Creativity isn't binary. It works on a scale.

Just because something shows some slight indication of creativity somewhere, doesn't make it a product that can be characterised as "creative". In fact, by the very nature of it, things that show only a little creativity can arguably be called uncreative due to the lack of effort and difficulty in producing it. If anyone can do the same with little concerted effort, does it really even deserve to be called creative? I don't think so.

Wrong way around. Innovation is finding new ways to implement or expand upon old ideas. Creativity is coming up with new ideas. Game industry is innovative, not creative.

 

[Excommunicator]

@forgottenpassword

Well said, except that last line is probably as insane as what the community manager said..

[insert 4chan trolling image where the guy comes into the room and says something and everyone else goes mad attacking each other]

That is how Codex game development would fare.


@ Azrael

I assume you are responding to aries' comments, but I will just add that innovation is a creative process, and creativity is an umbrella term, so your explanation of creativity is not exclusive of your definition of innovation.

I guess I would call the industry minimally innovative, but not in a very good way. They do "develop" ideas in their own ways, but their approach isn't one of wisdom or creative appreciation. I also wouldn't like to call them "creative" even though that is technically the case, because most of them are at a very low-functioning level of creativity, and simply aren't putting enough effort into it, assuming they even have the potential.

 

[mondblut]

I don't want no fucking "innovation" in my games. I already found out what kind of games I like to play, some 15 years ago or earlier, and am perfectly happy playing just that kind of games and nothing else, thank you very much. Or would be happy, if only "innovation" wouldn't already got in there and killed them.

I wish the guy was right and we "angry fans" actually had it in our power to stifle their cocksucking shiteating "creativity". Like, by catching them and doing adjustments to their brains with a drill.

And, there is no semantic difference between "creativity" and "innovation" in computer games. Both are euphemisms to "dumbing down".

 

[Mech]

Except that we are being angry because you're not creative.

What do you have to say to that?

I don't actually see the Codex as a great cheerleader for groundbreaking creativity. The last game I remember getting anything near widespread praise around here was KotC. And every time a sequel to an old game is announced, nearly unanimous jeers greet EVERY prospective change from the originals.

Or does 'creativity' mean 'adhering to a classic formula'? I get my definitions messed up.

Yes, yes it does.

 

[Xor]

*snip*

I read your post anyway. Well said. Those were more or less my thoughts.


There are enough talented people on the Codex that we could probably produce a game if we sat down and worked on it, but many of us are probably too lazy to ever finish anything, and knowing us we'd spend more time arguing about the nature of an RPG than actually working. I have enough programming projects to neglect; I don't need to add another.

 

[Luigi]

Face of retard.

 

[Darth Roxor]

Community manager, huh? That's cool. Why don't we have a Kodex Kommunity Koordinator?

 

[SacredPath]

Since I've just dug out Lionheart: Legacy of the Crusader again, I can't dismiss his complaints.

That game wasn't exactly met with constructive critcism, but rather open hostility. In retrospective I wouldn't rule out that the devs would have taken the time to come up with some more fixes if the fans' negativity wouldn't have been so overwhelming. Of course, it's hard to say if any damage was done because Reflexive never came out of the closet with another RPG again.

 

[Andyman Messiah]

Because we're all KKKs.

 

[Shannow]

Since I've just dug out Lionheart: Legacy of the Crusader again, I can't dismiss his complaints.

That game wasn't exactly met with constructive critcism, but rather open hostility. In retrospective I wouldn't rule out that the devs would have taken the time to come up with some more fixes if the fans' negativity wouldn't have been so overwhelming. Of course, it's hard to say if any damage was done because Reflexive never came out of the closet with another RPG again.

So make a case of how Lionheart creatively innovated upon old mechanics to make them better, how it innovatively created new "stuff" that was good (or at least better than the old stuff) and how constructive criticism would have lead to a good/great game.

I'm seriously interested. Also if you could come up with a few more examples, that'd be nice.

 

[SacredPath]

So make a case of how Lionheart creatively innovated upon old mechanics to make them better, how it innovatively created new "stuff" that was good (or at least better than the old stuff)

it did take the SPECIAL system and use it in a real time game, which was an innovation; though the quality of the result can be debated. But the point is exactly that if innovation fails to live up to fans' expectations, the criticism turns into a dickfest nowadays. People were raging over this innovation so hard, when the only serious flaw about combat/ implementation of SPECIAL in rt was the speed of it.

People were also bitching about how replenishing life and mana worked, even though they tried to bind that into the story and gameplay which they did well enough to satisfy both RPers and action gamers IMO.

and how constructive criticism would have lead to a good/great game.

I wouldn't rule out the possibility that they would have tweaked the game further, added more content etc. if the constructive criticism hadn't been drowned out by the flaming. I dimly remember one of the devs on the board saying something to this effect, though I don't know how true that is of course. The thing is that even if they had tweaked the game some more, it wouldn't have been enough to overcome the hugely negative impression that had been created by reviews/ forum posts. I find the game interesting enough as it is now, with all its flaws, and would have rated the game pretty high if they had only added more content and balance tweaks which could have been done relatively easy by patching. But militant fanboyism wouldn't have rewarded such a move.

I'm seriously interested. Also if you could come up with a few more examples, that'd be nice.

You want to see examples of how (perceived) inflexibility of the market prevented innovation?

 

[el Supremo]

Well, dear Sir, if you not a greedy bastard, you can ignore angry fans and just do what you see fit.
I'd like to live during a times when some producers in game industry wil be able to say something like "who cares about the sales anyway; it is all about art"
: x : x : x

 

[Excommunicator]

I am with you on that, Mr. Freeman.

 

[zeitgeist]

I wouldn't rule out the possibility that they would have tweaked the game further, added more content etc. if the constructive criticism hadn't been drowned out by the flaming.

If the developers were competent enough, in tune with what the game needs to be good enough, or however you want to call it, to be able to separate the wheat from the chaff among the thousands of fan posts on their forums and such, wouldn't they likely also be competent enough to do what the game needs even without that feedback? And vice versa.

 

[Shannow]

...

Hmm, you seem to see putting corners on wheels as innovative... But ok. And I don't believe decent devs are put off by "rabid" fans. Just look at Elemental. The guy who made it thought it was finished and great when he released it. The fans went ape-shit. After a few weeks of flaming he finally realized that they were right. Since then he's given development over to actual developers and promises all sorts of much needed improvements.

You want to see examples of how (perceived) inflexibility of the market prevented innovation?

Nope. I'd like to have some examples where angry fans prevented good innovation/creativity.

 

[el Supremo]

I am with you on that, Mr. Freeman.

Call me Gordon.

 

[tehRPness]

If the dude is right, I guess that means Avatar was actually a pretty good movie, but I'm too dumb and rabid of a hater to appreciate its art. (insert South Park Inception spoof saying YOU JUST DON'T GET IT CAUSE YOU'RE NOT SMART ENOUGH! LET'S GO)

 

[forgotmypasswordagain]

People could've gone easier on Reflexive - but was that what ruined the game?

No, it was the choices that Reflexive made. First, in the course of development, and then later the failure to fix the problems with patches.
Being butthurt due to forums is just not a smart business strategy. Derek Smart has learned that the hard way and maybe Bioware will too if they keep it up.

Take a look at Reflexive Entertainment's roster of finished games. Is that the resume of a company that's making all the right choices? Do they really seem to anybody like a studio bursting with creativity and artistry, being held-down by the demands of their fans? Of course not. They're just making games and getting paid.

There's nothing wrong with being just another development house that makes stuff for money - but Reflexive, being exactly that, simply doesn't get to hide behind the argument that's been made in their favor. Neither does Treyarch. The rationale of the defense doesn't match the facts of the matter.

Stardock got a lot of shit for 'Elemental' and they deserved it - then they shuffled their management structure in response to that kind of feedback. Whether that's going to work we cannot know yet (it won't prolly) but it's the right reaction. Even Bethesda has made some token attempts to smarten-up with Fallout3 and Skyrim, despite having the gaming media in their pocket via Zenimax. Whining, banning, argumentation or neglect aren't justified, and when the representative of a development studio feels free to act that way, their behavior reveals the culture/mentality of their studio as being characterized by entitlement and egotism.

And isn't that exactly the sort of attitude that you would expect to be at the heart of the drive to make games that are fundamentally about being as easy as possible, awing people with flashy graphical effects (instead of artistic design) and hypnotizing them to the verge of addiction with hollow gimmicks (achievements, grinding, etc.)?

Companies like that don't deserve sales, let alone the kind of moral support that this community manager is demanding. If they were as concerned about the opinions and amusement of their paying customers as they are about protecting their absurdly sanctimonious concept of creativity, then instead of trying to police the thoughts of their audience and the critiques of reviewers, they would appreciate every word of feedback (however negative) for what it truly is: an invaluable insight into the views of the people they're ultimately working for.

But the sad fact is that the opposite of what the community manager claims is true: in the vast majority of cases involving bigger studios like Treyarch, the fans actually have no say in the direction of the series. Whatever they write, however much they play, and in whichever way they support the game, they have no apparent influence as the aspects of games that they once enjoyed are continually streamlined out of existence. That's the primary reason (out of many) why these studios encounter the kind of complaints that they do (which isn't to say that all of them are justified) - but it makes obvious the approach that they have to take towards customers if they really don't want to encounter this sort of thing anymore. Haughtily rejecting criticism is only going to provoke more of the same heated exchanges, which does have an effect on sales in the end.

A good first step, Treyarch? Hire a new community manager. (but you won't even do that let alone the million other necessary things so fuck you)

 

[tehRPness]

I love how some of these game makers think they actually are making art, and so the gamers have to obey their every whim, now that they're videogame revolutionists. They're making fucking entertainment, and it's up to us whether he makes money off that. In essence, he is working for us.

 

[aries202]

The point was trying to distinguish between the terms creative and innovation. Innovation means, I think, to find a totally new way of making something, case in point: putting a hunger meter into MotB or trying something different with inventories in adventure games. Or developing a radiant AI system for Oblivion. And in order to develop this system, for instance, you'll need to be creative.

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

Treyarch and creativity in the same sentence? Why, I'd never...

Well there was this

Jesus Fucking Christ. Modern Fagfare was made by the same company as Die By the Sword?
A company that made the VSIM system made a hitscan corridor shooter? What the fuck?

 

[Volourn]

"might be CD RED Projects game, The Witcher."

Like the Witcher or not, there is nothing innovative,c reative, or original about it.