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Company News Beth vs. Interplay: Bethesda changes lawyers

denizsi

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Mastermind said:
denizsi said:
Bankruptcy? Bethesda is owned by ZeniMax, a neocon establishment.

Uh huh. Neocon. Which is why they had cannibal Republicans and an iraq war supporter parody in fallout 3. :retarded:

Duh! I guess Hollywood doesn't actually exist.

Mastermind cannot into... well, Mastermind just cannot.

Unlike lowlife plebs who think they can think, servants to our reptilian overlords have long embraced the value of entertainment without acting like insecure third world shit hole tyrants about it.
 
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Sceptic said:
Azrael the cat said:
And I have NEVER heard of a situation where firing an experienced law firm had any benefit to it.
Well... I'm not sure the previous firm was in any way "experienced". I'm no lawyer, but their streak of gaffes was rather impressive.

It's entirely possible that Bethesda was receiving bad advice. The gaffes had a tendency to be on the back of unjustifiable assertions of facts, claims which were summarily proven wrong by Interplay and ultra-aggressive litigation tactics (trying to get reasonable counterclaims struck out, for example). Only the 3rd reeks of poor advice, and even that can sometimes be a client problem. It may well be poor performance by the law firm, but it is still is the kind of behaviour you'd see where they're nervous about the underlying case. 'Nervous' doesn't mean that they'll lose, or that they should lose, but they aren't playing a 'straight bat' so to speak.

Their is nothing 'weird' about aggressive tactics, like trying to strike out every single point of your opponent's claim before hearing, but what IS weird is expecting to be successful. It's usually done just to get the message across that you're going to make the other side spend some serious dough if they aren't willing to come to the negotiating table. Bethesda's reaction seems to imply an expectation to actually win those motions. Keep in mind that all Interplay needed to do was show that there's a case to be heard - it doesn't actually need to substantiate its claims until it goes to trial (which is why none of means that Interplay's case is strong).
 
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ALT999 said:
Azrael the cat said:
Lol. I can't comment with any real expertise on this, as this kind of large commercial ligitation is a different world to criminal trials, but I suspect that this would be costing Bethesda a fortune. Smaller cases than this have involved hundreds and hundreds of folders full of documents (i.e. hundreds of sets of documents, not just hundreds of documents). In a case that might bring up the minute details of the online game from art to source code to design docs, plus records of numerous telephone conversations, emails, the contract itself and all supporting documentary evidence of the process by which it was negotiated, every letter ever written between the firms, etc.....I'm guessing this will actually be document-heavy for its size.

Now a new firm comes in, they'll have to read through every one of those documents, plus the previous firms files, advice, correspondence etc (itself being a hefty amount). And then they'll need to familiarise themselves with it and the case in general. All the while charging $400/hr + barristers fees (more expensive than that). If they're appointing new counsel as well, then that's another set of lawyers to familiarise themselves with the case.

All to get their new lawyers up to the same standard that their old lawyers were the day before they fired them.
You should have stopped here. Finally, I thought to myself, there's a subject azrael actually knows about and has something interesting to say on. If you could estimate the monies I'd be happier but like you say there's lots of types of law. This seems like it will be in the millions, though, just to get them up to speed again.

Azrael the cat said:
And I have NEVER heard of a situation where firing an experienced law firm had any benefit to it. Usually it happens when the client doesn't really 'get' the law, and expects it to work like the media/shitty films, where you can just hire good lawyers and magically make the legal requirements go away. Either that, or their lawyers start to explain to them how shite their case is, or how their argument just can't be substantiated in court, or how they actually need to provide some real evidence in response to holes in their version of events.

Law is like any other profession - tv makes it out to be run on 'flashes of brilliance', but really it's just attention to detail, experience and familiarity with the relevant law/context. Going from one adequately experienced law firm to another just isn't likely to do anything but cost money - especially given that you've already got an independent 2nd opinion on the case from the counsel/barrister when they get the brief.

I'm guessing either Bethesda can't into litigation or their basic case is a little wobbly.

And then you slip back into mediocrity or outright stupidity. I know because I've done it and know many others who have, successfully.

It's not so much flash of brilliance but scumbags who don't give a fuck or who try to drain as much as they can off of you, and like any profession 80% of people are mediocre or incompetent. So if some asshole is snowballing you and padding hours you just sit there and take it? People having that attitude is how ridiculous rates like you mention above become a reality in the first place. As an aspy lawyer (what a ridiculous, hopeless combination) you don't get that most lawyers are lying scumbag wastrels who have to have a gun to their head every second to keep them working.

If you keep your lawyer on track and working for you and he is aggressive you will win like 90% of the time if you have a reasonable case, but if you just sit there like a fucking blob you will almost always lose. Maybe in australia since it's so small town it is a different situation but my guess is that you are just an asshat, because anyone who's ever tried to run a business realizes pretty quickly half your effort is keeping people honest.

But yeah, looks like bethesda is fucked. Which is hard to tell for sure if you don't read a million legal documents but it looks very much to me like they have violated their contract. Which doesn't mean they simply don't get to block interplay but which could lead to serious monetary penalties and loss of fallout license completely, and complete bankruptcy of Bethesda Software, which is result I am hoping for.

Lol :D
 

obediah

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Mastermind said:
denizsi said:
Bankruptcy? Bethesda is owned by ZeniMax, a neocon establishment.

Uh huh. Neocon. Which is why they had cannibal Republicans and an iraq war supporter parody in fallout 3. :retarded:

Yeah, just like Murdoch is a secret liberal because the Simpsons make fun of republicans and religion. Stop being a fucktard.
 

Sceptic

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Divinity: Original Sin
Ausir said:
Robert A. Altman the bank embezzler, I'd add, not Robert B. Altman the movie director.
Oh good. I had not heard of A, so I must admit you had me worried for a second. Especially since B has been dead for some years now :(

it is because their lead counsel on the case, Howard H. Stahl, previously of Steptoe & Johnson, has moved to Fried, Frank, Harris, Shriver & Jacobson.
Ah. So this means they guy in charge is still in charge. So Herve still has a chance of winning.

Azrael the cat said:
Their is nothing 'weird' about aggressive tactics, like trying to strike out every single point of your opponent's claim before hearing, but what IS weird is expecting to be successful.
Well yeah. What I find weird is also that they kept doing this time after time. I can understand underestimating your opposition once, then when the particular strategy fails, to reevaluate your approach accordingly. But Bethesda's lawyers seemed to just stick to this aggressiveness, even when time after time it made them look like fools. And I don't mean just because Interplay presented a counterargument or counterproof; at one point (IIRC this time last year) one of their lawyers kept interrupting the judge until he told him the polite courtroom version of "shut up".
 

Mastermind

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obediah said:
Mastermind said:
denizsi said:
Bankruptcy? Bethesda is owned by ZeniMax, a neocon establishment.

Uh huh. Neocon. Which is why they had cannibal Republicans and an iraq war supporter parody in fallout 3. :retarded:

Yeah, just like Murdoch is a secret liberal because the Simpsons make fun of republicans and religion. Stop being a fucktard.

Murdoch is a libertarian. Libertarians are not married to either party nor are they known for their religious conviction. Furthermore, Murdoch is also an opportunist, not an idealist. Fox News is conservative to fill up a market void and make him money. If most tv news had been conservative, fox would be liberal. The simpsons presumably also make him money so he lets them do whatever they want as long as they keep doing that. I don't even know why I bother, left winger is practically a synonym for ignorant retard with terminal Dunning-Kruger syndrome. Trying to educate you stupid fucks is like trying to teach a monkey to program.
 
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Sceptic said:
Ausir said:
Robert A. Altman the bank embezzler, I'd add, not Robert B. Altman the movie director.
Oh good. I had not heard of A, so I must admit you had me worried for a second. Especially since B has been dead for some years now :(

it is because their lead counsel on the case, Howard H. Stahl, previously of Steptoe & Johnson, has moved to Fried, Frank, Harris, Shriver & Jacobson.
Ah. So this means they guy in charge is still in charge. So Herve still has a chance of winning.

Azrael the cat said:
Their is nothing 'weird' about aggressive tactics, like trying to strike out every single point of your opponent's claim before hearing, but what IS weird is expecting to be successful.
Well yeah. What I find weird is also that they kept doing this time after time. I can understand underestimating your opposition once, then when the particular strategy fails, to reevaluate your approach accordingly. But Bethesda's lawyers seemed to just stick to this aggressiveness, even when time after time it made them look like fools. And I don't mean just because Interplay presented a counterargument or counterproof; at one point (IIRC this time last year) one of their lawyers kept interrupting the judge until he told him the polite courtroom version of "shut up".

From what I understand (and this could just be (a) a difference in the culture, or (b) my ignorance given that I only did one year of litigation before going to criminal law) each of those strike-out motions would have been signed off on by the client. Of course, it's normally prudent to take the lawyers' advice, so they might have just been doing that. Bethesda also wouldn't have had any direct say over how the case is argued once it gets to court, so it isn't Bethesda's screw-up if the guy is making an ass out of himself by constantly interrupting the judge.

It's hard for me to assess that kind of stuff - even aside from the fact that I know fuck all about that kind of case, US trial lawyers are a lot more aggressive than we are here. You'd never interrupt the judge, shout at witnesses or carry on like the US lawyers do - in fact you're strictly prohibited from theatrics, and doing so could get you a complaint to the legal practice board (a big deal, as it is then recorded permanently on your practice certificate, and they have the authority to suspend you or strike you off), or get you ejected and the case put on hold for a while. Leaving your allocated position on the counsel's desk and approaching the bench without permission, or walking over to the witness/jury for theatrics will DEFINITELY get you some cooling off time for contempt of court. Given that, I'm not really sure how out of the ordinary the lawyer's behaviour was in their system.

There is one possibility, that I used to see a lot (for the short time that I did litigation) by insurance companies when trying to deny straight-up undeniable workers' compensation claims - a deliberate attempt to jack up the costs. Bethesda might be guessing that Interplay may struggle financially if pushed hard enough - so contest everything, make every possible motion for summary judgment and strike-out they can think off, amend the claims at the last minute, then have another hearing to seek leave to do so again, refuse to hand over discovery until ordered and then refuse again until the court threatens to find against you if you don't comply...that sort of thing. That would infuriate the judge no end, but that judge isn't likely to be hearing the eventual trial, and you're not planning on having it go to trial anyway if you're doing that. Given Beth's and Iplay's comparative position, you couldn't rule that out.
 

Major_Blackhart

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If history has proven anything, it's that Herve is as resilient as a New York cockroach. Think he can't survive that sort of legal bombardment? How much money do you think he's really worth? I'll tell you: A fuck ton. And he knows how much money is at stake, including how much could be made on a fallout MMO. He'll stay in the game for as long as he's able, and he's savvy enough to have seen this tactic coming and prepared for it, as well as vicious enough not to be intimidated.
Am I giving him alot of credit? Yes.
However, lets not forget those bets we made back in early 2000's about IPLY folding.

Edit: Not to mention that there are some lawyers who see major bucks in this type of deal and could take the ambulance chaser route: I don't see a penny until you do!
 

circ

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Mastermind said:
obediah said:
Mastermind said:
denizsi said:
Bankruptcy? Bethesda is owned by ZeniMax, a neocon establishment.

Uh huh. Neocon. Which is why they had cannibal Republicans and an iraq war supporter parody in fallout 3. :retarded:

Yeah, just like Murdoch is a secret liberal because the Simpsons make fun of republicans and religion. Stop being a fucktard.

Murdoch is a libertarian. Libertarians are not married to either party nor are they known for their religious conviction. Furthermore, Murdoch is also an opportunist, not an idealist. Fox News is conservative to fill up a market void and make him money. If most tv news had been conservative, fox would be liberal. The simpsons presumably also make him money so he lets them do whatever they want as long as they keep doing that. I don't even know why I bother, left winger is practically a synonym for ignorant retard with terminal Dunning-Kruger syndrome. Trying to educate you stupid fucks is like trying to teach a monkey to program.
Hahaha. Oh Mastermind, you always crack me up. Kinda like Khor. It's like you all stem from the same insane and dumb as fuck vagina. Murdoch is so fucking libertarian he idolizes the shit out of Reagan and Bush and has edicts to shittalk any democrat in office. Holy fuck that's libertarian and unbiased as FUCK.
 

Arcanoix

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Even if Bethesderp loses their license to the Fallout franchise, they are entitled to making one more game.
 

Major_Blackhart

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Yes, but suppose they lose the license to the franchise, what kind of royalties and percentages of sales will they pay to Herve?
 

Mastermind

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circ said:
Mastermind said:
obediah said:
Mastermind said:
denizsi said:
Bankruptcy? Bethesda is owned by ZeniMax, a neocon establishment.

Uh huh. Neocon. Which is why they had cannibal Republicans and an iraq war supporter parody in fallout 3. :retarded:

Yeah, just like Murdoch is a secret liberal because the Simpsons make fun of republicans and religion. Stop being a fucktard.

Murdoch is a libertarian. Libertarians are not married to either party nor are they known for their religious conviction. Furthermore, Murdoch is also an opportunist, not an idealist. Fox News is conservative to fill up a market void and make him money. If most tv news had been conservative, fox would be liberal. The simpsons presumably also make him money so he lets them do whatever they want as long as they keep doing that. I don't even know why I bother, left winger is practically a synonym for ignorant retard with terminal Dunning-Kruger syndrome. Trying to educate you stupid fucks is like trying to teach a monkey to program.
Hahaha. Oh Mastermind, you always crack me up. Kinda like Khor. It's like you all stem from the same insane and dumb as fuck vagina. Murdoch is so fucking libertarian he idolizes the shit out of Reagan and Bush and has edicts to shittalk any democrat in office. Holy fuck that's libertarian and unbiased as FUCK.

Your ability to read appears to be directly proportional to your intellect. That is, they are both non-existent. I never said he was "unbiased" you retarded fucktwat. When you are actually capable of comprehending basic sentences then get back to me. Oh and here's Murdock sucking Obama's dick.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2008/ma ... eetjournal

I repeat myself but it bears saying: you are terminally stupid. A shitstain with an IQ below that of inanimate objects. How anyone like you can still perform basic functions, let alone type actual words is beyond me.
 

Mastermind

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Major_Blackhart said:
Yes, but suppose they lose the license to the franchise, what kind of royalties and percentages of sales will they pay to Herve?

Nothing. They had the license when they made that money. At worst they might have to pay for future sales. However, if herve got back the license he'd have to pay bethesda the money he got for it. Something tells me that's not exactly a dream scenario for him.
 
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Davaris

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Mastermind said:
However, if herve got back the license he'd have to pay bethesda the money he got for it. Something tells me that's not exactly a dream scenario for him.

Why do you think that is the case?

From what I understand if they are proven to have breached the terms of the contract, then it is void. It does not mention that any money should be returned.

The only way I can see something like that working, is if they prove Bethesda violated the contract on a certain date. Then it is possible that all money made after that date, would be owed to Interplay.
 

Mastermind

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Davaris said:
Why do you think that is the case?

Because I listened to what one of the interplay guys said. I don't feel like looking it up but basically he says that if they can't make the MMO the contract is canceled and the license reverts back to them. He also mentioned beth would be able to make only one more fallout game, so I'm guessing that if beth can make another fallout game, interplay certainly wo't get any money out of it.

TBH I don't see how Beth could be found to have breached the terms of the contract. Pretty much the only way for a buyer to breach a sales contract is to not pay for what you bought, and beth paid already. Beth literally cannot breach the contract short of sending armed guys to physically stopping interplay from making a mmo. They can sue and say it's not actually in the contract (like they did) but that's not a breach of the contract unless beth agreed to never sue over details of the contract. At best a judge could declare the contract void in which case all the material reverts back to the original parties (hence my speculation that interplay would have to give bethesda back the money).
 

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