Preview Oblivion preview at Gaming Target

[Dark Elf]

But in SMB3 you had clouds to leap over levels with! Not to forget the level skipping pipes that were in all the games. You also had several ways of getting through the levels, you could don a p-wing and fly straight over it, fight your way through with various weapons (hammer brother costume, raccon custome, fireball flower, plain old stomping etc) or play the magic flute!

*Suddenly realises that it's very possible SMB3 had more options to it than Oblivion will ever have*

 

[Tintin]

Wow you're all so cool with your l33t sarcastic game comparisons. Yes, I wish I were as -tuFF- as you.

 

[Chefe]

But in SMB3 you had clouds to leap over levels with! Not to forget the level skipping pipes that were in all the games. You also had several ways of getting through the levels, you could don a p-wing and fly straight over it, fight your way through with various weapons (hammer brother costume, raccon custome, fireball flower, plain old stomping etc) or play the magic flute!

Oh man, you're right! It's been so long I forgot about all that stuff! Mario 64 really dumbed down the RPG gameplay compared to SMB3 in favor of a bigger world to run around in. Nevertheless, it is still a quality title.

Wow you're all so cool with your l33t sarcastic game comparisons. Yes, I wish I were as -tuFF- as you.

Yea, I bet you wish you were, chico!

 

[Balor]

@ Tintin

a. Don't mess freeform and nonlinear. It's different things.

b. Don't mess powergaming/muchkinism and roleplay. Those are also drastically different things.

c. And, finally, don't mess ablility to roleplay a class (a profession archetype, to be precise), like a thief, a mage, warrior... roleplaying a person, a character (a social archetype).

Ability to roleplay a class is nice. It does make a game RPG. Just not very good RPG. Kinda like Diablo, for instance.
Then, when it comes to roleplay that people here respect, it's a roleplay of a social archetype like a good person or bad person, humorous or morose, sarcastic or easy-going, dumb or intelligent...
Can we have something like that in MW? No.
So, let's break down what MW was:

Is it freeform? - Yes.

Is it nonlinear? - No.

Was it possible to play profession archetypes there? - yes.

Was it possible to roleplay a social archetype? - well, yea, but only to a VERY LIMITED degree, not a whole lot more then in non-RPGs.

And please, remeber, it's PRG Codex, not "Freeform gaming" codex, or "Sims" codex.
Nonlinearity and roleplay as a character are virtually nonexistent in MW.
Will it be better in Oblivion? Time will show.
Just don't claim that MW was a great RPG.
It was a really nice game, despite all it's bugs and flaws, and those were addressed in numerous mods.
Just like Diablo was a very nice game.
Or Elite was a sure fun game.
But neither were RPG... at least to the point where it would be greeted with open arms in here, where people seen Planescape:Torment, Fallout, Arcanum and have 'quality bars' set rather high.
You see what I mean?
MW may be a good game... and, to quote Nomad from AG.ru - if it was made by Kris Taylor, we'd give him a round of applause.
But seen what MW had become in comparison to Daggerfall is really painful.

 

[Tintin]

it's PRG Codex

:

Well, we're always going to have different opinions. I just tend to put enjoyement over classification. I give good game overall more priority than good rpg.

But then again, this is the RPGCodex.

Or PRG Codex

 

[triCritical]

Actually, that could be interesting. 4X and other strategy games have had inherent time limits for a while now. (For example, Civ 1 retired you by 2100, and Strange Adventures in Infinite Space shut you down after 10 years.) Why not RPGs? You have X in-game years to do whatever, at which point you're cut off forcefully and given a score.

Then again, NetHack does that, and your life is usually measured in minutes there.

FO did this with water chip, however, I hated it. I guess it really depends on the CRPG, and how much adventure game/life simulation it is. In other words, pseudo RPG's likes MW and Sims, the fun is playing the game. Anytime a game is open ended and fun, just playing the game not necessarily completing quest a time limit would just hinder the playability. However, I thought it worked well in FO, it just requires you to not forget about the original main quest.

Also didn't FO2 have a 13 year time limit?

 

[Twinfalls]

Yeah that's right, Tintin, just ignore all the very salient points Balor just made, in favour of an idiotic 'well i just like teh FunZor' and a childish 'teehee you made a typo'.

If you're not interested in learning anything, you could just run back to the TES forums you know.

 

[Balor]

Heh, considering I was typing that at 4 am, that's surprisingly mistype-free .
But anyway, about “PRG Codex” issue.
It MW was positioned as a sports game, it would suck, cause it has no crucial elements of such game type.
Same goes for racing. Or car/bike/plane simulator.
Don’t you agree?
It’s would be just stupid to position the game like one of those genres... and, of course, it would be whacked on appropriate forums if devs made such a mistake.

Now, the game has very few elements of actual roleplay. (Stats are fine, but we have those in arcades too, remember?)
Almost as ‘much’ as elements of a sports game (like, you can RUN and JUMP around, and lift WEGHTS or whatever).
See what I mean?
If someone will call NHL Hockey XXXX (or somesuch) a ‘Classic RPG’ - we’d be spitting acidic venom at it. If even sports game fans are pissing themselves over from joy of playing it.
Now do the math.

 

[Zli]

Now, the game has very few elements of actual roleplay. (Stats are fine, but we have those in arcades too, remember?)
Almost as ‘much’ as elements of a sports game (like, you can RUN and JUMP around, and lift WEGHTS or whatever).
See what I mean?
If someone will call NHL Hockey XXXX (or somesuch) a ‘Classic RPG’ - we’d be spitting acidic venom at it. If even sports game fans are pissing themselves over from joy of playing it.
Now do the math.

So MW was what then, an action/adventure game with stats being a glorified health bar? That's nonsense. Using the same logic, someone who didn't value dialogue so much could call FO an X-com clone with reputations and 'alignment' being only elaborate mission choosers and performance meters.

Morrowind was an RPG. You may not like it, I may think Daggerfall was much (much much) better and still sorta dig it, but please don't twist the truth so you could... hell, I have no idea why you would be doing it.

 

[Atrokkus]

Morrowind was an RPG.

Does not compute.
It has RPGelemtns, yes, but it definately is not a pure RPG.

 

[Sarkile]

Sure Morrowind was an RPG. I think what's confusing you is that it was an extremely shitty one.

 

[DarkUnderlord]

He's right you know. See, RPG's work on a continuum.

Here's a diagram:

 

[triCritical]

But its a pretty damn good adventure game, with some RPG elements. :wink:

 

[Tintin]

Yeah that's right, Tintin, just ignore all the very salient points Balor just made, in favour of an idiotic 'well i just like teh FunZor' and a childish 'teehee you made a typo'.

If you're not interested in learning anything, you could just run back to the TES forums you know.

Does inserting yourself into conversations to try and insult people boost your ego or something? Personally I think it makes you look rather stupid.

His point was about Morrowind not being non-linear, and that it wasn't a good rpg.

So I said, Okay, I agree, It's just personally just put enjoyment over classification. And then made a small joke about a typo.

So now that Twinfalls has gotten his confidence boost for the day...

Now, the game has very few elements of actual roleplay. (Stats are fine, but we have those in arcades too, remember?)
Almost as ‘much’ as elements of a sports game (like, you can RUN and JUMP around, and lift WEGHTS or whatever).
See what I mean?
If someone will call NHL Hockey XXXX (or somesuch) a ‘Classic RPG’ - we’d be spitting acidic venom at it. If even sports game fans are pissing themselves over from joy of playing it.
Now do the math.

But, that's not a very good comparison. NHL Hockey XX is clearly not an RPG, but Morrowind, even if you don't like it, still mantains many elements of an rpg and overall would be classified as an rpg.

Oblivion may be wandernig towards the adventurey genre, but I would still call the Elder Scrolls games as RPGs. Maybe not as "pure" as some would like, but then again Mario 64 had a punch move, right? BUt it's still a platformer, not a beat-em-up....Think of it at a larger scale, and you have Morrowind..

 

[Twinfalls]

So I said, Okay, I agree

No you didn't, you said nothing of the sort. You see, when someone like Balor makes an effort to explain things to a troll like you, and you do not even bother to acknowledge what's been said, you deserve to have your behaviour pointed out to you.

Does inserting yourself into conversations to try and insult people boost your ego or something?

No, not at all. I just feel compelled to point out to trolls like you, who migrate over from the TES boards and go on and on with the bog-standard 'all codexers just hate Oblibon, you only talk about Soil Erozun' blah blah, that doing this makes you a trolling idiot.

 

[Tintin]

So, responding to posts with criticism is trolling, but answering all oblivion-related post with sarcastic remarks (angler) or stupid "TREES R KEWL" remarks (Naked_Lunch) isn't? What a world...

Let's see: I make posts. Codexers make posts. I make sarcastic remarks occasionally - Codexers make sarcastic remarks occasionally. I respond with criticism when I disagree - Codexers respond with criticism when when they disagree. I try to end the conversation when everything is being repeated - Codexers try to end the conversation when everything is being repeated. But I like Oblivion - OMG IM A TROLL

and go on and on with the bog-standard 'all codexers just hate Oblibon, you only talk about Soil Erozun' blah blah, that doing this makes you a trolling idiot.

And yet.... I was talking about something else for the last twenty posts!? GASP

 

[Twinfalls]

Tintin, can you not appreciate that this is not the TES Forum?

People getting stuck into Oblivion here is not trolling. People coming here and continually insulting the whole place, saying effectively that this is some kind of anti-Beth hive-mind, IS trolling. Especially when combined with a refusal to understand or even acknowledge the bases for criticism of TES's direction when offered by posters here, which you so readily demonstrate.

 

[Balor]

Well, in fact, I kinda liked Morrowind, and made a few mods, like made the first ever mod to incorporate 'basic necessities' (I've called it Primary Needs, though ), then Herbalism, One Power, etc.
Yet...
I do find it very poor RPG when it comes to actually playing a role.
And not just a 'profession archetype' role, but 'social archetype' role.
In Morrowind, I could NEVER show or develop my character as a person.
Quests and storyline is linear, dialogue is wikepedic, (mwahaha, 'pedic' is 'gay' in slang Russian. And, indeed, MW dialogues are indeed gay ) etc.
And I think that ‘true’ RPGs must be all about playing a role of person, not a profession or a class... Or you’ll have to say that Sims is a hardcore RPG (it even has stats!).
It’s IMHO, though.
But I think that old ‘You can see stats - that’s RPG’, ‘You can play as a mage or thief’ - RPG clichés should be eliminated.... or, at least, called as something else... like ‘Profession RPG’ vs ‘Social RPG’.
If the game has strong elements of both - ‘Hardcore RPG’ .

 

[Tintin]

Tintin, can you not appreciate that this is not the TES Forum?

Yes, I see it now. You were browsing the internet - then thought "HEY! Wouldn't it be cool if I said this to that Tintin guy? lol!"

Because I don't see any reason for this sentence as a response to my post.

People coming here and continually insulting the whole place, saying effectively that this is some kind of anti-Beth hive-mind, IS trolling.

Except that I don't insult the whole place (only idiots), I don't think the direction of Oblivion is perfect but it's not nearly as bad as some of you state, and I don't think this is some kind of anti-Beth hive mind (though I do think generally most "Codexers" dislike Oblivion)

when someone like Balor makes an effort to explain things to a troll like you

You know, you seem to be more angry than Balor himself :wink:

 

[Twinfalls]

Oh no, I'm not angry. :D :D :D :D :D

Now shut up you stupid little troll.

 

[Atrokkus]

But I think that old ‘You can see stats - that’s RPG’, ‘You can play as a mage or thief’ - RPG clichés should be eliminated.... or, at least, called as something else... like ‘Profession RPG’ vs ‘Social RPG’.

ANd Morrowind is Munchie-RPG, or, as I call it, "munchkinarium"

'basic necessities' (I've called it Primary Needs, though Smile)

Such as? Eating or drinking and excremating or what?

 

[Balor]

Eating and drinking - yes.
Exremating - not
You know, when you have all kinds of food utentils, all kinds of food... and cannot eat with this... this is stupid.
Also, it's to balance out the fact that you can spend hours waiting for, say, shop to repopulate, or train for days...
This way it makes it harder and more realistic - which is a definite improvement from MW's 'munchkinarium'
Also, that went to my One Power mod that have a few major features based on those, like getting hungry when Healed, and getting tired when channeling a lot.

 

[Balor]

Oh, btw, I don't see Tintin as troll.
Fanboy - yes.
Troll - no...
At least, as I understand, troll is someone who makes ad hominem remarks.
Hmm... do the math?

 

[Tintin]

Oh no, I'm not angry. :D :D :D :D :D

Now shut up you stupid little troll.

Wow, you really showed me

 

[Twinfalls]

Balor - don't be precious. Trolling is not purely ad-hominem attacking, you're wrong. Go "do the math" yourself, whatever that is.

Tintin - bah. Enough already. I've vented enough built-up spleen from all the TES board fanboy-plus-troll-types, at you individually. So enough from me in that vein. Happy posting.