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Risen is the best Gothic game.

Forest Dweller

Smoking Dicks
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Just finished it, and yes, it really is. But of course I'm going to back that up, so let's get to it!

First off, the only other real contender for best Gothic game is Gothic 2, so that's the one I'll be comparing it to. Gothic 1 was a prototype and inferior in every way to Gothic 2, and Gothic 3 was...shit. They tried to do more with it, but what we ended up getting was a game that was broken in almost every area. So Gothic 2 was without a doubt the best out of those three. But now Risen has come along, with many improvements. And while there are still some things that Gothic 2 did better, ultimately I don't think it gives it the edge over Risen's improvements.

So I'll take each element in turn.

Factions. While Risen only has two, they are done in more detail. For one thing, the first chapter has mutually exclusive stuff to do based on each faction, rather than allowing you to do everything and then pick a faction. You can't do both the monastery quests and the bandit camp quests. Also allowing the possibility of you being impressed into one of the factions is a nice touch and took some balls. Though I can't really speak for the Inquisition path since I was a Don's man all the way. In addition, there is one later change on the gameworld you get to make based on your faction allegience (the fate of Harbor town) with very visible changes (though I suppose not too much in actual gameplay terms). Still, Gothic 2 didn't have anything like that. Also depending on how you handle one of the quests you may end up with a bitch at the end. And the factions seemed to have more moral ambiguity this time around.

Story. Not much to say here, but I liked the story better. A little more engaging, and a somewhat interesting twist towards the end. At least they didn't start out with a necromancer telling you you need to go defeat the dragons, and that you've forgotten shit.

Writing. I definitely detected an improvement here as well. Adding the word "fuck" really helped things a lot. :smug: But in all seriousness, the writing was better. The other Gothics could get pretty tongue-in-cheek at times, while this one was more serious. There weren't any cheesy lines this time around. The voice acting was also markedly better. And the main character doesn't sound like a tard.

Combat. Oh god the fucking combat! How could they go from something so shitty in the first three games to something so good? At least for melee combat I am sure of this; never played as a flaming faggot. Anyway, this is definitely the biggest improvement, and a vital one too. Gothic games have a lot of combat, and they all turn into combat slogs in the end. Having good combat in Risen means that the ending combat section of the game is still moderately fun as opposed to "oh god please let this game end."

So what was so great about it? Well, basically the fact that there's a lot more that you can do. There are ten levels to each weapon skill, and each one gives you something that is important. There are your basic combos, but after that there are lateral blows, and charge-up attacks, and parries and counter-parries, and then more elaborate combos. In addition timing is very important in chaining combos; do it right and they'll be faster, but it's quite tricky. All of these things make combat interesting and more dynamic, meaning it rarely gets boring. In fact I'd say it's the best melee combat in an ARPG that I've encountered. In addition the enemies aren't retarded, and the humanoid ones have all these skills too and will use them on you. They will block, parry, and counter-attack frequently. And finally that retarded stunlock is gone! I can't begin to describe how much of a relief that is. In addition multiple enemies will always try to flank you and work well together, meaning you have to constantly keep repositioning yourself to keep them in front.

And no trash mobs! Yeah, I'm referring to the hordes and hordes of enemies that the previous Gothic games liked to throw at you in the final stages. That's pretty much gone. It's definitely quality over quantity here. In fact fighting more than three or four of the lizardmen enemies (which are your late game badasses) is pretty rare. So there's less of them, but as I said above, these guys are of the strictly non-fucking around variety. Much more enjoyable this way. There are a few instances where you do fight larger numbers, but in those cases you have a companion(s). It's really like night and day.

Difficulty. So, I played the game on Hard, and that seemed like a pretty ideal level of challenge. If you're expecting the game to be as brutal as Gothic 2 NotR you'll probably be disapointed, but you're still in for a challenge if you play on Hard. (It's certainly harder than Gothic 3, and I'd say probably Gothic 1 as well.) In all honesty I thought NotR was too hard in some places. They took it a little too far. But what was worst was that it was uneven. It was undeniably brutal in the beginning, and then it gradually got easier, and then at the end it flipped a switch and became so ridiculous that I had to use cheats. By contrast, the challenge in Risen was fair and steady throughout. The new enemies were paced well and seemed like each was placed specifically to force me to work on my new combat skills. The only exception is the final boss, which was too easy.

Traps. Not really a huge deal, but they certainly made dungeons more interesting. Particularly in those final five in the fourth chapter. Also it's nice to see that hidden switches aren't automatically selectable. Taking a cue from Bloodlines on that I'd wager.

Pickpocketing. Another minor thing but done with style. Rather than giving you a random item, you instead get to look at their inventory with a timer, and pick one item. You only get to do this once for each person. What's cool is that for each person you have a unique line of dialogue that goes with it in order to "distract" them. Some are quite humorous. For instance there are several times that you ask for a joke, and then take the item as they start telling it, only to say "yeah I've heard that one." :lol: Also pickpocketing is a viable way for getting some quest items.

Game Length and Structure. So, Risen is divided into four chapters. Chapter 1 focused on faction quests, Chapter 2 on exploration, and Chapters 3 and 4 on combat. The same three phases of any Gothic game (except 3). My game time was just over forty hours, with about 20 on the first chapter, 10 on the second, and 10 on the third and fourth. But since the combat was so much better, as I said earlier, those final 10 weren't that bad. And Chapter 3 was interesting at least because you were working with a squad of characters working their way into a mountain fortress, leaving the group on solo missions and rejoining for larger battles. Really the only parts that can be considered pure "combat grinds" are those temples with the armor pieces in Chapter 4; and I said earlier, the traps as well as the fact that they are sort of puzzle dungeons make them more interesting. Considering the other Gothic games, the endgame of Risen could have been a LOT worse. The bottom line is: Risen (and this is a first for the Gothic series) did not overstay its welcome. Forty hours seems pretty ideal. Maybe fifty could work if they make it interesting enough for Risen 2, but certainly not Gothic 2's bloated sixty-hour stretch.

What Gothic 2 did better. Yeah, so there are a few areas where Gothic 2 was superior. In general quest design was better and a little more heavy in multiple solutions (for example getting into Khorinis). Quests with multiple outcomes also were a little more complex and ambiguous than the binary "for the Don/for the Inquisition" options in Risen. There was less hand-holding (Risen doesn't have much but there is some). And also Gothic 2 just has some "moments" that rise above anything in Risen. Chapter 2 where you have to circumvent all those orc patrols, avoiding combat entirely. The Thieves Guild in Khorinis and the steps you have to take to get to them. That entire Water Mage plotline. The stealing quests you get from Diego once he gets in the town. Following the trail of that one guy from the monastery all over the map. Gothic 2 definitely had its high points.

But overall it was an uneven experience. And by the end I was just so glad it was over. If there were more of those high points and less of the lows, I'd rate it higher. As it is, it's a fairly tough decision. The fact is Risen is a simpler game; it has less quests, a smaller map, and doesn't try to do as much. But what it DOES try to do it does well. It may not have the highs of Gothic 2, but it doesn't have the lows either, and is a solid experience throughout. And the combat...sorry but the combat is too important. The improvement is so drastic, it's almost like it was made by a different team. You can tell they really focused on that for this installment.

tl,dr: Gothic 2 had high points that surpassed Risen, but it was a very uneven experience which turned to shit in the end. Risen on the other hand was a solid and enjoyable game throughout, making it ultimately the best Gothic game.
 

Raapys

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You wouldn't call the last chapter of Risen a low-point?
 

SCO

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Gothic 1 was not so inferior as you think dude.
 

ghostdog

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No, Gothic 2 NOTR is better all around, but Risen is still a very good game. And the uneven experience that turned to shit in the end was Risen.
 
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Risen was good, but Gothic 2 was better for several reasons such as world design and quest design. Though the Gothic 2 world being so much larger is perhaps thanks to reusing art assets and engine from Gothic 1, though hopefully in Risen 2 they will be able to do the same do to reusing assets and engine from Risen 1. Most of the things that were better in Risen compared to Gothic 2 was on the superficial level such as voice acting and graphics, graphics naturally can not be counted in a comparison due to the improvement of technology between the releases of the two.

The two things that Risen really did do better though was dungeons since the previous games pretty much lacked them, and those in Risen were actually pretty good. Combat was also good, some what arcadeish sure but still heavily stat dependent and took quite some player skill. These two things really saved the other wise weak late game and kept it challenging and entertaining, the ending of Gothic 1 or 2 was similarly linear but not quite as weak.
 

Wulfstand

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I got so bored during Chapter 3, when I had to explore that fucking cave-citadel. God I hated the caves in Gothic games, I almost always got lost in them. :(
 

Admiral jimbob

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I think Risen is a more polished experience, but I had more fun with Gothic 2 overall; the harsh, brutal difficulty added so much to the game imo, and while Risen's combat was probably more technically proficient, I found it far too easy when you got the hang of it. That backwards dash is just too useful. Gothic 2's had me fighting for my life the whole way and never feeling that secure, while Risen's became ludicrously easy as soon as you established the enemies' patterns.
 

made

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TLDR, but I guess this thread says more about the quality of the series as a whole than Risen in particular.
 
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SCO said:
Gothic 1 was not so inferior as you think dude.
I liked it best of the whole series, mostly because everything about it was new then and I thought the slightly claustrophobic prison camp setting was the most original and atmospheric of them all. Gothic 2 + NotR was great, but like VD once said, it basically amounted to "a lot more of the same". Risen was a very good game, too, but it did little more than re-introduce almost everything that was already there in the original Gothic. The cosmetic changes only served to highlight that by now, the formula is getting a little stale.
 

Elwro

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Risen retains many of the elements which were good in G2+NotR, while improving in the areas of melee combat and dungeon design. A very good game marred only by its WTF ending. Will surely replay in the future.
 

Konjad

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Night of the Raven is superior to it. Risen is on the level of Gothic 2, which means it's still worse than Gothic and NotR. There's hope that Risen 2 will be another incline though.
 

Gobbo

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Gothic 1 is a sentimental best. Also it has the best atmosphere and setting. Shitty gameplay though.

Speaking of factions, you can actually do the quests both in swamp and the monastery if you first do the swamp and then you're recruited by force into the ranks of Inquisition. But I heard it is possible to turn againts Inquisition even then by letting Don win in the city. Haven't tried it myself.

Also, the combat in Risen is very well done, but the little importance of stats made the beginning too easy. You could easily beat Brogar with a shitty stick at level 2. :roll:
 

Shannow

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TL;DR

But Gothic 2 has the far better combat/gameplay, dialogue has constant high quality, npcs and story and exploaration are better.
Risen's enemies stay challenging till the end (partly due to the sucky gameplay but also due to balancing). That's the only slight advantage it has over G2.

Gothic2/NotR>>Gothic1>Risen>Gothic3>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>That which shall not be named


I give Gothic 2 :M :M :M :M :M out of :M :M :M :M :M
 

Murk

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Was gonna post exactly what has been posted already.

Won't repeat what others said but one thing that Risen did amazingly well, and one of absolutely few games (if not the only game) that even tried, was the use of in game propaganda to actually persuade the player. No other game has ever made me stop and think about the moral implications of the faction I am about to join anywhere near as well as Risen did. From meeting Jan to getting an actual glimpse of how the two (three) factions actually work to being threatened by recruits in outdoor areas. Absolutely masterfully done.

Also -- you end up with the bitch at the end no matter what route you take in the game.

As for ranking I would say NotR>Risen>Gothic 3>Gothic1, and since those are the only four Gothic games ever I will conclude the ranking there.
 

Admiral jimbob

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Also I just realised how obvious it is that Risen is meant to be a literal sequel to the Gothic series

Spiritual ties and everything, sure, but you guys could be a bit more subtle than ending Gothic 3 with the gods leaving the world and beginning Risen with the gods leaving the world
 

Murk

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I had commented on that in the first thread we had about the game in 09 -- Xardas banishing the gods from the world (if you take the "right" ending).

It seems they already had some ideas in place for a sequel and were forced to reform them for Risen. Not that I mind, if it means they get the freedom to make what Risen 2 is promising, all the better.

As of now, PB is the only game developer that has yet to fail me and without a doubt my favourite (of those that are still around).
 

Forest Dweller

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Mikayel said:
Also -- you end up with the bitch at the end no matter what route you take in the game.
Even if you tell Romanov you don't care about her and would rather split the treasure 50/50?
 

flushfire

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Dicksmoker said:
There are your basic combos, but after that there are lateral blows, and charge-up attacks, and parries and counter-parries, and then more elaborate combos. In addition timing is very important in chaining combos; do it right and they'll be faster, but it's quite tricky. All of these things make combat interesting and more dynamic, meaning it rarely gets boring. In fact I'd say it's the best melee combat in an ARPG that I've encountered.
Don't know what you find so good about it. Difficult timing + imbalance in favor of enemies != good combat to me. Risen's combat relies too heavily on player skill, imo. Parries and counter-parries are worthless because you are just exposing yourself to getting wtfpawned besides the fact that attacks right after can be blocked. Countering in the game as intended is just not that effective because enemies do not have the same recovery time as you do, so attacking right after they miss won't work, they'll just block, or worse attack in which case you will see that they also have attack priority, and that just sucks. Lateral blows are also worthless. In the end you only need to learn two things (melee-wise), the timing and charge-up. So all melee combat boils down to: Block/Sidestep/Dashback, charge-up, combo. That's it. For the entire game.
 

toro

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"Gothic 1 was a prototype and inferior in every way to Gothic 2, and Gothic 3 was...shit"
=================================
I don't have time to read such a piece of shit.

Gothic 1 > Gothic 2 > Risen > Gothic 3

Grow a fucking brain.
 

Forest Dweller

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flushfire said:
Don't know what you find so good about it. Difficult timing + imbalance in favor of enemies != good combat to me.
So you're saying you don't like it because it's too hard?

Risen's combat relies too heavily on player skill, imo.
Yes, and that's a good thing in an action rpg.

Parries and counter-parries are worthless because you are just exposing yourself to getting wtfpawned besides the fact that attacks right after can be blocked. Countering in the game as intended is just not that effective because enemies do not have the same recovery time as you do, so attacking right after they miss won't work, they'll just block, or worse attack in which case you will see that they also have attack priority, and that just sucks. Lateral blows are also worthless. In the end you only need to learn two things (melee-wise), the timing and charge-up. So all melee combat boils down to: Block/Sidestep/Dashback, charge-up, combo. That's it. For the entire game.
Parries, counter-parries, and lateral blows were all things I used effectively. They work, but it takes some practice. It sounds like you just didn't have the skill or couldn't be arsed to use them properly. And yes the charge up is probably the most effective technique but it takes some time to get it. And sidesteps work well against single opponents but even then you open yourself to getting hit. And with multiple opponents it's usually a bad idea since it opens your flanks/back to attack. Backdash is usually good for most things but there are some instances where it's a bad idea to use them, for instance if you have multiple enemies in a narrow corridor and don't want them getting out.
 

someone else

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Combat is fun but the A is too dumb, they often don't block the power charge attack. I will like it if the game gives 100% more hp to everybody, including yourself to make the fights last longer (but it may have to do with my 200 strength).
 

Forest Dweller

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They CAN'T block the power charge attack. The whole point is that it is an unblockable attack.
 

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