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[Ellester]

Actually Obediah is right in a way. Obsidian put the class in for those who dislike how magic is used in d&d. Many players of other games such as wizardry are not too happy with the 1 spell at level one deal (discounting level 0 spells and bonuses). This class will appeal to many who are not d&d rules freaks and just want to cast spells like an archer can shoot arrows.

After saying that, I’m still glad it’s in. More variety is better, imo. I doubt I’ll play one, but I would be pretty happy if there was a joinable npc who was a warlock class who I could use in my party.

 

[Volourn]

"I see Volourn has declared himself the arbiter of what is fun and what isn't."

Hahaha. This coming from a guy full of 'this game is great' and 'this game sucks' type of posts this is hypocritical to say the least.

Of course I am the arbiter of what is fun and what isn't fun. So is everybody else, dumbass.


"After saying that, I’m still glad it’s in. More variety is better, imo. I doubt I’ll play one, but I would be pretty happy if there was a joinable npc who was a warlock class who I could use in my party."

Agreed. More avriety the better. I hope Obsidian adds the Corpse Fucker, Sexy Animal, and Lesbo Lesbian Dancer classes. Oooo The variety!!!

 

[kingcomrade]

I created posts about whether I enjoyed a game or not, and get this, I actually support my arguments. You are not the arbiter of what is fun, nor do you ever support your arguments. "Oh, I already said this so just assume that I've explained it."

 

[Volourn]

A. If you can tell what an opinion is you are even dumber than I thought. I am the arbiter of what is fun. So are you. So is everyone else. Dumbass.

B. I support all my opinions. Just not when fools demand me too. Every opinion I have I have fully explained repeatedly. Dumbass.

 

[Sammael]

It's Volourn. Ignore him. He sometimes makes sense, but most of the time, he's just talking out of his ass.

Incidentally, when people on various RPG boards talk about what they'd change for 4E, one of the most frequently mentioned requests is to drop the Vancian system from the game altogether. Personally, while I don't particularly like the Vancian system, I don't hate it sufficiently to advocate removing it from D&D. I think adding options is always better than removing them. Oh, and while I enjoyed playing the warlock, wizard remains my favorite D&D class, with cleric right after it.

 

[Drakron]

The problem is the "one man army" mentality, D&D evolved from a strategy system and remains a party based system ... there is simply no way to make the game "single player" without making it ... well NWN.

Wizard is a "late bloom" class, it not very powerful at first levels but they are VERY powerful at later levels (the exact opposite of the Fighter class) ... there is nothing with that but on this age of cRPGs and MMORPGs with "THE QUEST FOR ULTIMATE BALANCE" people forget the base of the game is co-operation of characters of diferent classes.

 

[Volourn]

"Wizard is a "late bloom" class, it not very powerful at first levels"

False. A 1st level wizard can EAISLY kill a 1st level warrior. EASILY.

 

[Sammael]

D&D was, is, and will always a party-based game. That doesn't mean, however, that classess shouldn't be designed to be as "independent" as possible, because parties may vary greatly in composition. Bard/Druid/Monk/Ranger plays a lot differently than Cleric/Fighter/Rogue/Wizard.

 

[Sammael]

"Wizard is a "late bloom" class, it not very powerful at first levels"

False. A 1st level wizard can EAISLY kill a 1st level warrior. EASILY.

Please stop being a moron. A 1st level rogue with a heavy pick can easily kill a 5th level fighter in his sleep, but that doesn't mean the two are balanced against each other.

A 1st level wizard cannot easily kill a 1st level fighter. There are ways this can be accomplished, but it's not a particularly fair match-up.

 

[Drakron]

Volourn is somewhat correct ... Sleep can be a killer spell with the whole "coip-de-grace" mechanics.

Of course that is if the target is not immune to its effects (such as it being a elf).

As I said the system is party based and as I said "I PWN" mentality runs rampart these days ... I have no doubts that D&D Online will affect 4th edition and push it for a more "solo" role.

 

[Sammael]

Even if the fighter fails the save against sleep, it is questionable whether the wizard will be able to do enough damage to kill the fighter with the coup de grace. It's not an automatic kill, after all, and a 1st level fighter can easily have 13 hp, which is more than what a typical wizard can inflict. Not to mention the "raging dwarf barbarian with Con 20 and Dauntless feat" 24 hp-at-first-level combo.

 

[Volourn]

*yawn8 Pathetic warriors theink they're so tough but in the end they are morons. A wizard is at worst equal to a fighter if not outright supeior right from 1st level. Unless you are facing a stupid wizard with a spellbook limited to pathetic spells 9as far as combat is concerned).

Sammael proves once again that he is a moron. Not surprising. At least Drak'kon get the point I was making - warriors are not automatically 'better' than wizards even at 1st level spells.

I think Sammael left his imagination in his ass. Espiically since sleep is just one of many spells a 1st level wizard has access to that can make a fellow level 1 warrior cry.

 

[Drakron]

Actually it is, unless its for some odd he lacks the autonomy for the coup (like gelatinous cubes) but likely they would end up immune to sleep in the first place.

 

[Avin]

wizard killing a fighter in 1st level? HAHAHAHAHAhauahahjHAHAHAHAHAHhauahauHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

gimme a fighter
you can pick your wizard
roll initiative
try to kill me

 

[Sammael]

A coup de grace is an automatic hit and critical hit, after which the subject must make a Fort save (DC = 10 + damage dealt) or die. Thus, it is not an automatic kill. I've seen characters fail to kill their targets with a coup de grace before.

Volourn, the burden of proof is on you, not me. I am merely pointing out that your statement is not gospel truth, as you seem to be presenting it. There are people here who don't know much about D&D, and I'm afraid what your "interpretations" of the game may do to their innocent little minds. Dumbfuck.

 

[Avin]

sammael, don't waste your time, volourn never played p&p. he just pretends it based in nwn manual.

 

[Volourn]

Burden of proof would be on the one who commented the stupid theory that 1st level warrior is wayyyyy better > 1st level wizard.

This was/is proven wrong by the wizard using just one spell. Le'ts also not forget other spells that cna get the wizard a high ac, a famliar, summons, and other spells.

Sorry, you didn't prove me wrong and sure as heck didn't prove that anal theory that warrior > wizard right.

You lose. Not surprising though.

 

[bryce777]

Hmm, I just realzied volourn is the wicked witch of the west. Don't tell me I'm the last one.

 

[bryce777]

With all the mentions of dick sucking recently, perhaps we should change our site's tagline to something that speaks better of our oral fixation.

Sucking the jism of rpg goodness from the dick of mediocrity since 2000?

 

[Section8]

Cheers for that explanation, Sammael. From the sounds of it the Warlock would be great for D&D CRPGs, and like a way for P&P casters to join in the hacking and slashing.

I begs the question though - Why not adapt spell casting limitations for CRPG incarnations of D&D? Especially single character focused games like NWN. There has to be a better solution than just packing 8 hours of rest into 8 seconds.

 

[bryce777]

Ok, the wizard has to win initiative (even though his dex is probably lower) and then the fighter has to fail his saving throw (and I think it may even be a fort saving throw). Wel'll assume the coup de grace works.

Still looks like the wizard will only win about 1/4 of the time.

The wizard is useless if he gets attacked by 10 kobolbs one at a time,a nd the fighter is probably useless if he gets it from 20 at the same time.

So, it is all in the strategery. I don't mind the warlock class too much because it's hardly that powerful. It's also not as big of a strategy breaker as the overpowering of magic in general.

Fighters are not usless at higher levels, though; a lot of monsters are quite tough to face with magic alone such as various demons, dragons, etc.

 

[obediah]

The entire attraction of playing a PNP wizard was that you were weak, vulnerable and a hindrance to your party 90% of the time

That can only be attractive to masochists. The true attraction of the wizard class has always been the flexibility - the knowledge that there is no problem, no matter how difficult, that a wizard can't solve provided he has access to his spellbooks and enough time to study them.

You must have had a carebear DM. At low lvls a wizard is fragile with low hp/high ac (3E sorcers were a step in the dummifying, so I'll go with 2E), and a high priority target because of his potential firepower. With one or few spells, you can't cast them in every encounter, and if your campaign has challenges other than combat you can't just load up on sleep and magic missile. Picking the right spells and using them at the right time is challenging. A spellless wizard is the worst class at solving just about any problem that doesn't involve an intelligence check, and anything causing damage is much more likely to kill a wizard than any other class - thus the hindrance.

BTW, magic was never "doing the impossible" in D&D. If that was the case, then why the fuck were 99% of Gygax's player characters (and henchmen, and hirelings, and cohorts, and so on...) wizards? In D&D, magic is commonplace. Even more so in FR, and particularly in Eberron.

Just because something lets you do what would otherwise be impossible, doesn't mean it has to be rare. I'm not a fan of the magic glut that has gotten worse in worse over the past 20 years, but it's still the art of making fantastical things happen.

Hearing things like "heresy to DND" makes me shake my head in disbelief. Read the original Uneathed Arcana, for fuck's sake.

I bought it when it came out. Sure it was a munchkinfest of overpowered crap - but it didn't reduce D&D to gauntlet like NWN has.

False. A 1st level wizard can EAISLY kill a 1st level warrior. EASILY.

Yeah and my grandma could EAISLY kill a delta force team...if she had the launch code for an ICBM. But in most circumstances delta force ... and the fighter are going to win handily. Maybe in your gaming every wizard had sleep and magic missile at lvl 1, and no fighters were elves, and you always got to rest after every cast. Or it could just be your general dumbfuckery.

 

[Volourn]

"Ok, the wizard has to win initiative (even though his dex is probably lower) and then the fighter has to fail his saving throw (and I think it may even be a fort saving throw). Wel'll assume the coup de grace works."

You should know stuff before posting.

1. Why would a wizard automatically have lower dex than a fighter? Netx to intelligence, dex i s probably the most useful ability for a wizard. Meanwhile, a fighter will likely focus on str, con, and even intelligence for skill points. Uusually, except for finesse fighters, dex would likely be max of dex12 (for powergaming fullplate wearers).

2. Sleep is a will save. Which, if you forget, a warrior sucks at.


"Yeah and my grandma could EAISLY kill a delta force team...if she had the launch code for an ICBM. But in most circumstances delta force ... and the fighter are going to win handily. Maybe in your gaming every wizard had sleep and magic missile at lvl 1, and no fighters were elves, and you always got to rest after every cast. Or it could just be your general dumbfuckery."

You are stupid. Comparing a grandma to a level 1 wizard, and comparing a pathetic level 1 warrior to a team of delta force trained freaks with guns.

The fact you need to do so proves that you need to stretch things to give the advantages to the pathetiuc warrior says it all. Espicially your lame way of throwing elves into it.

Of course, you forget useful level 1 spells stretch beyond sleep. Magic missle is probably one of the most uselsss offensive spell a level 1 wizard could memorize. The fact you think it's useful proves you have no idea what you are talking about.

Moron.


"So, it is all in the strategery."

You win. :D

 

[obediah]

"Yeah and my grandma could EAISLY kill a delta force team...if she had the launch code for an ICBM. But in most circumstances delta force ... and the fighter are going to win handily. Maybe in your gaming every wizard had sleep and magic missile at lvl 1, and no fighters were elves, and you always got to rest after every cast. Or it could just be your general dumbfuckery."

You are stupid. Comparing a grandma to a level 1 wizard, and comparing a pathetic level 1 warrior to a team of delta force trained freaks with guns.

Man you are thick - maybe as thick as one of Cleve's giant 44' biceps. Basically my example shows that A being able to easily kill B under a special set of conditions doesn't prove that A is more powerful/useful than B in a general sense. Building a lvl 1 wiz to kill a fighter and a lvl 1 warrior to kill a wizard and running a few hundred mock battles is a pointless exercise that gives little insight into either's durability or value to an adventuring party.

The fact you need to do so proves that you need to stretch things to give the advantages to the pathetiuc warrior says it all.

No, the fact that your little assumption holds in such a ridiculous comparison shows that it's junk. A football team could drown in few dozen spoons of water - but in a gangfight which would you want to back you up?

Espicially your lame way of throwing elves into it.

Yeah, that was a low trick, it's not like anyone plays them or anything. Don't make me get really nasty and point out that any lvl 1 wizard pulling his weight in a party is going to have used his spell or have a non-combat spell memorized a good portion of the time. That's gonna be a good fight.

Of course, you forget useful level 1 spells stretch beyond sleep. Magic missle is probably one of the most uselsss offensive spell a level 1 wizard could memorize. The fact you think it's useful proves you have no idea what you are talking about.

I haven't played much D&D in the past 14 years, I'm not even sure I can remember any lvl 1 spells other than sleep, magic missile, and detect magic. However, I'm pretty sure there wasn't "Kill lvl 1 fighter", or anything else could be counted on to equalize the rest of the combat. You're getting 0-1 casting attempts so it's got to be a good one. Is there one that does a good 5-10 pts of damage with no to hit roll, or otherwise incapacitates an opponent?

Moron.

durn, you got me.

 

[MrBrown]

I remember a PnP session where the Wizard (me) and a spellcaster-Cleric build did some stupid stuff and ended up fighting a Monk few levels higher than us in close combat. We got lucky and he failed a save against a spell that made him helpless, so we started coup-de-gracing him. After 3 or 4 rounds, he was dead of the damage; he made all his saves.