So I was looking at Sorcerer's Place today...

[DwarvenFood]

Why would a game company post on a relatively niche site that allows its members to freely criticize every aspect of their game when they can simply hear only praise on their own self made site?

Why would one have to exclude the other ?

 

[DraQ]

There's a reason DraQ rhymes with fag

You mean all these years pronouncing it as "Drack" has been wrong?

Wait, why were you pronouncing it at all?


Other than that, "Drack" would be pretty close.

Surf Solar
Because you might not want to be associated with a site where every third word is "nigger"?

 

[deus101]

Its threads like this that makes me dig up all the devs user accounts, kinda trite though, is there no list collecting every forum account tied to a dev?



Seems alot of them disapeared around 2009.

 

[Vault Dweller]

This is the correct answer. It's enough just to look into the past and see what happened to Gaider, the CDPR guy, and that other Bioware dev that was actualy kind of cool but I forgot his name.

No, the correct answer is that developers are egotistical weirdos who cannot handle ANY kind of criticism. Gaider and Woo constantly make fun of the Codex, a place full of haters who would never, ever say anything good about Bioware games, while conveniently forgetting that DAO was voted best RPG of 2009 and that one of the Codex official reviews praised it to high heavens, while ME2 is beloved by a large number of Codexers. EXACTLY the same attitude as Vogel, who kept on going about how everyone here hates his games despite picking quotes from the SAME thread where half the posts praised his games. At least Vogel IIRC was more reasonable after he calmed down; Bioware couldn't handle any criticism even on their own turf. Anyone remember the DA2 forum they created only for people who bought the game, thinking that this would get rid of all criticism? boy were they wrong... what about Laidlaw's "But it's not, so it's not?"

In short: devs posting here, great. Devs posting here at the expense of everyone sucking their cock and no one daring to voice any kind of criticism? fuck off.

Developers are egotistical weirdos who cannot handle ANY kind of criticism? Such a convenient answer, Sceptic.

Dave Gaider was posting here during the NWN period. NWN at that time was the most hated game on the Codex. It was criticized by everyone but Volourn. Yet Gaider came and stayed. Same with the Bethesda developers. True, they were here before the release, but Oblivion was already criticized (based on what was known about the game). Yes, Bethesda took the criticism personally, but the developers were gone before that. Maybe some idiots wishing death and cancer on the developers and promising to sodomize their wives with a dildo had some to do with that.

In short: the Codex was always critical yet it didn't keep developers from dropping by and participating in discussions.

 

[Vault Dweller]

But the fact of the matter is, as others have pointed out, that developers don't go into a forum expecting constructive criticism, they go in expecting massive adulation.

a) It's not a fact at all - see Gaider and many others showing up during the peaks of criticism.
b) Saying that all developers are the same is silly by default.

They can get that on their own forum, which they can moderate however they want. Why would they go ANYWHERE where they will be met with anything less than having their cocks sucked?

Because some take pride in what they do and want to argue the merits of their games and explains why some things were done a certain way. Because not every developer is an attention whore and some are interested in constructive criticism, which is something the Codex used to excel at. Because some developers enjoyed the quality of discussions.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

There's a reason DraQ rhymes with fag

You mean all these years pronouncing it as "Drack" has been wrong?

I've always pronounced it 'drag'

as in "Drag Queen"?

 

[Angthoron]

I'd like to offer a different option, VD - yes, on one hand, Codex is much more hostile and "personal" in its insults these days, however, there could be another reason the devs won't come here to listen the criticism any longer, something other than Codex being hostile and offensive.

And that is simply that they can't do anything about said criticism. They can't address it in their games. They do not have the creative freedom to change the course of their games according to Codex - or anyone else's criticism. Why bother reading Codex' pissed posts and reply to those, when you can't do a thing about it to begin with? And if you have no right to tell that "Hey guys, you know, our managers told us that this is what we're sticking with"? Why the hell would they waste time on trying to argue for merits then?

Maybe the devs are still here, posting in secret, under different aliases, not revealing their affiliations - that's not at all impossible. But it's simply pointless for them to discuss game design with the Codex since they won't have the freedom to adjust their games anyway.

 

[Vault Dweller]

I'd like to offer a different option, VD - yes, on one hand, Codex is much more hostile and "personal" in its insults these days, however, there could be another reason the devs won't come here to listen the criticism any longer, something other than Codex being hostile and offensive.

And that is simply that they can't do anything about said criticism. They can't address it in their games. They do not have the creative freedom to change the course of their games according to Codex - or anyone else's criticism. Why bother reading Codex' pissed posts and reply to those, when you can't do a thing about it to begin with?

They could before?

However, I disagree. There were plenty of new games that the Codex enjoyed: MotB, the Witcher games, Risen, Divinity 2, New Vegas, Deus Ex HR (shite, but the locals seem to be enjoying it), etc. So, there is definitely something to talk about.

 

[Angthoron]

I'd like to offer a different option, VD - yes, on one hand, Codex is much more hostile and "personal" in its insults these days, however, there could be another reason the devs won't come here to listen the criticism any longer, something other than Codex being hostile and offensive.

And that is simply that they can't do anything about said criticism. They can't address it in their games. They do not have the creative freedom to change the course of their games according to Codex - or anyone else's criticism. Why bother reading Codex' pissed posts and reply to those, when you can't do a thing about it to begin with?

They could before?

However, I disagree. There were plenty of new games that the Codex enjoyed: MotB, the Witcher games, Risen, Divinity 2, New Vegas, Deus Ex HR (shite, but the locals seem to be enjoying it), etc. So, there is definitely something to talk about.

Yes, they could before. Before gaming became multi-billion business owned by media conglomerates and people so far removed from gaming they've no idea how to even play one. Let's say you released your AoD at last, as an indie/minor label dev and would subsequently receive some flack from your target audience. In order to keep that audience, you'd improve upon that feature. You would have to react.

Now let's consider you publishing your game with a 100 million USD budget, a 100-person team, an 8-month dev cycle and a board of directors and external SMEs to appease. You release a game that sells 3 million copies worldwide. You receive some flack from one of the demographics.

Do you A) address it or B) do what Bioware and Bethesda have been doing with their recent sequels?

The answer is quite self-evident. You just tell one of the demographics to fuck off, even if YOU personally hate to do it.


(Also, DEHR is, to me, less shite than DA: O but let's not go there. Tastes and preferences are never absolute anyway.)

 

[DragoFireheart]

Why would a game company post on a relatively niche site that allows its members to freely criticize every aspect of their game when they can simply hear only praise on their own self made site?

Why would one have to exclude the other ?

- Because they are inherently exclusive from each other. Let members post what they want and the developers won't get only praise. Moderate the posters and you can get only praise but then people won't want to try to express themselves out of fear of being banned.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Yes, they could before. Before gaming became multi-billion business owned by media conglomerates and people so far removed from gaming they've no idea how to even play one.

It happened before the Codex was created, in my opinion.

Now let's consider you publishing your game with a 100 million USD budget, a 100-person team, an 8-month dev cycle and a board of directors and external SMEs to appease. You release a game that sells 3 million copies worldwide. You receive some flack from one of the demographics.

Do you A) address it or B) do what Bioware and Bethesda have been doing with their recent sequels?

The answer is quite self-evident. You just tell one of the demographics to fuck off, even if YOU personally hate to do it.

Things are rarely so black and white.

First, not every RPG is a AAA game with a 100 mil budget and 100 people. There are other games and there are expansions to AAA titles (like MotB or New Vegas or even Dead Money). Second, just because one's working on a AAA title doesn't mean that this game shouldn't have some Codex-approved features. Again, see Deus Ex HR. It's clearly a AAA title, yet it has multiple paths, pretty good persuasion multi-level dialogues (too bad it's a mini-game), options to fail, and even hacking is stat-based. There IS some room for a dialogue.

 

[Angthoron]

Now let's consider you publishing your game with a 100 million USD budget, a 100-person team, an 8-month dev cycle and a board of directors and external SMEs to appease. You release a game that sells 3 million copies worldwide. You receive some flack from one of the demographics.

Do you A) address it or B) do what Bioware and Bethesda have been doing with their recent sequels?

The answer is quite self-evident. You just tell one of the demographics to fuck off, even if YOU personally hate to do it.

Things are rarely so black and white.

First, not every RPG is a AAA game with a 100 mil budget and 100 people. There are other games and there are expansions to AAA titles (like MotB or New Vegas or even Dead Money). Second, just because one's working on a AAA title doesn't mean that this game shouldn't have some Codex-approved features. Again, see Deus Ex HR. It's clearly a AAA title, yet it has multiple paths, pretty good persuasion multi-level dialogues (too bad it's a mini-game), options to fail, and even hacking is stat-based. There IS some room for a dialogue.

Well, naturally it's not pure black and white, after all, if it were, Larian wouldn't be commenting positively about the Codex in their posts on their own forums, but then, the Codex doesn't actually rabidly hate Larian and all they stand for, unlike most of the AAA-rated game studios.

Thing is, many actually lament the lack of major dev attention for the Codex (especially the positive sort of attention), and frankly, it's not very surprising. AAA trends for a rather lengthy period now have been about simplifying every, or nearly every aspect of gaming, and it's been one of the bigger thing Codex has been railing against. With the said Bio and Beth examples from my previous post, it's easier to chop off the "miniature" "hardcore" demographics in favour of attempting to attract more mass-consumers, easier and more lucrative, and it's exactly what they've done. After that, why do they need to talk to us? Do you feel urgent desires to talk to your ex whom you unceremoniously dumped in the middle of the street to have rampant sex with blonde Swedish triplet contortionists? Probably not. They probably wouldn't either. How would that ex feel? Probably similar to Codex' general sentiments.

What you mention about the recent AAAs is quite curious though - I'm frankly somewhat surprised with the turn of events and hopefully a change in dev trends. DEHR is quite interesting due to this, it's definitely not a Jesus of the RPG (I'm not entirely in the mind that it is an RPG, but hey, the bar for what's an RPG and what isn't has been lowered by a lot in the recent years, so whatever), or shooter genre, and yet it manages to do many things right that many others have recently done terribly wrong. There's exploration, when recently it's been mainly cut out, there's stat requirements when they've been deemed "uncool", there's other things that have been considered "untrendy", and yet, the game sells extremely well and is a critical success. Now, as I said, it's not a perfect game by any means, but if it becomes a trend-setter for the future in the sense of games increasing complexity again (or making sharply different difficulty levels), I'm all for it.


P.S: Sorry if I'm a bit jumbled here, too much work and coffee.




Edit/P.P.S:

What would McEwan say to reassure disgruntled Bullfrog fans?

"You're never going to please everyone."

That just illustrates my point.

 

[Sceptic]

b) Saying that all developers are the same is silly by default.

I see you still like to selectively quote out of context. I named several developers who behave differently in the very post you quoted.

As for Gaider using to post here - people change. Gaider's a wonderful example of this. I used to like the guy, even as I questioned some of his design and writing decisions. He was friendly, open to criticism, open to discussion, and his posts were quite good reads. The difference between them circa 2001 and now says it all, really.

Now, am I going to defend the creepy e-stalking that went on in here? absolutely not. IIRC Gaider had a creepy guy following him in every thread, and maybe that really is the reason he left, and in this case it would really be a shame. Or maybe he left because he wasn't too pleased with the Codex's manner of calling developers/publishers they didn't like "full of shit" and "prince of lies"?

 

[Vault Dweller]

b) Saying that all developers are the same is silly by default.

I see you still like to selectively quote out of context.

Oh, sorry, my bad.

"I didn't mean to imply that every positive commentary was cocksucking (come on, I'm not skyway, give me a break). But the fact of the matter is, as others have pointed out, that developers don't go into a forum expecting constructive criticism, they go in expecting massive adulation. They can get that on their own forum, which they can moderate however they want. Why would they go ANYWHERE where they will be met with anything less than having their cocks sucked? why would they settle for "just" positive criticism? Just look at the DA2 debacle. Our metacritic score is low? oh it's just 4chan spamming, it CANNOT BE because people don't like our game. Negative criticism of DA2 on our forums? oh it's just those haters from RPG Codex, it CANNOT BE people who actually bought the game. Negative criticism of DA2 in the locked forum only available to those who have in fact bought the game? get real, this would only happen if DA2 was disliked by those who bought it. But it's not, so it's not.

You're gonna try to convince me these people stay away because they can't be bothered to sift through criticism?"
...

"No, the correct answer is that developers are egotistical weirdos who cannot handle ANY kind of criticism. Gaider and Woo constantly make fun of the Codex, a place full of haters who would never, ever say anything good about Bioware games, while conveniently forgetting that DAO was voted best RPG of 2009 and that one of the Codex official reviews praised it to high heavens, while ME2 is beloved by a large number of Codexers. EXACTLY the same attitude as Vogel, who kept on going about how everyone here hates his games despite picking quotes from the SAME thread where half the posts praised his games. At least Vogel IIRC was more reasonable after he calmed down; Bioware couldn't handle any criticism even on their own turf. Anyone remember the DA2 forum they created only for people who bought the game, thinking that this would get rid of all criticism? boy were they wrong... what about Laidlaw's "But it's not, so it's not?"

In short: devs posting here, great. Devs posting here at the expense of everyone sucking their cock and no one daring to voice any kind of criticism? fuck off."

What's with "selective quoting" crap, Sceptic? I've quoted what you said. You can either ignore my post or address my comments.

As for Gaider using to post here - people change. Gaider's a wonderful example of this. I used to like the guy, even as I questioned some of his design and writing decisions. He was friendly, open to criticism, open to discussion, and his posts were quite good reads. The difference between them circa 2001 and now says it all, really.

Care to elaborate?

Now, am I going to defend the creepy e-stalking that went on in here? absolutely not. IIRC Gaider had a creepy guy following him in every thread, and maybe that really is the reason he left, and in this case it would really be a shame. Or maybe he left because he wasn't too pleased with the Codex's manner of calling developers/publishers they didn't like "full of shit" and "prince of lies"?

First, Pete never posted here, so it's not the issue that we're discussing. We're talking about developers who used to post and the overall atmosphere (i.e. whether or not it encourages discussions and exchange of ideas).

Second, yes, I called Pete full of shit and the father of lies, because he did lie and it was proven. Nowhere in my posts have I suggested that we should be all smiles and shit and if developers are caught lying, we should overlook it politely. I was talking about developers who don't lie and who are interested in having a normal discussion. I hope that much is clear.

Gaider left not because of Warden but because he was called fat piece of shit, told to shut up, called pathetic, retarded, and such. Most of it was in a thread that had nothing to do with games he worked on.

 

[Melcar]

Heh, fat piece of shit.

 

[VentilatorOfDoom]

Last time I've seen Obsidian devs posting here (apart from Annie and perhaps Monty) was this thread, enjoy:
http://www.rpgcodex.net/phpBB/viewtopic ... sc&start=0

 

[Forest Dweller]

I don't really want to get into this whole debate, but I'd like to point out that there is a difference between developers visiting our forum and developers actually posting here, and the lack of the latter does not abrogate the existence of the former. I know Chris Avellone has said he regularly visits the Codex, and I think Josh Sawyer said it too. There may be more than you think. And honestly I feel more comfortable talking about a developer openly, whether positively or negatively, if they're not regularly posting here. Maybe this is a good thing.

But I'm more interested in what DU said about getting donations from big developers. Which companies are they? Also how do you know it's them?

And Grunker, look at every other English word ending with a "q." Antique, boutique, opaque, etc...It's always a "k" sound.

 

[Surf Solar]

Surf Solar
Because you might not want to be associated with a site where every third word is "nigger"?

I guess you are right, but I honestly dont recall a thread in GRPG lately where each third word was nigger. Sure, you sometimes have the occassional edgy guy, but the discussions are pretty calm. The workshop is even better, as said besides Vince's forum I've never seen so many good discussions, honest/skilled replies or even good feedback/suggestions for showcased games/mods there. That's why I love this place, you can actually learn quite a lot here.

Ofcourse there is gd, but again, why should a dev care about that subforum?

 

[Sceptic]

What's with "selective quoting" crap, Sceptic? I've quoted what you said. You can either ignore my post or address my comments.

I don't know what it is wit the selective quoting crap. You tell me, since this you just did it AGAIN by conveniently leaving out the relevant paragraph. But whatever, I really don't want to go into an argument about quoting and I want to keep this as civilized as possible*. That paragraph you overlooked was my own counterpoint to my point, in a way, hence the example of the Larian interview, where they could handle criticism and offer reasonable discussion for why they did this or that and why it was or wasn't a good idea. And if Larian can, why not other developers? (yes I know you've already answered this, but I was rephrasing my earlier point here)

First, Pete never posted here, so it's not the issue that we're discussing. We're talking about developers who used to post and the overall atmosphere (i.e. whether or not it encourages discussions and exchange of ideas).

I think it's very related to the issue at hand. First, ARE all deveopers only interested in an atmosphere that encourages discussions and exchange of ideas? You seem to think at least most do, I don't think that. Second, do developers feel that an environement where they can be called liars is an atmosphere they want to be part of? Sure you can say it was true and proven, and I fully agree. But that's not the point, the point is, is it insulting? You could argue that it's not because it was true, but fact is, being called a liar is insulting. Pete himself never posted, but other Bethesda guys who did might've been gently (or not so gently) told not to post (at least as "official" Bethesda representatives) on the 'dex, or they might've simply decided that being called liars themselves was something to avoid at all costs.

Now I'm not saying that's the reason they all left (feel free to call me a flip-flopper over my previous, harsher position) but unless I can see a particular thread that made them leave for another reason I don't see why that's not a highly likely reason.

I hope that much is clear.

Absolutely, and I never claimed you said otherwise. (if I seemed to imply it then my bad)

Gaider left not because of Warden but because he was called fat piece of shit, told to shut up, called pathetic, retarded, and such. Most of it was in a thread that had nothing to do with games he worked on.

I'm a bit torn about this. On the one hand, if it was a typical GD thread, then Gaider should've known better, and he wasn't treated any differently than people treat each other in GD (not that I think that's good, but then there's a reason I stay away from such threads) and I'm tempted to think "he should've stayed out of GD in the first place if he wasn't prepared for that kind of shit-flinging". But if he was singled-out for abuse because he was a developer, or if it was in response to a GRPG or GG thread, then that's pretty sad. Out of curiosity, do you have a link to that thread, or remember what it was about so I can search for it?

* I like you, VD. I really do, sometimes against my better judgement and even if some of your posts make me go completely . But I have to admit you really rile me up sometimes, without even trying. I think you're the only poster in this place who can do this too, I don't know how you do it so effortlessly. Part of me rages when that happens even as the other is in awe.

 

[Orgasm]

 

[Surf Solar]

Thank you for this very thoughtful post.

 

[Xor]

Show/Hide :: Click here to show/hide the hidden post made by Orgasm.

 

[Monocause]

To the apologists: geez guys, get real. Only a masochist would stay on a forum where tiny bits of constructive criticism are drowned in an ocean of personal insults and extremely vulgar language in general. It's not the devs who are primadonnas, it's some of the codexers that act as if they just got free of parental supervision for the first time in their lives or have to compensate for having a small cock.

The Codex is not the only place in the world that can provide an interesting insight into gaming and there is really no reason to expect a dev (or any other normal and relatively sane person) to "take the heat". Also, being civil is not 'cocksucking' and when people talk with each other they expect to observe a degree of mutual respect. If they don't they can easily go and discuss stuff with someone else without listening to insults.

Imagine you're at your workplace and there's a meeting planned. You go there and start your part with "Fuck you people, all these ideas are fucking retarded, I have an idea that's fucking 50% more effective you cunts. If you can't take the heat get out of the kitchen.". You can wager that not only your idea would get ignored but you'd probably get sacked the same day, and for good reason. The reason being you're a twat who's never going to get along with people.

I don't know what's worse: is it the fact that I'm making a lecture on basic propriety and manners or the fact that such a lecture seems sorely needed. Or the fact that it's, like, the third time I'm making a post like this and it's bound to fail at changing anything here.

 

[Cassidy]

Imagine you're at your workplace and there's a meeting planned.

Depending on the type of workplace, the only kind of acceptable "opinions" would be like posting a review of Oblivion in Bethesda Forums without being banned for "trolling".

Nah, where there is money involved honesty almost always falls flat, because more often than not you're paid not only to work, but also, in a implicit manner, to either be a parrot of everything the people on the high claim as "truth" where you work at or just say nothing and keep your opinions to yourself lest they be used against you by an opportunistic climber. Therefore the analogy is mostly invalid. Not that "FUCK THIS IS POPAMOLE SHIT GO FUCK YOUR DOG" is a good way of explaining why Dragon Age 2 sucks either.

I think a better comparison is a debate in a TV show between politicians, priests of different religions, coaches, etc. Someone who just expresses his PoV on such debate by spamming memes and swear words would be ignored by most of the audience.

Nevertheless, it's no secret that Bethesda and Bioware devs prefer places where they are almost always universally lauded as AWESOME. That is a much more significant reason to their departure than only personal insults and swearing. Stop the lies, start the truth.

 

[fizzelopeguss]

Too many fuckwits from east european shittystans posting here. Bucktoothed asiatics flinging feces around once hallowed halls.

 

[Jaesun]

What Developer would we even want to be here? All the AAA Main Stream Developers make is fucking shit action games with the word "RPG" tacked onto their games packaging.

A number of Indie devs I would not mind seeing here, though I could see why they would never come here.