the twilight princess bit where you're in the sewers

[kingcomrade]

overall twilight princess isn't that memorable if you played ocarina before it, but the part where you first turn into a wolf and have to navigate a flooded sewer system ended up having an emotional impact. the heavy rain and heavy water plus the music ended up working together well. when I think of when video game music made a difference, this is usually the chapter of a game I think of.

Anyone who has actually played the game know what I'm talking about? If you haven't played the game honestly why bother replying, I'll call you retarded.

I played this game about...2 or 3 years ago, but I this one of the most memorable sections of any game I've played.

 

[Jasede]

little weird because I usually share your taste in video game music-

I didn't like that section at all. Just another stupid sewer level. It was the part where I gave up on it on my first try. I don't know. I don't even remember there being any rain, and I only played this game again two years ago.

Honestly, TP had nothing memorable to me. I have to strain my memory to even barely recall the dungeons or areas it had, with questionable success.



Do you think it's because it wasn't as good as OoT or LttP, or do you think it's because we played those first, or is it because we're too old to be moved by this the way we used to be?

 

[Aldebaran]

overall twilight princess isn't that memorable if you played ocarina before it, but the part where you first turn into a wolf and have to navigate a flooded sewer system ended up having an emotional impact. the heavy rain and heavy water plus the music ended up working together well. when I think of when video game music made a difference, this is usually the chapter of a game I think of.

Anyone who has actually played the game know what I'm talking about? If you haven't played the game honestly why bother replying, I'll call you retarded.

I played this game about...2 or 3 years ago, but I this one of the most memorable sections of any game I've played.

I wouldn't say it is one of most memorable moments of any game, but it is certainly the most memorable moment of Twilight Princess. It is also, unfortunately, the only piece of music that I can remember from TP that is not a remix (I suppose the field theme too, but I never really cared for it). Which is a pretty poor showing for Nintendo.

It is too bad that the game tried way too hard to be Ocarina of Time. Sure, Nintendo threw in a bit of the weirdness of Majora's Mask, but it wasn't enough to make it a unique game.

The Wind Waker handled being a throwback to OoT in a much better fashion. It had plenty of references to the events, but had a very different take on almost everything.

Do you think it's because it wasn't as good as OoT or LttP, or do you think it's because we played those first, or is it because we're too old to be moved by this the way we used to be?

No, I think it is genuinely one of the worst Zelda games, and is the worst 3D Zelda game. I am not saying it is a bad game, but it lacked the atmosphere, originality, and overall design that the previous game had.

I think one of the problems with the game is that, when graphics technology was... less sophisticated, designers had to rely on everything else to create a sense of being somewhere. They had to create original music, play around with the lighting, hint at something instead of showing it (as it would end up looking clunky), etc. Twilight Princess could just try and get an easy ride on its graphics, but the problem is that graphics are never enough, and TP never had much in that area anyways.

 

[Forest Dweller]

Most memorable section of the game for me was the puzzle with the statues on the blocks which mimicked your wolf movements, because that really gave me a run for my money.

 

[Admiral jimbob]

I liked TP a lot, way more than OoT, and I genuinely don't know why. OoT is a far better game, I just can't get into it. I know it's not that long, and I can finish just about anything I play, but I just get overwhelmingly bored of OoT around the Forest Temple.

 

[deuxhero]

Eh, that part just struck me very linear (it wasn't a proper dungeon, just a wolf mode tutorial). Pretty much a summery of the whole game.


We all know MM is better than OoT anyways.

 

[I.C. Wiener]

The sound design in that game was excellent. The wolf's breathing, the cuff chain clinking, footsteps against all the different kind of floor textures, wind, water, moaning background ambience, those dissonant beeps the dark world enemies make... I found the sewer section very memorable as well: while I was busy with something else, my brother was playing it and I for the first and only time ever noted that the game had excellent sound effects. Had no intention of playing it at all up until then.

The rest of the game was pretty obviously rushed from the end of the desert dungeon on, when the atmosphere dried up and you had to do stupid shit like a wild west shootout and making soup for yetis.

 

[sea]

Twilight Princess is great, for the most part, and actually has quite a few memorable moments for me. Lake Hylia, Zora's Domain, Hyrule Castle Town, and the overworld as a whole are all very well realized. Out of all the Zelda games released in the 3D era, I think Twilight Princess actually sticks out the most for me in terms of its environment design. Sure, it's not really that original, but some of the scenes and locations are just really cool, and packed with great art and huge amounts of detail (for a Wii game, anyway).

While I found the plot to be, for the most part, kind of barren and uninvolving, there were a few moments that struck with me. The one wimpy kid slowly following in Link's footsteps to become a warrior was a nice subplot and character arc that wasn't shoved down the player's throat, and resonated precisely because of that. I also really liked Midna as a character - she was well-written, mysterious and generally just entertaining to have around, unlike some of the other Zelda companions in the past, and when she gets her powers drained (or whatever it was, don't quite remember) during the middle section of the game, with that really nice piano remix of the theme playing in the background, that really struck a chord. There's a simple dichotomy in having a genuinely likeable and helpful character suddenly become helpless and dependent on the player, and it makes you appreciate that character more in the long run as an actual "person" rather than just a plot device. The way the soundtrack and the tone of the game reflected that really helped the moment stand out.

Ultimately, Twilight Princess is kind of just an Ocarina of Time clone, but I think it does a way better job in creating interesting characters, environments and so on. I really don't mind the fact that it borrows so heavily if only because it so frequently improves upon the original. Ocarina of Time is still excellent, of course, and its dungeons were a both more memorable and better designed, but everything else around it looks quaint next to Twilight Princess' genuinely epic scale.

Also, Skyward Sword looks like it's going to suck nuts. Art style is okay, but the focus on the gimmicky sword fighting (which looks like it will be fun and challenging for about 5 minutes), the motion controls for everything (that new beetle thing = remote control boomerang, big fucking deal), and the downright tame puzzle design seen so far (hit the red switch with the red item? shit, this is difficult!) really has me worried that they're going to pull another Phantom Hourglass, i.e. dumbed down shit because Nintendo feel Zelda is too difficult for the masses to grasp, and would prefer high-impact gimmicks over quality gameplay. The last few Zelda games have suffered from that problem, and Skyward Sword looks like it's shaping up to be just like them.

 

[deuxhero]

The one wimpy kid slowly following in Link's footsteps to become a warrior was a nice subplot and character arc that wasn't shoved down the player's throat, and resonated precisely because of that.

Who?

 

[sea]

The one wimpy kid slowly following in Link's footsteps to become a warrior was a nice subplot and character arc that wasn't shoved down the player's throat, and resonated precisely because of that.

Who?

Shot in the dark because it's been a while since I've played it, but maybe Colin or something? The kid with the bowl cut from Ordon Village. The details of the whole arc are a bit fuzzy, though, so I might have got something mixed up or misremembered.

 

[Aldebaran]

We all know MM is better than OoT anyways.

Agreed, name me one other Zelda game that has something as messed up as meeting a grieving plant father who thinks that you look familiar--because you are wearing the murdered soul of his son as mask.

Also, the three day repeat gives you a good view into the secondary character's lives thanks to their schedule. Not to mention that Clock Town's music tells the story of the city on each day. There are tons of awesome little details in that game.

Great game.

 

[Luzur]

i quit around the Desert Town.

 

[hoopy]

I also really liked Midna as a character - she was well-written, mysterious and generally just entertaining to have around, unlike some of the other Zelda companions in the past, and when she gets her powers drained (or whatever it was, don't quite remember) during the middle section of the game, with that really nice piano remix of the theme playing in the background, that really struck a chord.

That was definitely my favorite part of the game.

My least favorite part was any dungeon. I did not like them one bit, and always wanted to leave as soon as possible. Too much boring puzzle solving.

Also, Skyward Sword looks like it's going to suck nuts. Art style is okay, but the focus on the gimmicky sword fighting (which looks like it will be fun and challenging for about 5 minutes), the motion controls for everything (that new beetle thing = remote control boomerang, big fucking deal), and the downright tame puzzle design seen so far (hit the red switch with the red item? shit, this is difficult!) really has me worried that they're going to pull another Phantom Hourglass, i.e. dumbed down shit because Nintendo feel Zelda is too difficult for the masses to grasp, and would prefer high-impact gimmicks over quality gameplay. The last few Zelda games have suffered from that problem, and Skyward Sword looks like it's shaping up to be just like them.

Sean Malstrom has talked about this a lot, and he places the blame mostly on Aonuma. This post is probably the most comprehensive one he's written on the subject. I think the crux of the issue is the following statement by Aonuma:

The Legend of Zelda was not a game that suited me. So what kind of games did suit me? Those would be text-based adventures. For someone like me who enjoyed reading stories, these were games that allowed you to participate in the story and letting you experience the joy of seeing your own thoughts and actions affect the progression of the story. Plus, these games don’t require fast reflexes and don’t require traditional gaming skills. So, I thought that if I were going to make games, I would like to make this type of game.

 

[sea]

Sean Malstrom has talked about this a lot, and he places the blame mostly on Aonuma. This post is probably the most comprehensive one he's written on the subject. I think the crux of the issue is the following statement by Aonuma:

Interesting read, but wasn't Aonuma the one who was responsible for the direction Majora's Mask took? I agree with a lot of people that it's by far the best of the 3D Zelda games. I dunno, maybe now that he's no longer a scrappy underdog looking to take Zelda in strange new directions, he's mellowed out and is more concerned with just giving people "fun" experiences than ones that are interesting, emotionally affecting and challenging. That, or maybe he's always been one of those guys with a good creative mind, but one that needs to be tempered and moderated by someone a bit more realistic and down to earth.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

Yes, that is noticeable in the quote about him talking with his son. Though to be honest, "trying to entertain his son" seems like a better way to try and come up with a good game than "making a product for the mass market", like Malstrom says.

I say: “Replace the bombshop with a guy who says nothing but one line. Spend the development time on what the player can do.”

This ‘logic’ of the ‘Miyamoto Test’, that apparently Nintendo thinks is ‘good’, is a big fat failure compared to how things are done in the Western World. Think of the intricate schedules of NPCs, of the positions of the moons, the fleshed out characters of the Ultima games.It was this intricacy and fleshed out, logical, world that led to the creation of the MMORPG. The ‘world of Zelda’ is so laughable and doesn’t even make any logical sense.

getting strong asperger vibes here

 

[Aldebaran]

It is Aonuma who is the force behind Modern Zelda being Puzzelda (just a bunch of puzzles). When complaints about this are brought up to Miyamoto, he snarls and says, “But puzzles have always been part of Zelda! Since the first Zelda!” That is not what the complaint is about. But what is going on here is Miyamoto is protecting his pet.

No... I think that is exactly what the complaints are about. Unless the complaints are simply about the fact that a guy named Aonuma is on the Zelda team.

The problem is that he is including puzzles.----> Puzzles (simple ones, granted) were always part of Zelda.----> Why won't you address the complaints? Stop protecting your pet!

What I find funny is that Nintendo thinks Ocarina’s “7 million sales” is ‘high’. This is not that interesting for a game released on a game console, with high name recognition, in 1998. Final Fantasy VII sold around 8-9 million copies. And Final Fantasy was never popular in the West. Zelda always was popular in the West!

This guy is just making shit up at every turn, it is incredible.

He spends a disturbing amount of time referring to a video game as a product, talking about the will of the market (or the way he spins it), and customer satisfaction.

We’re saying this is boring crap that shouldn’t be in Zelda in the first place. What Zelda is about is Link being a swordsman and kicking ass.

I don't even know how to respond.

And this is why Japanese men no longer marry or make families (there’s nothing in it for them). The role of the father is no more. And this is spiraling Japan into a baby crisis and a shrinking of the population. Nature will correct society in time… it always does.

...The fuck does this have to do with the subject...?

I don't suspect that Skyward Sword will be good, but I can't agree with a single thing this guy says. He even criticizes Aonuma for making wooden dolls in college and uses this as a reason for why he shouldn't be in the industry.

 

[Fat Dragon]

I liked the fishing pond area, I spent hours trying to catch the Hylian Loach. Zelda always has addictive fishing games.

But that fucking marble game, fuck that.

 

[Genma:TheDestroyer]

OoT had a better, more atmospheric and relaxing fishing game than any of the official ones on the N64. I'd dump about a hour into it every couple days while winding down from school.

 

[kingcomrade]

At some point in the future it will be possible to talk about Twilight Princess without every single post afterwards being about Ocarina of Time.

 

[hoopy]

Interesting read, but wasn't Aonuma the one who was responsible for the direction Majora's Mask took? I agree with a lot of people that it's by far the best of the 3D Zelda games. I dunno, maybe now that he's no longer a scrappy underdog looking to take Zelda in strange new directions, he's mellowed out and is more concerned with just giving people "fun" experiences than ones that are interesting, emotionally affecting and challenging. That, or maybe he's always been one of those guys with a good creative mind, but one that needs to be tempered and moderated by someone a bit more realistic and down to earth.

I think the problem is that he is making Zelda games instead of adventure games or JRPGs (the same could be said about Sakamoto and Metroid). He's not the right man for the job, Zelda shouldn't be about watching cutscenes and solving puzzles. Or at least it seems that way to me since my first Zelda was the original one, not OoT or any other 3D Zelda.

 

[Aldebaran]

I think the problem is that he is making Zelda games instead of adventure games or JRPGs.

I don't know about JRPGs, those generally require a lot of combat.

(the same could be said about Sakamoto and Metroid).

SAKAMOTO, WHY DID YOU DO IT?

He's not the right man for the job, Zelda shouldn't be about watching cutscenes and solving puzzles. Or at least it seems that way to me since my first Zelda was the original one, not OoT or any other 3D Zelda.

My first Zelda game was also the original one, and I distinctly remember having to try to push every block in every possible direction and engage in (I think two?) crossroads which only lead anywhere if you use the right combination. Many of my friends who I have since shown the original game have more trouble finding the dungeons in it than completing the puzzles in any other Zelda game.

Maybe Aonuma does include too many puzzles, but I have not noticed it yet. In fact, the puzzles are just about the only thing keeping the difficulty of Zelda games afloat at this time. Then you have to consider how puzzles help to break up the action with slow moments, avoid too many generic enemies syndrome, and give dungeons their own distinct feel (often one puzzle can extend throughout an entire dungeon).

All I know is that Aonuma was heavily involved with Majora's Mask, and that makes him okay in my books--regardless of what he says in interviews. Though, that could very possibly change with Skyward Sword.