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Immersion: text or graphic ?

pick one

  • Text

    Votes: 1 100.0%
  • Graphic

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    1

Silva

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What kind of game immerse you more on its gameworld ?

Those where the core gameplay is text-based ? (Planescape Torment, King of Dragon Pass, Fallout 2).

Or those where the core gameplay is graphics-based ? (Elder Scrolls, Final Fantasy, etc).
 
In My Safe Space
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When it comes to cRPGs, I feel more immersed when there are lots of descriptions and I can examine objects and get more descriptions.
 

Cosmo

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And here's another thing : you should have mentioned good art direction, as opposed to "good graphics". In some games graphics and text work hand in hand to convey the same meaning. Torment, anyone ?!
 
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Excidium

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Awor Szurkrarz said:
When it comes to cRPGs, I feel more immersed when there are lots of descriptions and I can examine objects and get more descriptions.
Yeh, me too. I always loved how you could get descriptions of basically everything in Fallout, often humorous ones.
 

Surf Solar

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Cosmo said:
And here's another thing : you should have mentioned good art direction, as opposed to "good graphics". In some games graphics and text work hand in hand to convey the same meaning. Torment, anyone ?!

This. Also, graphics can be pretty, as long as there is a layer of abstraction attached to it, nothing uncanny etc. - that's why I don't like 3d games and prefer stylized isometric games where everything looks beautiful but still leaves room for detailed descriptions and the like. When I see 3d games, I mostly only see a bunch of meshes and models with some textures attached, instead of a "gameworld" - it always is uncanny.
 
In My Safe Space
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Excidium said:
Awor Szurkrarz said:
When it comes to cRPGs, I feel more immersed when there are lots of descriptions and I can examine objects and get more descriptions.
Yeh, me too. I always loved how you could get descriptions of basically everything in Fallout, often humorous ones.
One thing that I disliked about Fallout 2 is how most of new objects didn't have a description.

Also, Fallout had very good graphics for its time.
 

I.C. Wiener

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Out of the two, graphics, but as said they rely on good art direction. A game that uses both properly will be more immersive than one that uses either.

This poll omits the use of sound design, which is also very important.
 

TheWesDude

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graphical games are inherently more immersive

the problem is most companies rely on the graphics to do all the immersion.

you have to have both.

if you do stellar text, it can be more immersive than graphics.

if you do stellar graphics and horrible text, then the text would detract from the graphics ruining them.

if you do stellar text and horrible graphics, that can be done without ruining the text.

art direction is more important than graphical quality.

it doesnt matter how good your graphics are if the text/voices completely ruin the immersion that the graphics provide.

thats the problem with bethesda. they rely entirely upon the graphics to provide the immersion, but what immersion the graphics provide is completely ruined by the horrible text.
 

Aldebaran

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While I don't like making blanket statements (and using the word immersion in a serious context these days), text based is superior. For the same reason a good book will always immerse you more than a good movie: you are the one creating the images, while the narration gives you the framework. Unless the narrator suffers from OCD and must explain absolutely every detail in excruciating accuracy, at which point you are simply receiving a very inefficient and tedious image.

That is not to say that one leads to a better overall game, but, as far as drawing you in, text is a safe bet.

Still, there are plenty of other ways to convey ideas and stories aside from graphics and text. The most effective and overlooked one seems to be music these days. I guess developers assume that if you can see pixelated ants crawling around on trees, you should be able to understand the mood of an area--even with a sterile, orchestral score which sounds the same as everywhere else. This may be going against the wisdom of the film, theatre, and old video game industry, but I'm sure developers know better.
 

DraQ

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Silva said:
What kind of game immerse you more on its gameworld ?

Those where the core gameplay is text-based ? (Planescape Torment, King of Dragon Pass, Fallout 2).

Or those where the core gameplay is graphics-based ? (Elder Scrolls, Final Fantasy, etc).
Whatever works in given context. I cannot imagine PS:T without text just as I cannot imagine Morrowind without 3D landscapes and detailed locations. Text can be bland or vibrant and so can graphics.

The important thing is that, although it's good and desirable to use graphics when possible, it's not always possible so one should not ditch text in favour of using graphics exclusively (or written text in favour of VOs). Text is much easier to create in mass quantity, and is also much lighter on memory consumption. Text is also very flexible - you can use it to portray anything - good luck using graphics to portray smells, humidity or your character's knowledge about particular item.

And since you're going to need text anyway, unless you don't want experience you're crafting to reach its full potential, you should give it as much flavour as possible.
 

Zed

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Doesn't really matter to me. I can get just as immersed by a movie as I get immersed by a book. In games, I can get just as immersed by text as visuals, but visuals tend to faster create an environment and atmosphere. Text on the other hand better describes characters.
 

Cosmo

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Surf Solar said:
This. Also, graphics can be pretty, as long as there is a layer of abstraction attached to it, nothing uncanny etc. - that's why I don't like 3d games and prefer stylized isometric games where everything looks beautiful but still leaves room for detailed descriptions and the like. When I see 3d games, I mostly only see a bunch of meshes and models with some textures attached, instead of a "gameworld" - it always is uncanny.

Thing is, we no longer have to put up with shitty Dungeon Siege-like 3D... But now every game must be "BOOM in ur face !!!", instead of being meaningful and handcrafted. Morrowind unfortunately had no descendants.
 

jancobblepot

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Silva said:
What kind of game immerse you more on its gameworld ?

Those where the core gameplay is text-based ? (Planescape Torment, King of Dragon Pass, Fallout 2).

Or those where the core gameplay is graphics-based ? (Elder Scrolls, Final Fantasy, etc).

None. I want a responsive world to feel immersed. But yeah, it's much easier to make that with only text.
 

DraQ

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Aldebaran said:
While I don't like making blanket statements (and using the word immersion in a serious context these days), text based is superior. For the same reason a good book will always immerse you more than a good movie: you are the one creating the images, while the narration gives you the framework. Unless the narrator suffers from OCD and must explain absolutely every detail in excruciating accuracy, at which point you are simply receiving a very inefficient and tedious image.

That is not to say that one leads to a better overall game, but, as far as drawing you in, text is a safe bet.

Still, there are plenty of other ways to convey ideas and stories aside from graphics and text. The most effective and overlooked one seems to be music these days. I guess developers assume that if you can see pixelated ants crawling around on trees, you should be able to understand the mood of an area--even with a sterile, orchestral score which sounds the same as everywhere else. This may be going against the wisdom of the film, theatre, and old video game industry, but I'm sure developers know better.
Immersion aside, text does one thing infinitely worse than graphics when conveying information - since describing irrelevant detail takes a lot of extra space, text handles the relevant ones to the player on a silver platter even if it would be desirable to conceal them among mass of irrelevant ones. 3D scene has no such problems.

If I were to make, say a Fallout-like RPG where one of the clues was scratch marks under a bookcase indicating passage behind it, I'd have to simply make a PE check, and either spoonfeed player the information or not.

In a 3D game scratch marks could be a decal in 3D gameworld. Instead of stat check followed by obviously relevant description if successful, the decal could have a flag deciding whether it should be rendered and this flag could be set depending on PCs PE score. This way the player playing character with low PE wouldn't notice anything, since the scratch marks wouldn't be rendered for him, but the player playing high PE character wouldn't be spoon-fed the relevant information, the game would merely leave it visible, but concealed among the rest of the scene.

I know that some of you wince at the thought of involving player skill, but apart from "Role" part RPG also includes "Game" part and games are meant to be played using skill.
 

Fatty

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Voted text. Fattyland is a very vivid an interesting place. No artist is going to rival the shit my head can conjure for me, which in turn probably wouldn't do it for the next guy. SMT Nocturne I would say did the best job, though.
 

Aldebaran

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DraQ said:
Immersion aside, text does one thing infinitely worse than graphics when conveying information - since describing irrelevant detail takes a lot of extra space, text handles the relevant ones to the player on a silver platter even if it would be desirable to conceal them among mass of irrelevant ones. 3D scene has no such problems.

If I were to make, say a Fallout-like RPG where one of the clues was scratch marks under a bookcase indicating passage behind it, I'd have to simply make a PE check, and either spoonfeed player the information or not.

In a 3D game scratch marks could be a decal in 3D gameworld. Instead of stat check followed by obviously relevant description if successful, the decal could have a flag deciding whether it should be rendered and this flag could be set depending on PCs PE score. This way the player playing character with low PE wouldn't notice anything, since the scratch marks wouldn't be rendered for him, but the player playing high PE character wouldn't be spoon-fed the relevant information, the game would merely leave it visible, but concealed among the rest of the scene.

I know that some of you wince at the thought of involving player skill, but apart from "Role" part RPG also includes "Game" part and games are meant to be played using skill.

I mostly agree with you. As I said, one does not lead to a better game overall.

They each have their own positives and negatives, but due to the nature of the industry, it is hard to compare them as we rarely see either used to their fullest capabilities. But then, Effective music combined with strong visuals (not graphics) helps to build a much better environment than this choice of options--for me.

Regarding player/character skill, I have no problem with relying on the player's skill a number of times in an RPG. This is because I regard choice of tactics as predominantly a player skill (although character skill should open up new tactics). Maybe I am just not hardcore enough to keep tactics in character, but that is never going to change. The problem arises when the majority of an RPG is determined by player skill.
 

Nattvardsvin

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Text.
The visual scenes and atmosphere I can pull up in my mind from that detailed text, that shit blows away any kind of graphics I've yet to see in a game. By far.
SO FUCK COMPUTER GRAPHICS BASICALLY.
 

ironyuri

Guest
What the fuck is the point of this thread?

Text-based? Do you even know what that means?

Obviously you must have mistaken PS:T and Fallout for a MUD or MUSH, or maybe even Zork.

Fucking idiot.

PS:T and Fallout are just as visual as they are textual, and what cannot be visualised completely is interpolated through text.

If you had ever played a MUD or MUSH you'd know the difference between text-based and visually based games, and how the fuck can core 'gameplay' even be text-based as opposed to visually based?

Gameplay revolves around mechanics themselves, and in many of the games you list, the functional aspects of gameplay are hidden, so that the player receives both visual and textual feedback.

When you hit an enemy in Torment, you get visual feedback, you land a blow and see a damage overhead to tell you how much HP damage you did- that does not make the gameplay textual, the text is there to give you feedback on a gameplay mechanic, that is, the calculation of your THAC0 against the opponent's AC and HP score, as well as a few other things (to simplify it slightly). When you kill the enemy, they fall to the floor dead. This is visual. Not fucking textual.

Textual gameplay involves the inputting of textual commands which function in a given context and give only textual feedback in a world fully simulated in text, so that the rooms you traverse, and any information you receive about them, your character, your opponents/allies are textual. This means you, using your imagination, to immerse yourself in the world.

And to answer the question, they function differently, you cannot even equate how one immerses you more than the other. If I read a fantasy novel and the author is of a high enough calibre to elicit suspension of disbelief and the creation of an imagined world in which you follow his narrative, then that is how the best textual game representation can and should also function. Visual media stimulate your brain differently.

As a footnote, I will also add that even textual games can be visual, given the development of ASCII. I used a piece of ASCII art as my character description (a drawing of a dwarf in full armour, with a battle axe)- ie: I offered other players a visual representation of my character which they would only be able to interact with in text.



Also, fuck you.

Edit1.: To even suggest that 'gameplay' can be visual or textual is fucking cretinous. Graphics and Text are not gameplay. Mechanics are gameplay. Graphics and text function as player feedback for implicitly or explicity present gameplay mechanics.

See PS:T example. Dialogue is a mechanic, the text of what you say in dialogue is feedback of how the mechanic works: ie, angry response, nice response, neutral response. If intimidation and persuasion are elements of the dialogue mechanic then these are represented textually (what the game shows your character saying), aurally (what the VO says) and visually, when the game shows your character collar grabbing an opponent. But none of these representations are fucking gameplay.
 

Nattvardsvin

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ironyuri said:
WALL OF TEXT

Also, fuck you.

That bunch of text seemed like a general fuck you to me, but perhaps that was an extra, more actual fuck you at the end?

Either way, fuck you all I say. :smug:
 

SCO

Arcane
In My Safe Space
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Shadorwun: Hong Kong
A image actually detracts from a well crafted text if the image is not abstracted and relevant - think fallout objects.

Why? Because of contradictions, arising from different authors and your own conception of how it looks like vs the text. And sometimes a concept is just not meant to be pictured.

ittlepeople.jpg


seriouslywtf.jpg


ManseedSmall.jpg


cover_silver_hand.jpg


pope.jpg


It's also the number one reason why you should use ebooks without cover support. To not judge a book by it's cover.
 

Palantas

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Apr 3, 2007
Messages
5
When you said "text," I thought text-based games like I played (tried to, anyway) on the Apple when I was wee. Those are kinda before my time, so I can't really comment. Every game I've played has had some degree of graphics.

However, I see by "text" you mean using text for descriptions, like in Fallout or Torment, as opposed to using actual graphics like newer games. In that case, I dunno. Even in Torment, the graphics seem kinda inseparable from the text.

What immerses me in a game the most is emotional investment in the characters. A large part of this is conversation. So maybe I should be picking between text and audio.
 

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