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Skyrim - Bethesda, you should be very, very proud.

commie

The Last Marxist
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Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Divinity: Original Sin 2
6 pages about Skyrim in one troll topic in a day.



Agent Twinfalls: MISSION ACCOMPLISHED.


Love Todd.

:salute:
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
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villain of the story said:
Vault Dweller said:
That and he had a generally poor understanding of what perks do and don't, probably because he wasn't interested.
Yeah, the perks are really fucking complicated.

It is completely possible to get even the simplest things wrong or not get them at all because you just don't care. And people explained why you were wrong in that IT thread. And they are right. That's what matters. Nothing wrong or horrid about it.
Right because... ?

Let's try again.

In any decent RPG numbers representing your to-hit chance, damage, defense, health matter a lot. In Skyrim the key numbers are damage, defense, and, to some degree, health.

It goes without saying that these numbers should be balanced as much as possible. In order to do this, the ranges should be manageable and more or less consistent. As I said in the other thread, increasing damage is a common ability, but usually, it's either temporary or balanced by lowering the to-hit chance or speed, which isn't the case there.

Now, the fact that the damage goes up with skills already throw the balance out of the window. When the damage difference is 20% for different materials, it's appropriate (10 vs 12 points). When the difference is 62 for an elven two-hander or 64 for a glass two-hander, it's a clear sign that the system is falling apart.

Perks, potentially doubling the damage, greatly contribute to this problem. The damage range becomes unmanageable, which is obvious to anyone who's played the game. Throw in crafting and alchemy (potions improving crafting) and you can make weapons dealing insane, game breaking damage.

2469 Armor. / 3199 Damage using (Smithing, Alchemy, Enchanting)

The argument against was that the player was expected to put all the points into extra damage and thus there is no balance problem whatsoever because the system is balanced with the double damage/double armor in mind is silly. First, a choice is a choice. It implies instantly that some players may choose not to increase the damage (beyond the mandatory single point to unlock the perk "tree") but to spread the points around, which would make combat tedious (see a thread nearby about fighting dragons with one-handed swords).

Second, a claim that the game is balanced for 100% more damage two-handed is bullshit. I can kill a frost dragon (once it lands) in 30 seconds with a crafted elven two-hander. Originally, I put a "drain 15 points of health" enchantment on it, but I didn't recharge it since I ran out of juice, simply because there is no point. I can craft an ebony two-hander, but again, what's the point? So that I can kill a dragon in 20 seconds?

And in conclusion... I agree after playing longer that the player is indeed expected to invest heavily into the main skills' perks. This doesn't mean that the system created isn't unbalanced, that it's a good idea, and that every player will max the damage/defense perks. Hence, balance issues. You can't tell the player "whoa, dude! you weren't supposed to do that! it's totally your fault that the game sucks now!" You can't tell that crafting nut who made uber weapons that he did something wrong. He didn't abuse the system. He did what the system invited him to do, which brings us to the last point: increasing damage, duration, effect, defense, etc is a very lazy and dumb design, which reminds me of Dragon Age 2.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
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MetalCraze said:
So if a generic story about a Chosen One and NPCs being ready to die for you because you delivered a simple letter across the road is 'design' - then what is 'writing'?
If the design is "deliver a letter (or punch him in the face - sad, but true) and he's your best friend now, eager to drop everything and follow you everywhere", then the writer can only do so much there.

The strength of writing is shown in the world building, in conversation with many (most? 2/3? 3/4?) NPCs who flesh out the world of Skyrim and its culture. Compare this world to the northern "viking" lands of Gothic 3 and you'll see the difference instantly.

As Gareth said: "It's a weird contrast, the background lore has maturity, ambiguity and potential. And some of the characters show flashes of decent potential. But the plots themselves let it all down."

I'm genuinely interested in knowing the difference between "have you seen my father, a middle aged guy"-writing and "oh you've just went and delivered my love letter, I will now owe you my life!"-design
The latter is the design, pure and simple. Literally, simple. The idea was to give you some followers without much hassle and reward the player for doing these idiotic tasks (do things for people and they will let you take things from their homes and maybe even follow you - :facepalm:). The writing has to fit this design and there isn't much you can do there.

The "looking for my father" line is dumb because it doesn't have any design restraints and because the "he's a middle aged guy" description doesn't describe anything.
 

Kz3r0

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Messages
27,012
Crooked Bee said:
Black Cat said:
- the most god-fucking-awful interface in the history of video games

Second most god-fucking-awful interface in the history of video games, actually. Gothic's still the king.

Both aren't that bad after having to deal with Space 1889's and Whale Voyage's.
Must be a German thingie. :M
 

fizzelopeguss

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Equality Street.
Vault Dweller said:
As Gareth said: "It's a weird contrast, the background lore has maturity, ambiguity and potential. And some of the characters show flashes of decent potential. But the plots themselves let it all down."

it's hard reading the books about the war in cryodil...because all i see are the deformed facegen faces and disneyland town design from oblivion.
 

Gregz

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halflingbarbarian said:
So I think the bandaid in enjoying their imbalanced systems is to play it 'naturally', aka LARP (as many would call it), so that the brokenness doesn't set in as fast.

Yep, the better you can police your urge to press the "I win button" the more enjoyable the game.

You can beat the game with the console in 5 minutes if you so desire, all the codes are out there. On there other hand, I've given myself permission to use a few cheats here and there because I felt certain things were an unnecessary pain. (carry restrictions mostly, I needs my brooms).

i-PPTPkRk-XL.jpg
 

Mortmal

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Messages
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Why is not considered as rpg ? And compared to what ? The character creation is there even if you dont like the system, you dont have strengh anymore for exemple but you do specialize in martial lines equivalent to what you want to achieve with a str stat, you are able to wear heavy armor more easily if you spec for it, no int but you are doing considerably better if you spec into the magic school lines.
Its really equivalent to other system, it doesnt even neglect speech skills, ability to get discount then ability to invest in shop etc, no its really well done.Gothic better than that ? let me laugh, gothic with its 3 cookie cutter classes...mage , paladin, bandit
You want D&D system clone right , you are too close minded to accept antyhing else.

The combat gets boring ? Guess what its the same in every rpgs, all of them are way too simple. The famed early ultima ? Stay back dont move and throw axes, rince and repeat.Fallout 1&2 ? take a gun ,any gun, shoot in the head,or better the eyes, rince and repeat. Arcanum ? equip the best loot and clickfest, how tactical it was omg.

Skyrim doesnt have the worse interface of all history,gothic 1 is worsen space 1889 is worse, early gold box games are worse, remember how fun it was to rememorize each spells after each random encounters?No of course not you ,just pretend having played them and just read a wiki summary. Run dos box and champions of krynn, do a few fights and see how you stomach it .
What am i saying ! Theres barely a few guys here able to run dos box and play a 90's game.The rest is just able to lament and scream decline , or the fucking " good for what it is " without any experience of the previous rpgs.

I do remember those games, and not feel ashamed to place it next to ultima underworld, daggerfall and morrowind.
 

Gerrard

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Messages
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fizzelopeguss said:
"Powergaming aspie roleplayers" that bizarrely exist in the codex are utterly doomed in this game. They can't but help themselves to abusing blacksmithing to it's full potential. buying iron+strips and crafting daggers to 100 blacksmithy and going straight for dragonplate.(+ 10 lvl's for the perks)

But that's a typical fuck up design wise on bethesda's part.

You'd think they'd love it because you can make utter god tier exploding sun weapnry with the tradeskills...apparently not.
It's too bad there's no "Fortify Enchant" items in the game, that would provide some hilarity.
And the best potion I found only gave +15%, which isn't a whole lot (compered to a +50% smithing one).
 

Rhalle

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Obviously they should have left Enchanting in the magic tree, instead of making it a skill, like Alchemy.

And Blacksmithing-- did they just get lazy and decide not to scale the XP for crafting items? I mean, it has a shadow of WoW blacksmithing on it, except that they didn't bother to scale it so that you couldn't make a single cheap item all the way to 100.

Was scaling the XP gain for different teirs of created items too hard for them, or did they just not care?

fizzelopeguss wrote:
"Powergaming aspie roleplayers" that bizarrely exist in the codex are utterly doomed in this game. They can't but help themselves to abusing blacksmithing to it's full potential. buying iron+strips and crafting daggers to 100 blacksmithy and going straight for dragonplate.(+ 10 lvl's for the perks)

But that's a typical fuck up design wise on bethesda's part.

You'd think they'd love it because you can make utter god tier exploding sun weapnry with the tradeskills...apparently not.

It's too bad there's no "Fortify Enchant" items in the game, that would provide some hilarity.
And the best potion I found only gave +15%, which isn't a whole lot (compered to a +50% smithing one).

I've been sitting on 80 smithing and 80 enchanting, purposely gimping myself, but I don't think I can resist any longer. The best blacksmitighin potion I've seen is 40%; but there's definitely a higher than 15% enchanting one; I want to say that the Philter of Enchanting is either 20 or 30%-- I've used it.
 

Majestic47

Learned
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Nov 9, 2011
Messages
432
Next time I'm starting a new char I won't even bother crafting a single piece . Maybe just potions.

Crafting skills should have a seperate level up mechanic. One that improves their own perks as you use them.

Gaining a level up from crafting daggers and putting the perk point to blocking feels kinda wrong.
 

Twinfalls

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Folks,

It's not hard. Just do what I did from the outset - ignore smithing and crafting. It struck me as a bit of fluff to attract the mainstream, and LARPY silliness - like that other great series which had LARPY silliness - Ultima. I didn't spend much time baking bread in that one either. I used a bench in Skyrim and wondered 'Why would my Conan-esque swordsman instantly be able to craft jewellery worth thousands in gold?'. So I just stopped using them. Not hard.

Ignore it. If you have the strength to play any 3D shooter and not pop up the console and type in 'noclip', I'm sure you can handle this.

So VD dislikes the dungeons. That's ok - his review of Oblivion praised the dungeons. That's okay too, they were bigger and spookier, but heavily repetitive. I'm really seeing this game as a sequel to Morrowind. In that respect the dungeons are so far, so good. They're more varied and look great. (except for item overload - but again - you don't have to pick up every goddam thing lying around). Easy exit - so fucking what - when you consider the whole package, the number of dungeons, the size of the world, the backstory etc etc.

Play the game on Expert, or Master even. It's tough. It's huge. The lore is great. Quests so far are pretty good. MQ may not be great (I'm not far in at all). But it's TES. It's a real sequel to Morrowind, and a vast improvement in game mechanics on Morrowind.

And hey, fuck you all if you think graphics don't count. Look me in the eye and tell me Stanley Kubrick's films are no good because we can't count how incredibly gorgeous they are. Especially Barry Lyndon. ESPECIALLY BARRY LYNDON
 
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I haven't once bothered with crafting, smithing, enchanting or alchemy.

Also, I have 83 in Speech with all the non-trade related perks and obviously, you can still fail some intimidation or persuasion attempt even at Speech 83 with all those perks. This is a massive incline from Bethesda. And one that is very mature from design standpoint.
 

Hoaxmetal

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Jul 19, 2009
Messages
9,157
I used blacksmithing only for one quest and the balance is just fine - I one shot sometimes, I get one shotted sometimes.
Baaaaw, Skyrim made me exploit it's crafting system, it's sucks noooow
Typical Codex :salute:
 

Gord

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Feb 16, 2011
Messages
7,049
So is a system (in a single player game) broken because it can be exploited?
If a player has even minimum self restraint he might play the game in a non-exploitive way - it's not even that difficult, believe me.
You don't even have to ignore the crafting skills, it's enough to use them the way they were obviously intended to be used - as supportive skills to complement your character, in a way that you level them a few points every level instead of mass-producing iron daggers until you hit lvl 100 in the skill.
Seriously, if you cannot restrain yourself from doing so, maybe you should get that OCD checked.

But of course it's obviously Bethesdas fault that they didn't balance their game around a bunch of Aspies...

Anyway, I'm sure mods will fix it for you eventually.
 

kris

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Vault Dweller said:
Enjoy your hiking, gentlemen."

I will. Nepal in april, you coming? ;)

I mostly agree with your views on the game, I got more hours of entertainment that I expected from it.

But I'd add that the game reacts poorly to your character. Whether you are level 1 and can't hold a weapon or level 300 and the thane in every region makes little difference to all. So its bad in both ends.
 

flushfire

Augur
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Jun 10, 2006
Messages
771
Gord said:
So is a system (in a single player game) broken because it can be exploited?
The problem is how obvious and easy it is to do. IMO they fall into two categories: one where exploiting the system is obviously not intended and/or carefully designed so that while exploits exist you'd have to do outlandish/gamey things and where it feels like you are gimping yourself if you're not doing it because it was obviously how the system is designed. Take for example Acrobatics and Restoration in Oblivion. If you used them 'naturally', as in jump only when needed or heal only when needed then you're gimping yourself. Not even gimping yourself, you wont level the skills if you did.

If crafting was "obviously" intended to be used in a way that they should be leveled gradually, then it shouldn't even be possible to level them to 100 using mundane recipes. If it's as easy to fix as putting a cap until a recipe becomes worthless, the intention is definitely not gradual leveling.
 

Twinfalls

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Gord said:
But of course it's obviously Bethesdas fault that they didn't balance their game around a bunch of Aspies...

:lol:

The Codex is a broad church - VD's always had respect here because he's got clear views on what he likes and he backs them up. The TES world itself isn't his thing, whereas Daggerfall's tremendous variables and multiple action paths they produced, were.

But he doesn't engage in the kind of moronic Skyway knee-jerk ideology that is pitiful when on display here. There's plenty of that just in this thread. You've got someone back there who proclaims themselves an RPG purist then complains that the voice acting in Skyrim isn't perfect for every last NPC (literally). They remind me of the ideological Left. 'I want a socialist utopia and I also want free stuff and I don't want to work'.

I like TES. I think Peterson and Kirkbride created something truly special with their world. It's authentic, it's real. It went missing in Oblivion, as did any sort of good game experience really. Skyrim has brought that back.

Is Skyrim not an RPG because of the loss of attributes? I don't like their loss. But take a look at Gothic. It had a grand total of one more attribute. And Skyrim has at least 10 more skills. And races. Not to mention genders (I personally know VD values gender choice...)

Hey - consider Speechcraft your intelligence attribute if that works. Whatever. Give me the loss of attributes but combat that's a bazillion times better than Morrowind anyday.

And given Bethesda have made a more difficult follow-up to Oblivion and brought back the factional backstory and politics - and quite obviously reached out to their old fans in a number of ways (the divines have separate temples again, and unlike Daggerfall they're not copypasta) - they might even bring back attributes if enough people ask for them. Probably not, but you never know.
 

Roguey

Codex Staff
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Soon Twinfalls will be having sex dreams about Todd Howard and her transformation into Princess Stomper will be complete. Long live the New Flesh. :mca:
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
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flushfire said:
If crafting was "obviously" intended to be used in a way that they should be leveled gradually, then it shouldn't even be possible to level them to 100 using mundane recipes. If it's as easy to fix as putting a cap until a recipe becomes worthless, the intention is definitely not gradual leveling.
Exactly.

For example, they fixed Destruction magic exploit by requiring a target. Same here. Either slow down the skill progress or make ore less available. If you couldn't buy the ore and ingots in stores and had to rely only on what you prospect (and needed iron to make steel), you wouldn't be able to abuse the system. Simple as that.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
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Twinfalls said:
Folks,

It's not hard. Just do what I did from the outset - ignore smithing and crafting. It struck me as a bit of fluff to attract the mainstream...
Fluff? Crafting and enchanting? There is nothing LARPy about crafting your own gear (Arcanum? Gothic? ToEE?), but much like any other feature it has to done right - balanced, thought through, fit the sandbox gameplay model.

Suggesting not to use two fairly large gameplay elements is a sure sign that the game is broken. What's next? A guide how to enjoy Skyrim? Don't use these skills, don't use these gear, don't do these quests, don't use shouts?

... and LARPY silliness - like that other great series which had LARPY silliness - Ultima. I didn't spend much time baking bread in that one either.
Not the same. Baking bread is like wood chopping in Skyrim, i.e. fluff.

Ignore it. If you have the strength to play any 3D shooter and not pop up the console and type in 'noclip', I'm sure you can handle this.
Seriously?

So VD dislikes the dungeons. That's ok - his review of Oblivion praised the dungeons. That's okay too, they were bigger and spookier, but heavily repetitive.
First, I quoted from my initial impressions. Second, I didn't say that I disliked the dungeons. I said that they "lack Daggerfall's complexity, interactivity, and non-linearity." Now that I've played a bit more, I take back the comment about interactivity (there are plenty of switches and such). The rest stays.

To be fair, "the rest" applies to Oblivion dungeons as well, but for some reasons I liked them more. Skyrim dungeons feel very small, very linear, and very repetitive. Some elements are cool, but they are reused too often, in my opinion.

They are more atmospheric, more detailed; some are stunningly gorgeous, but they suffer from the same syndrome as the game overall: the world is well developed and mature, the quests are mostly silly. Same with dungeons. They feel like superb decorations disconnected from gameplay.

Maybe it's the extra details that create the disconnect and make the comparison with less detailed, more generic Oblivion dungeons unfavorable, because in the end the have the same dumb purpose - they house monsters to kill and loot to plunder.

The monsters don't use the environment and, well, the very dungeons themselves against you. They don't take advantage of the well defended environments. They see you, they run at you. The dungeons don't have any logic. The switches and hidden plates are too obvious, the solutions to puzzles are right in front of you (Why would the builders leave them there? Why the "puzzles" are so primitive that anyone can find the right combination even without having the answers in front of you? Why the chest in the final area, in front of a coffin of an uber undead guardian is filled with shit? What would someone place a chest in the middle of a well guarded hall only to put there 25 gold, a potion, and an iron helmet? Etc).

Play the game on Expert, or Master even. It's tough.
I am. It's not (with a two-hander or sneaking attacks, which are vastly overpowered)

...and a vast improvement in game mechanics on Morrowind.
For instance?
 
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Gerrard said:
That's bordering larping.

You're either a powergamer or a LARPer

no in-between

Vault Dweller said:
flushfire said:
If crafting was "obviously" intended to be used in a way that they should be leveled gradually, then it shouldn't even be possible to level them to 100 using mundane recipes. If it's as easy to fix as putting a cap until a recipe becomes worthless, the intention is definitely not gradual leveling.
Exactly.

For example, they fixed Destruction magic exploit by requiring a target. Same here. Either slow down the skill progress or make ore less available. If you couldn't buy the ore and ingots in stores and had to rely only on what you prospect (and needed iron to make steel), you wouldn't be able to abuse the system. Simple as that.

The game obviously intends you to gradually level your skills, but Bethesda has the sloppiest playtesting ever and most likely no one noticed you could sit on your ass and mass produce iron daggers until you are motherfucking Hephaestus
 
Joined
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@VD

I won't comment on your opinions or the parts that involve a case of lazy AI design, probably copied from Oblivion, FO3 and FNV (non-usage of environment by AI). But I'll point out some things you are wrong about.

1) Puzzles with answer right in front of you on walls: It's not just you, I've seen another post mention it. If you have went to more than 1 dungeon with the murals on the walls before the door with the keyhole for a claw, you will notice that the order of the murals are the same, it's just a design of that cell. If you managed to solve the puzzle using the murals on the wall, it means that the solution for that particular puzzle happened to coincide with the order of the default murals. The real and only method of finding the answer for the keyhole animal symbol puzzle consistently, for all those types of doors, is to rotate the claw key in your inventory and look at its 'palm'. The repetition of the same model for a puzzle etc. is another discussion.

2) Two-handers overpowered. What level are you in the game on Expert/Master difficulty, and what kind of mobs are you overpowered against? Highest level-scaled casters on Master difficulty can bring down a two-hander easily (assuming the lack of other outstanding abilities, which should be the case since you are talking about two-handed damage in particular). And your math on two-handed damage disproportionately outstripping one-handed MAY be right (really depends on weapon type and critical perks) but even then, my non-magic warrior with a 100 skill smithed daedric sword (90 displayed damage) hardly takes 1/6 or 1/7 of a highest leveled caster's hp in a non-crit and about 1/4 in a crit. Looking at the two-handed perk tree, it has perks with the same modifiers as the one-handed tree.

Assuming we use the highest difference between a 1handed and 2handed weapon aka maces and warhammers, the difference in base damage is 12. Smithing is irrelevant here, since it's a flat increase regardless of hands and won't change the base damage difference. Let's multiply 12 by the five/five weapon perk bonus of x2. The difference is now 24. Let's add a above mediocre weapon damage enchant total (ring + necklace) of 50%. It's 36.

Daedric mace: 15 (base) x 2 = 30, 30 x 50% = 45.
Daedric warhammer: 27 (base) x 2 = 54, 54 x 50% = 81.

Whoa. Looks almost double right? Yes, but the significance of the difference diminishes very quickly as enemy hp bloats, and when smithing is involved. But I said smithing should not be involved, right? However, let's look at how much of an enemy caster's hp bar I am reducing, as above, with 100 smithing for a 90 displayed damage (inclusive of perks and enchants) daedric sword. If I was using a two-hander with similar enhancements, I still won't be 1-shotting enemies, and at best double critical a caster for a quick death (which sounds pretty reasonable to me, sacrificing a shield and depending on 2 criticals in a row to do that kind of damage). Therefore, again, I am asking what your level is, and what difficulty you play on, for you to feel that two-handers are OP. Because my suggestion is that if you really feel it is OP, but want to play a 2-hand wielder without that feeling of cheating, get on Master, because that OPness fades away real quick as HP bloat piles on.

Edit: Forgot to add in power-attack, but the difference is still within the threshold of 2-handers not being OP on Master at higher levels. I just did a 'getav health' on a leveled ascendant conjurer when the PC is level 41 - 500hp. But it's hardly anything to go by to say it's not OP on higher levels AND on Master, but at lower difficulties everything is OP anyways.
 

Vault Dweller

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Clockwork Knight said:
The game obviously intends you to gradually level your skills, but Bethesda has the sloppiest playtesting ever and most likely no one noticed you could sit on your ass and mass produce iron daggers until you are motherfucking Hephaestus
You don't need playtesting to figure it out, do you?

You set the level up speed, which is X*level_modifier items to gain a new level and then ask yourself how easy it is to craft these items. If the answer is "so fucking easy that you can gain 50 skill levels in 5 minutes", you go back and change the formula. And then you test it.
 

Gord

Arcane
Joined
Feb 16, 2011
Messages
7,049
Ok, Bethesda has implemented it in a sloppy way by making it too easy to exploit.
But, what I don't understand is why you guys make such a big fuss over this. Feel it breaks your game? Don't do it, game won't break.

It reminds me of my PnP sessions in a way, specifically how people approach house rules. Some people don't like a certain aspect of a setting/rulebook, so they invent a house rule and are happy with it. Then there are others who need everything to be official. House rules are a big no-go and they lose fun over one detail they don't like.
 

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