Skyrim - Bethesda, you should be very, very proud.

[Jasede]

It just feels so odd.
After constantly being conditioned to dislike Bethesda games - and for good reason, up to a point, with Oblivion - I can't help but see all the good bits in this. Yes, there are many problems. This game is massive, any game would have many problems. Look at our old favorites: Daggerfall? Buggy, so buggy! Arcanum? The combat really needed work, and for better or worse, the game has no balance at all. And it was quite buggy, too.

Even the things I thought I should end up hating I don't even mind. Sure, the dungeons aren't the big, impressive Daggerfall affairs- but they are their own thing. They're beautifully hand-crafted gems of fair enough length. Thought I would hate the shortcuts back to the entrance- turns out, in this day and age, I feel like I don't have the time to backtrack all the way to the entrance, and welcome them.

Yes, the combat is real-time. Well, so what? It's very satisfying, a huge upgrade to Morrowind. It feels visceral, there is a real sense of feedback. The interface is bad? Well... I honestly can't tell. I liked Gothic 1's interface and likewise have no problem at all with this one; I really don't see what's that wrong with it.



But the things I really loved, truly cherished about Morrowind, are all here: there's plenty of lore, the same old (and new) books we have all come to enjoy, the world is beautiful and really worth exploring, if only to see the sights, there is always something to do thanks to the almost Daggerfall-style random quests and the game, at least for me, runs stable right out of the box.

There are a couple of flaws, and they are pretty big, but nothing that'd make this game flat-out bad. Yes, the writing isn't always top-notch, even though there are parts of it that really shine. Yes, the voice-acting isn't all that, but it's an improvement over Oblivion and it's good in parts - and since when did we really care about Voice Acting anyway? Most of is just speed-read the dialogue anyway and click ahead!

There isn't as much to do for the guilds, and that is a real shame and honestly my least favorite part of the game, but other than that, I find I can sink a lot of time into this before I get bored. And let's say I do get bored after 60, 80 hours- tell me, what other games can provide that kind of value in this day and age? Not many!

A lot of the games we loved or love have broken mechanics in part, or overpowered things.
In Fallout 1 you can get the best weapon and armor maybe 15 minutes in, and faster in 2. In Arcanum, many skills are brokenly powerful compared to others. In Torment, to really enjoy most of the game, you are almost pigeon-holed into being Magic User with high WIS/INT/CHA. In ToEE you could easily trivialize the game by picking optimal character builds, and that is true for most older RPGs that I grew up with, except for Wizardry 7 because that game hates you and everything you stand for. And yet you can "break" that too, if you want, by making everyone every class at one point. This is not that different from the crafting being an "exploit".

I know it's not perfect, but so many games we love have things like that. I don't want to sound like a moron, but honestly, this game really makes me curious to see some more mysterious, cool area of TES lore in action with its fancy graphics and vast, sprawling map. Can you imagine how cool it'd be to go to Blackmarsh or Elsweyr? I can, and await them with cautious optimism.

 

[King Crispy]

The Codex has entered a new, Golden Age!

 

[Saxon1974]

It just feels so odd.
After constantly being conditioned to dislike Bethesda games - and for good reason, up to a point, with Oblivion - I can't help but see all the good bits in this. Yes, there are many problems. This game is massive, any game would have many problems. Look at our old favorites: Daggerfall? Buggy, so buggy! Arcanum? The combat really needed work, and for better or worse, the game has no balance at all. And it was quite buggy, too.

Even the things I thought I should end up hating I don't even mind. Sure, the dungeons aren't the big, impressive Daggerfall affairs- but they are their own thing. They're beautifully hand-crafted gems of fair enough length. Thought I would hate the shortcuts back to the entrance- turns out, in this day and age, I feel like I don't have the time to backtrack all the way to the entrance, and welcome them.

Yes, the combat is real-time. Well, so what? It's very satisfying, a huge upgrade to Morrowind. It feels visceral, there is a real sense of feedback. The interface is bad? Well... I honestly can't tell. I liked Gothic 1's interface and likewise have no problem at all with this one; I really don't see what's that wrong with it.



But the things I really loved, truly cherished about Morrowind, are all here: there's plenty of lore, the same old (and new) books we have all come to enjoy, the world is beautiful and really worth exploring, if only to see the sights, there is always something to do thanks to the almost Daggerfall-style random quests and the game, at least for me, runs stable right out of the box.

There are a couple of flaws, and they are pretty big, but nothing that'd make this game flat-out bad. Yes, the writing isn't always top-notch, even though there are parts of it that really shine. Yes, the voice-acting isn't all that, but it's an improvement over Oblivion and it's good in parts - and since when did we really care about Voice Acting anyway? Most of is just speed-read the dialogue anyway and click ahead!

There isn't as much to do for the guilds, and that is a real shame and honestly my least favorite part of the game, but other than that, I find I can sink a lot of time into this before I get bored. And let's say I do get bored after 60, 80 hours- tell me, what other games can provide that kind of value in this day and age? Not many!

A lot of the games we loved or love have broken mechanics in part, or overpowered things.
In Fallout 1 you can get the best weapon and armor maybe 15 minutes in, and faster in 2. In Arcanum, many skills are brokenly powerful compared to others. In Torment, to really enjoy most of the game, you are almost pigeon-holed into being Magic User with high WIS/INT/CHA. In ToEE you could easily trivialize the game by picking optimal character builds, and that is true for most older RPGs that I grew up with, except for Wizardry 7 because that game hates you and everything you stand for. And yet you can "break" that too, if you want, by making everyone every class at one point. This is not that different from the crafting being an "exploit".

I know it's not perfect, but so many games we love have things like that. I don't want to sound like a moron, but honestly, this game really makes me curious to see some more mysterious, cool area of TES lore in action with its fancy graphics and vast, sprawling map. Can you imagine how cool it'd be to go to Blackmarsh or Elsweyr? I can, and await them with cautious optimism.

Great post Jasede, I feel many of the same things as you. This games just makes me want to keep exploring the world and not get any sleep

 

[Twinfalls]

Jasede's put it better than I could.

 

[Teepo]

I just take issue with VD telling somebody to employ a modicum of reservation when crafting.

Also in TOEE you can easily get F'd in the A even with optimal character builds (18 str 18 dex fighter, 18 charisma 18 dex sorcerer etc.) just through coincidence. If you have a series of crappy attack rolls and you're up against 4 trolls or 16 giants, you're just going to have to reload.

I think the crafting system indicates that the whole game is like that. There is no sense of balance. If you want a great sword of swiftness and destruction, you're going to have to sacrifice some of your hard earned exp. And that's not even a perfectly balanced. The value of exp is nothing compared to a sword of destruction which you would never find in the world. More accurately that is a necessary price for crafting, an actual counter weight to a very serious perk of creating your own weapons.

Exp for enchanted weapons is hands down a good deal. But at least you can only enchant a weapon to +10 so there is still some hard choice to be made.

A lot of the games we loved or love have broken mechanics in part, or overpowered things.
In Fallout 1 you can get the best weapon and armor maybe 15 minutes in, and faster in 2. In Arcanum, many skills are brokenly powerful compared to others. In Torment, to really enjoy most of the game, you are almost pigeon-holed into being Magic User with high WIS/INT/CHA. In ToEE you could easily trivialize the game by picking optimal character builds, and that is true for most older RPGs that I grew up with, except for Wizardry 7 because that game hates you and everything you stand for. And yet you can "break" that too, if you want, by making everyone every class at one point. This is not that different from the crafting being an "exploit".

.

There is one major difference between the examples you gave and Skyrim. Nevermind that Fallout 1 is an ancient RPG. There are at least attempts at balance in ToEE and Arcanum.

I would like to know: what attempts at balancing the craft system are there? Is there any difficult choice to be made, or is the obvious answer "craft and then become overpowered."

Basically, the whole game is like this. You discover crafting, you don't know what it is.... You experiment it to try to figure out what is crafting exactly... and before you know it, you are accidentally exploiting it. You follow the logic of the game itself like any other player and you always end up in a place where you are so overpowered it's not fun anymore.

Why doesn't Bethesdea just create an end game area? You know... An area where creatures have "See Invisible." An area where not all classes can survive. Perhaps an area where creatures have certain immunities and weaknesses.

In principle the design philosophy in Skyrim is terrible. As soon as you start doing things just to pleasure other people you're finished, imo.

 

[hoopy]

Stand out at the top of Dragonsreach in Whiterun. Look out at the gorgeous town below you, the vast and beautiful world all around. There's exploration, treasure, danger, ancient secrets, gods, men and women, their struggles, battles, honour, love. TES has been kept alive in 2011.

Would be even better if these men and women could be killed, but nope that would ruin Bethesda's careful scripting. The player's job is to just stand there and watch the scripted scenes that have been prepared for him.

Skyrim's in many respects a better game than Dragon Age 1.

DA is shit, so it's not much of an accomplishment.

Yes, the combat is real-time. Well, so what? It's very satisfying, a huge upgrade to Morrowind. It feels visceral, there is a real sense of feedback. The interface is bad? Well... I honestly can't tell. I liked Gothic 1's interface and likewise have no problem at all with this one; I really don't see what's that wrong with it.

Tapping a button until the other guy dies is not very "visceral."

A while ago somebody posted an image showing why the interface is terrible. The gist of it was that there are colossal amounts of wasted space, and as a result you have to scroll constantly because the menus don't make use of that space. It's also not easy to browse your inventory because of a lack of icons, and equipped items not going to the top automatically. Checking out status effects, skills and other information is also needlessly difficult.

The UI also looks awful and doesn't belong in a fantasy game.

 

[Nael]

 

[Mozgoëbstvo]

There's exploration, treasure, danger, ancient secrets, gods, men and women, their struggles, battles, honour, love

You realize this sounds like a blurb on a game box?

 

[MasterSmithFandango]

Risen somehow managed not to have this problem. Having a pretty stable difficulty level does NOT entail level scaling.

The thing is, if the game world is well crafted, that should never be a problem.

 

[Gord]

Would be even better if these men and women could be killed, but nope that would ruin Bethesda's careful scripting. The player's job is to just stand there and watch the scripted scenes that have been prepared for him.

Oh, you mean like in almost every other fucking game out there?

 

[bonescraper]

I haven't found any other skills/gear to be game-breaking.

O rly? Then don't even think about playing a thief.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKSjZ4s0klM

This is what you get when your stealth skill reaches ~70.

 

[Gord]

I haven't found any other skills/gear to be game-breaking.

O rly? Then don't even think about playing a thief.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKSjZ4s0klM

This is what you get when your stealth skill reaches ~70.

No.

This is what you get when your sneak is 100 with every fucking perk, you use the right equipment and spam invisibility spells on top of that.

 

[bonescraper]

No.

Yes.

This is what you get when your sneak is 100 with every fucking perk, you use the right equipment and spam invisibility spells on top of that.

My character is currently lvl 22 with stealth at 70. I'm not even using any magic ('cause mages are teh gay) and i'm backstabbing, frontstabbing and sidestabbing everything with no actual effort. I'm using my simple hand crafted elven daggers. I don't have those ridiculous gloves which double your sneak damage either (30xDMG in the vid above lol!).

Y u lie?

 

[Gord]

Y u lie?

Watch the video.

But yes, sneak is very wonky.

 

[.Sigurd]

Just one more comment on why I think this game deserves high praise, despite all the flaws (and flaws have always been in Bethesda games, right from the start):

It's the context.

Stand out at the top of Dragonsreach in Whiterun. Look out at the gorgeous town below you, the vast and beautiful world all around. There's exploration, treasure, danger, ancient secrets, gods, men and women, their struggles, battles, honour, love. TES has been kept alive in 2011.

Who else managed this with a Golden Age game-world? (I don't like the word 'franchise' in gaming). Might and Magic? Wizardry? Ultima?

It's a fucking hard business climate in games out there, and it's no surprise there's easy stuff in Skyrim given there's real people's money invested in this thing. Yet Todd Howard managed to do what Garriott could not. Who else did it? Skyrim's in many respects a better game than Dragon Age 1. And what of that series, where's it gone? Where's Bioware gone since Baldur's gate?

I agree with most of your opinions, especially the part about Skyrim being a major incline comming from Bethesda, but now you're starting to sound like a PR monkey. :/

 

[Teepo]

No.

Yes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZFTOckWjB2o

 

[Redshirt #42]

They can't make a great RPG.

They have.

They never made an RPG to begin with.

 

[Gerrard]

Damn fucking right they didn't. Someone tell me why this shit is still in GRPG.

 

[Gord]

Because there is no aRPG subforum.

 

[Vault Dweller]

I just take issue with VD telling somebody to employ a modicum of reservation when crafting...

Never did, so take issue with someone else.

 

[Vault Dweller]

After constantly being conditioned to dislike Bethesda games - and for good reason, up to a point, with Oblivion - I can't help but see all the good bits in this. Yes, there are many problems. This game is massive, any game would have many problems. Look at our old favorites: Daggerfall? Buggy, so buggy! Arcanum? The combat really needed work, and for better or worse, the game has no balance at all. And it was quite buggy, too.

Yes. The game was buggy, the combat was shit, the character system was horribly unbalanced, yet the role-playing aspect was so strong that it easily carried the game to the top 3 list on the Codex.

Now, which Skyrim aspects are the strongest? I'd say the visual design, followed by the worldcraft. Not hard to see why most people here aren't very excited. It's a pretty game set in a not original but well put together world. That's about it.

Sure, there is a shitload of places to explore, but what would you find there? Level-scaled loot? When you see another crypt, another tower, another cave, do you wonder what you will find there? What mystery you will uncover? If you say yes, you'd be lying.

Like I said before, there are two main reasons to explore in a sandbox game: develop your character and find cool shit. Bethesda fucked up both. Look at Diablo 2. The game's all about killing shit. It keeps you going because the character system is good and because the item system is superb. Replace the item system with that bland shit that Skyrim offers you and Diablo 2 would lose 90% of the appeal.

I know it's not perfect, but so many games we love have things like that. I don't want to sound like a moron, but honestly, this game really makes me curious to see some more mysterious, cool area of TES lore in action with its fancy graphics and vast, sprawling map. Can you imagine how cool it'd be to go to Blackmarsh or Elsweyr? I can, and await them with cautious optimism.

It will be a beautiful sight-seeing game.

Bethesda is like ID. ID used to make cool engines and let someone else build cool games on them. Bethesda make pretty games. I wish they'd let Obsidian to make a cool game set in Skyrim. It would be a shame if this world, crafted with such love and attention to details, will go to waste.

 

[Twinfalls]

I haven't found any other skills/gear to be game-breaking.

O rly? Then don't even think about playing a thief.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKSjZ4s0klM

This is what you get when your stealth skill reaches ~70.

Dear God that is really fucking terrible. They really did that?

Ok, I spoke too soon. I admit I assumed they wouldn't be pulling absolutely dumb shit like that across the classes, given the hiding I was getting at lower levels with a basic warrior class.

So it seems it's not a great game after all... It can be great for a while if you play a basic sword wielder with a few spells, or so it seems. I'll play some more and see how it goes.

I still stand by the point I was making about this board and a certain ideology when it comes to Bethesda, to wit:

Would be even better if these men and women could be killed

They never made an RPG to begin with.

Damn fucking right they didn't. Someone tell me why this shit is still in GRPG.

 

[Teepo]

Yeah it seems on closer look you were saying the opposite. I guess I remembered something you said wrong.

I thought someone said something about not going all out on the crafting but all I found was Twinfalls telling people to ignore it all together. Which is even more crazy.

Suggesting not to use two fairly large gameplay elements is a sure sign that the game is broken. What's next? A guide how to enjoy Skyrim? Don't use these skills, don't use these gear, don't do these quests, don't use shouts? .

 

[Roguey]

But the things I really loved, truly cherished about Morrowind, are all here: there's plenty of lore, the same old (and new) books we have all come to enjoy, the world is beautiful and really worth exploring, if only to see the sights, there is always something to do thanks to the almost Daggerfall-style random quests and the game, at least for me, runs stable right out of the box.

In other words, an entertaining diversion for lore and explorationfans but no one else. L'essence de simulation de randonnée. There's nothing or very little here for people who don't care about or need more than just exploration and lore. Much like how some people will tolerate the shittiest games because they enjoy the writing or quest design etc.

 

[hoopy]

Would be even better if these men and women could be killed, but nope that would ruin Bethesda's careful scripting. The player's job is to just stand there and watch the scripted scenes that have been prepared for him.

Oh, you mean like in almost every other fucking game out there?

Skyrim is supposed to be an open-ended RPG, not a rail shooter.