Skyrim - Bethesda, you should be very, very proud.

[Vault Dweller]

Skill bonuses as perks.

Many DnD feats do it (and do it better).

 

[flushfire]

Absolutely not true. Im level 33 currently and i havent seen two same dungeons yet and ive been into a lot of them.
Yes they are similar in style. Of course they fucking are. How many different styles should a Nord burial tomb fucking have?
In how many different styles should ancient dwemer ruin be built? 57?

I'm level 7 and I've seen 3 ruined towers that are exactly the same, with same enemies (bandits) just different positions. 4 Caves/mines that look almost the same, again, with bandits. You gotta admit that it is repetitive.

If side quests and exploring are so bad then why large majority of players are doing exactly that instead of playing the main quest?

They don't want to end the MQ quickly hence feel playing further is pointless afterwards? Come on, the number of people doing something is never a good basis of its quality.

Idiot. Why would you find hundreds or thousands of gold in fucking jars and urns? What does that have to do with anything?

You don't seem to get the point so let me refer you to an earlier post by VD here. Now I haven't seen much of the game, just been into Holds available at the carriage and did some quests here and there, but based on everything I've read in different forums, I'm inclined to believe that loot distribution is terrible. Do you really think it's realistic for "Legendary blacksmiths" to sell bland iron equips? Wares in the holds I visited aren't any different. Even goddamned Freelancer did better in this regard: I looked forward to going to remote or dangerous systems to see what different things I could buy. No such feeling from Skyrim.

 

[Teepo]

@Hiver What exactly did I say that didn't agree with you?

You know Hiver... there's information on the game on Bethesda forums and else where...

I dislike many things Bethesda did in principle. You don't have to play the game to do that.

Of course, the voice acting in this game is terrible as usual. That might not bother you, but I have standards.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Absolutely not true. Im level 33 currently and i havent seen two same dungeons yet and ive been into a lot of them.
Yes they are similar in style. Of course they fucking are. How many different styles should a Nord burial tomb fucking have?
In how many different styles should ancient dwemer ruin be built? 57?

I'm level 7 and I've seen 3 ruined towers that are exactly the same, with same enemies (bandits) just different positions. 4 Caves/mines that look almost the same, again, with bandits. You gotta admit that it is repetitive.

I'm level 31 and the game's content is very repetitive. Sure, the game is HUGE and has more than 300 locations, but most are the same (with slight variations). It would have been ok if they were worth exploring but most don't offer anything (in terms of quests, items, enemies, etc) that you haven't seen before.

I visited almost every Hold using the carriage, and the smiths wares aren't any different. Even goddamned Freelancer did better in this regard: I looked forward to going to remote or dangerous systems to see what different things I could buy. No such feeling from Skyrim.

Good point.

 

[hiver]

Why does exploration need to be only about loot, anyway?
Isnt exploration primarily about fucking exploring? About Uncovering and experiencing new content, situations and sights?

Exploration can be about many things:

- loot (done well in games like BG2 - exploring side quest locations can really pay off and give you magic items you won't get anywhere else)
- quests (you find something interesting and hopefully challenging to do - once again, let's use BG2 as an example: Windspear Hills and the dungeon with Firkraag are a fairly unique bit of content)

- alternative solutions to quests and situations (like finding a way into the main town in Gothic 2 via exploration)

- sight seeing

Items are so poorly designed (for this type of game) that you have to wonder why Bethesda didn't bother to get someone who understands this shit.-snip-

[Side] Quests? Very primitive. Sure, some places have some kind of story, much like Fallout 3 locations had some kinda story, but it's not enough. It's not enough to clear a fort from a bunch of necromancers and find a diary telling you that necromancers are doing some experiments here. Why not enough? Because this story exists in vacuum and doesn't cast light on anything (unlike the Glow).

"Oh, so all these necromancers were raising some dead here and were up to no good in general... Well, good to know. I was wondering what these NECROMANCERS were up to. Turns out they were going about their necromantic business. Now that I think about it, it makes perfect sense! Thank you, Bethesda, for clearing it up for me!"

So, all that's left is sight seeing, which is the weakest reason to explore, at least in RPGs. It makes Skyrim quite literally a hiking simulator.

Look, items and loot are crappy primarily because they decided to go with their level items shit system instead of hand placing loot around. To me, thats a separate issue from actual exploring.
As much as crafting is too.

Undoubtedly, they both can affect "exploring" if youre that kind of player to whom the "loot" is the primary reason for exploring. Which may hold more true in types of games like BG2 more than here.
Because in a TES game, exploring is not about finding loot. But fucking exploring.
Discovering new places.

Also, - Let us not use BG2 as an example in this because that game was limited in its scope compared to the open world of TES games.
Its not really a problem to make Windspear Hills dungeon (or deArnise castle or Umar hills) when its one of the five-six (whatever) separate locations outside of the main city.
Obviously, bethesda is not in the business of making such RPGs.

Sidequests may not be much when compared to some imaginary super duper RPG but they are there and they function well, some very nicely indeed - for a bethesda game. And some Necromancers i found doing experiments, were writing about it in a journal addressed to a "lady" with tone making it clear its a report to a superior.
I have no idea can i actually find "her" but it does seem like its a possibility, which is nice. Its not just "kill necromancers - move on" type of a thing.

There are also incidental situations such as finding a "victim" of a robbery, that leads you into a bandit trap instead of being simple "kill bandits get some reward" side quest.
These touches give a certain richness and variation to the game content you uncover by exploring.

Most of all Skyrim exploration is actually, about exploring.
And yes, about seeing the sights. Which is one of the primary features of a TES game (FP rendered open world) however someone might dislike that generally. In Oblivion it was largely crap. In Skyrim it largely isnt. There are numerous locations that are simply joy to see just from the artistic design angle. Be it just nature or some ruins or forts, villages etc.

Its also about scaling the mountain in a snow storm and finding dwarven ruins. Or a lonely inn. Or a bandit camp I can sneak into because its night and its snowing so heavily guards dont see me in the snow and i came from the mountain behind them, which gave me ability to sneak closer into a superior ambush stealth-snipe happy position in the first place.

And its about emergent gameplay - which is the most important and best feature of Skyrim.

Simply put, asking for features from other types of RPG games to be prominent in TES Skyrim is not really sensible thing to do.

There are faults in the game, big and small - but exploration aint one of them.

 

[halflingbarbarian]

I'm just curious about these dungeons that are said to be:

flushfire -
"3 ruined towers that are exactly the same, with same enemies (bandits) just different positions. 4 Caves/mines that look almost the same, again, with bandits."

VD -
"the game is HUGE and has more than 300 locations, but most are the same (with slight variations)"

I know you guys don't mean they are EXACTLY the same (though flushfire comes close), but I just want to go look and compare these locations myself and understand the standards you guys hold for uniqueness in a game with 'more than 300 locations'. Map marker names will do, thanks!

I am still quite against the opinion that dungeons are not unique enough in Skyrim, because firstly, it will be utterly silly and disneylandish to have too many tilesets (the variation currently is enough: crypt, fort, cave, dwarven ruins, frozen cave, maybe more, can't recall - and the creative permutations within these sets and between these sets) and I'm still constantly surprised by dungeon layouts, meaning they are unique enough to be refreshing and not predictable.

Personally I'm level 43, explored around half the game world, and found on an average out of 10 'dungeons':

4 that are well done - backstories, enemy placement in interior architecture, puzzles, etc.
4 that are uninspired, but still significantly different in blueprint
2 that are small - sometimes they are logically small, like a den of bears, or a grotto, other times just simplistic and boring dungeon that ends prematurely

Willing to come out with a definite set of locations to showcase this disparity, if anyone is interested. Will also be willing to fraps my next playing session if anyone is vehemently unconvinced.

 

[hiver]

Absolutely not true. Im level 33 currently and i havent seen two same dungeons yet and ive been into a lot of them.
Yes they are similar in style. Of course they fucking are. How many different styles should a Nord burial tomb fucking have?
In how many different styles should ancient dwemer ruin be built? 57?

I'm level 7 and I've seen 3 ruined towers that are exactly the same, with same enemies (bandits) just different positions. 4 Caves/mines that look almost the same, again, with bandits. You gotta admit that it is repetitive.

Thing is that "almost the same" isnt "the same" and also... have you ever seen forts or other types of architecture built in the same time period that look wildly different?
And you havent run into any shit thats exactly the same. Thats a lie.

They don't want to end the MQ quickly hence feel playing further is pointless afterwards? Come on, the number of people doing something is never a good basis of its quality.

No, it actually means that content is good enough for people to keep playing it.
As it is for me.

Idiot. Why would you find hundreds or thousands of gold in fucking jars and urns? What does that have to do with anything?

You don't seem to get the point so let me refer you to an earlier post by VD here. Now I haven't seen much of the game, just been into Holds available at the carriage and did some quests here and there, but based on everything I've read in different forums, I'm inclined to believe that loot distribution is terrible. Do you really think it's realistic for "Legendary blacksmiths" to sell bland iron equips? Wares in the holds I visited aren't any different. Even goddamned Freelancer did better in this regard: I looked forward to going to remote or dangerous systems to see what different things I could buy. No such feeling from Skyrim.

If im not getting the point then you didnt get a brain when you were developing.
I was answering specifically to a complaint about finding too little gold in jars and fucking burial urns.

Aside from that, did i say that leveled loot and items is a good design? DID I?
Freelancer? Are you totally insane?
(thats a rhetorical question, please dont answer - i dont have time to explain the few "discrete" differences between freelancer and Skyrim in that regard)

@Hiver What exactly did I say that didn't agree with you?

Youre criticizing specific things about the game and even worse, making definite conclusions - without playing it. I suggest searching for posts by Skyway here and maybe taking a few pointers.

You know Hiver... there's information on the game on Bethesda forums and else where...

Worth crap. Its all subjective bullshit mostly, exaggeration and intentional misinformation either by ass lickers or rabid malcontents. ie - worthless.

I dislike many things Bethesda did in principle. You don't have to play the game to do that.

Yes you do, in fact. If you want to talk about specifics of this particular game rather than general stuff about bethesda.

 

[Teepo]

Fair enough

I am playing the game right now.

I agree with you about discussing specifics but I have a major problem with this game. Bethesda "does things their own way" and that way is retarded.

I will see if I like the game.

 

[hiver]

You dont have to like the game or stop hating bethesda, as far as im concerned. There are plenty things to criticize in Skyrim. No need to try and twist everything it does into shit.

 

[crufty]

Skill bonuses as perks.

Many DnD feats do it (and do it better).

Example by chance?

I looked at feats as weak and not skill based.

 

[hiver]

Exploring.

 

[Qwertilot]

Actually even levelled loot can work fine - its what roguelikes do after all. You've just got to be intelligent so chests/boss drops > than standard drops, no absolutely hard constraints on what can turn up where etc. Oh and have some truly powerful artifacts, which is one thing they really do seem to have forgotten after Morrowind.

That latter thing really does confuse me a bit because its fairly basic to a dungeon crawler. Although come to think of it, its not just Beth this as none of the recent hack and slash things I've played have really got that right either. Oh well

D&D feats can get awfully powerful, especially in combination.

 

[Gord]

Oh and have some truly powerful artifacts, which is one thing they really do seem to have forgotten after Morrowind.

The Deadra artifacts are still in. And a few quest rewards are pretty neat.

I guess they ditched pre-placing very powerful artifacts after Morrowind because it really encourages meta-gaming. Somewhat interesting by the way - you don't see nearly as much bitching about those artifacts in Morrowind as you see about the crafting in Skyrim even if the effect on your game can be at least as severe.
Both will break the "balance" once you start to exploit it.
And exploiting the artifacts in Morrowind is for the most parts easier than exploiting crafting in Skyrim.

 

[flushfire]

And you havent run into any shit thats exactly the same. Thats a lie.

Really now. Then tell me what is the difference between that tower you run into when going up to Bleak Falls Barrow that's populated with 4 bandits and the one when going to Ivarstead where you're lured into an ambushed by a bandit posing as a robbed caravan master? Same missing walls, same destroyed floor, same chest at the top with nothing but 20g and hide armor.

No, it actually means that content is good enough for people to keep playing it.
As it is for me.

No it means you have the same taste as them, doesn't mean that it is good. Come on. How many people played Bloodlines compared to Oblivion? STALKER to MW3? You can't be that stupid.

Freelancer? Are you totally insane?
(thats a rhetorical question, please dont answer - i dont have time to explain the few "discrete" differences between freelancer and Skyrim in that regard)

Both were developed with exploration as a selling point. Well I'm not so sure about Freelancer but Skyrim definitely was. Except that in Freelancer that's not even the focus, yet it succeeds. Exploring is not just about "finding new places", you'd also find stuff you would not find elsewhere. You'd see views you would not see elsewhere. How about in Skyrim? You said it yourself, the locations are similar. If "New places" to you is the same type of structure with different enemies and decals with not much else then fine. If a different waterfall amazes you when you've run across ten just getting from one hold to next then that is also fine, I can understand that. Some people just expect better from a game of "exploration" is all.

 

[Gord]

No it means you have the same taste as them, doesn't mean that it is good. Come on. How many people played Bloodlines compared to Oblivion? STALKER to MW3? You can't be that stupid.

There are also very likely a few people who like to eat shit. This argument can go both ways.

 

[flushfire]

Which is exactly my point.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Look, items and loot are crappy primarily because they decided to go with their level items shit system instead of hand placing loot around. To me, thats a separate issue from actual exploring.
As much as crafting is too.

They are crappy because the modifiers are crappy, in terms of variety, effect combinations, value to the character, and effect on gameplay. Most robes are "cheaper [school] casting and/or mana regen". Most weapons are + X elemental damage. Etc. Again, compare to D2.

Undoubtedly, they both can affect "exploring" if youre that kind of player to whom the "loot" is the primary reason for exploring.

I'm the kind of player who needs some kind of reason for exploring, other than "the view from this mountain sure is pretty".

Because in a TES game, exploring is not about finding loot. But fucking exploring.
Discovering new places.

In Daggerfall it was the driving force. Daggerfall had a lot more armor pieces and 10 metal types. Slowly upgrading your weapons and armor was one of the aspects that kept you playing and finding the "next level" items was very exciting. In addition, it was well integrated into gameplay as some monsters could only be harmed by certain metals:

Silver or better required to harm lycanthropes, ghosts, wraiths, nymphs, mummies, and standard vampires;
Dwarven or better required to harm harpies;
Mithril or better required to harm gargoyles, ancient vampires, any liches, and any daedra;

It both gave you a reason to keep looking for better stuff and made exploring more dangerous. I still remember running into my first werewolf, hitting it a few times with a steel sword, and realizing - to my horror - that the fucker can't be harmed at all. Had a similar encounter with a lich too. Ran like hell and got lost in a dungeon.

Skyrim doesn't have any of that. You can kill just about fucking anything if you have enough potions.

Also, - Let us not use BG2 as an example in this because that game was limited in its scope compared to the open world of TES games.

Compared to the "a lot more of the same world" of Skyrim, you mean?

I understand that it's a different game and I don't expect a BG2-like adventure from every one of 350+ Skyrim's locations and I'm aware that Daggerfall is the undisputed king when it comes to more of the same. However, DF had strong aspects that Bethesda threw away and didn't replace with anything. If they wanted to create an exciting adventure game, they fell short.

Sidequests may not be much when compared to some imaginary super duper RPG but they are there and they function well, some very nicely indeed - for a bethesda game.

I NEVER compare games and games' features to imaginary RPGs, only to what I've seen done better in the past. In fact, both Daggerfall and Morrowind are games of superior quality. If we're talking about games with a shitload of quality side quests, then Betrayal at Krondor and Antara are such games. I'm sure that Bethesda can afford to hire a decent writer or two to write such quests.

There are also incidental situations such as finding a "victim" of a robbery, that leads you into a bandit trap instead of being simple "kill bandits get some reward" side quest.

It's nice, but nothing special. As in, not worth praising or even mentioning.

Most of all Skyrim exploration is actually, about exploring. And yes, about seeing the sights.

It maybe enough for you, but surely you realize that it's not for everyone?

 

[Vault Dweller]

And exploiting the artifacts in Morrowind is for the most parts easier than exploiting crafting in Skyrim.

The difference is (and it's a major one) that exploiting the artefacts in Morrowind is meta knowledge that doesn't ruin your first gameplay, unless you're following a "how to break the game" guide. Exploiting crafting in Skyrim is so easy, you don't even realize at first that you're exploiting it.

You craft an item you need and get a skill increase. Another item - another increase. Am I supposed to stop now or is this how the game meant to be played? Maybe they want to boost my skills to get to steel items fast and then the speed will slow down a crawl? Same happens with casting soul trap. Every time you cast (at low levels) your skill goes up. Should I cry in fear that I'm breaking the game and stop casting this spell?

 

[hiver]

flushfire you are a moron.

We were not talking about "does mass approval means something is good or not".
We are talking about a specific thing. Quality of gameplay outside of the main quest and by all accounts and by my experience it is good enough. The fact that large majority of people whose opinion, common sense and taste i respect much more than your brainfarts spent a lot of time playing that rather then MQ speaks for itself. Infact i havent seen anyone going around saying that MQ is better than the rest of the game.

Also, you dumbfucking cretin, Freelancer had separate enclosed areas that you coudnt go into before dealing with specific quests and had no level scaling or item scaling you fucking moronic shitbrain.

I said locations in Skyrim are similar? What the fuck? Are you blind?
Did you miss your daily dose of brick hits over the head or something?

Oh and now its not "exactly the same" is it? Now its "same type of a structure", is it?
Not that i didnt adress that particular stupidity three posts before already, but now im supposed to reverse and point out some fairly normal and realistic notions about architecture again?

Go fuck yourself.

-You have successfully added flushfire to your ignore list.-

 

[flushfire]

I don't even think Iron Dagger smithing should be called an exploit. After going through 2 mines with bandits (1 right after those Guardian Stones the other a sidequest in Whiterun) and buying what Iron ore was available in stores, I got enough materials to level Smithing to 50. I wasn't even exploring. Didn't even return to previous vendors to see if they refreshed items. Using the cheapest possible way to level crafting skills was never called an exploit in WoW or any other game for that matter, I don't understand why in Skyrim it should be.

 

[Qwertilot]

Artifacts also a major incentive to exploration if there's a non trivial chance that the loot at the end of the next random dungeon has a good chance of being intriguingly different somehow and has a chance of being useful in genuinely strong sense.

Getting the percentages/rarities etc precisely right is hard but the basic principles aren't and have been very well proven in roguelikes for ages. Although it is possible that they've cut so much cf attributes/armour pieces etc that it'd be hard to do it genuinely well.

 

[Black Cat]

I don't even think Iron Dagger smithing should be called an exploit. After going through 2 mines with bandits (1 right after those Guardian Stones the other a sidequest in Whiterun) and buying what Iron ore was available in stores, I got enough materials to level Smithing to 50. I wasn't even exploring. Didn't even return to previous vendors to see if they refreshed items. Using the cheapest possible way to level crafting skills was never called an exploit in WoW or any other game for that matter, I don't understand why in Skyrim it should be.

Because in MMOs everything people is doing would be usually considered an exploit on a single player game, up from the very foundation of MMO gaming: Following detailed step by step character guides instead of just building your own.

 

[flushfire]

-You have successfully added flushfire to your ignore list.-

I have not seen so much butthurt in a long time

Because in MMOs everything people is doing would be usually considered an exploit on a single player game, up from the very foundation of MMO gaming: Following detailed step by step character guides instead of just building your own.

So doing those generic kill bandit leader in this cave an exploit?

 

[Gord]

You craft an item you need and get a skill increase. Another item - another increase. Am I supposed to stop now or is this how the game meant to be played?

So I still hold the opinion that if played "normaly" this won't cause a problem, but ok, I see your point.
Thing is that alchemy really seems to be working differently.
I get next to no xp from brewing a simple health potion, but quite a lot from others (either because I have not brewed them so often yet or because they require rare ingredients?). Also it takes ages to raise by just producing common potions.
Which makes me wonder, why did they manage to "balance" alchemy in a way that would probably satisfy you (does it?), but not smithing?
So, either it's a bug (unlikely), or
they assume that you produce a couple of items for your personal use and not more, in which case it might work. But that's obviously not what you and others are after.

 

[hiver]

Undoubtedly, they both can affect "exploring" if youre that kind of player to whom the "loot" is the primary reason for exploring.

I'm the kind of player who needs some kind of reason for exploring, other than "the view from this mountain sure is pretty".

I really dont give a fuck. Go talk to someone whose actual argument is " that sure looks pretty".

Most of all Skyrim exploration is actually, about exploring. And yes, about seeing the sights.

It maybe enough for you, but surely you realize that it's not for everyone?

How about if i chop up your answers into inane one liners and go replying to those? Wont that be a fruitful discussion.

In Daggerfall it was the driving force. Daggerfall had a lot more armor pieces and 10 metal types.

I havnet played it but ill take your word for it.
Apart from that... hasnt even Morowind been proclaimed a dumbed down game compared to daggerfall?
You seriously expected that Skyrim might have any of that kind of complexity?
Like after being dumbed down to morowind and then obliblion?

I was expecting crap on the level of obliblion and Fart3, personally.

It both gave you a reason to keep looking for better stuff and made exploring more dangerous.

cool. now you have other reasons. which dont work for you. because all you see is another pretty picture... instead of Daggerfall reborn.

Skyrim doesn't have any of that. You can kill just about fucking anything if you have enough potions.

potion mechanics is separate issue to exploring.

Also, - Let us not use BG2 as an example in this because that game was limited in its scope compared to the open world of TES games.

Compared to the "a lot more of the same world" of Skyrim, you mean?

No, i of course mean open continuous world as opposed to limited specific locations world.
A lot more of the same? You must be joking.

I understand that it's a different game and I don't expect a BG2-like adventure from every one of 350+ Skyrim's locations and I'm aware that Daggerfall is the undisputed king when it comes to more of the same. However, DF had strong aspects that Bethesda threw away and didn't replace with anything. If they wanted to create an exciting adventure game, they fell short.

They fell short of making a new Daggerfall, or it only even better. mkay.
No arguments from me.

I NEVER compare games and games' features to imaginary RPGs,
only to what I've seen done better in the past. In fact, both Daggerfall and Morrowind are games of superior quality.

Your expectations are unrealistic. The company that made Daggerfall hasnt existed for a long time now.
And you seem to forget what current bethesda is doing and for what market.

Morowind is not of the same quality, let alone superior. The fucking thing didnt even have dialogue.
It did some things better, did others much worse.

It's nice, but nothing special. As in, not worth praising or even mentioning.

Oh its worth mentioning.

Most of all Skyrim exploration is actually, about exploring. And yes, about seeing the sights.

It maybe enough for you, but surely you realize that it's not for everyone?

Im sure your cropping will provide enough sustenance for "everyone".