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Fuck YES!

kris

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Skittles said:
RPGs aren't about the villains. Maybe they matter in crossover games, like System Shock and Deus Ex, but that's because they get their storytelling cues from Hollywood-esque FPS games.

RPGs are about the character(s) you play. For a really effective villain, you need an antagonist who has conflicting values and goals, who meets the protagonist at the right times and does the right things. That means you need to take away some control of the character's personality and, more importantly, the playstyle in a game.

Main villian. You are talking about the main villian which you meet in the end.

Villians in RPG is the most important part since they are mostly about conflict and everyone you are in conflict with will be the villian. Well, okay, antagonists if you don't want to be the good guy all of the time.

So this talk about antagonist revolves around every conflict in the game. How it is constructed and why there is a conflict. A main villian(s) is about how much the game revolves around the story. There is not much to a story about conflict without an interesting antagonist.
 

Captain Shrek

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MOTB.


it deals with the idea of non-believers in a world with walls made of souls.
 

Black

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Was it really about non-believers? It's kind of hard to not believe in gods in a world where gods can walk on earth. I thought it was about people who simply didn't worship any deities.
 

Captain Shrek

Guest
Black said:
Was it really about non-believers? It's kind of hard to not believe in gods in a world where gods can walk on earth. I thought it was about people who simply didn't worship any deities.

yes. Sorry about that. I meant Non-worshipers. My mistake.

EDIT: Although I do remember the Hagspawn saying that he does not believe in gods or rather their role as gods. He rather chooses to believe in the Spirits instead.
 
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ScottishMartialArts said:
Wyrmlord said:
You just finished Arena? Wow. It's one long long game.

Jagar Tharn has a really cool avatar.

I've been really sick the past few days so I didn't have anything better to do. The game is long, but not that long, particularly if you only explore enough of the dungeons to find the quest objects. Anyone that fully maps out each dungeon is fucking insane. Passwall helped a bunch too, particularly in the Halls of the Colossus and Dagoth-Ur.

Although I pretty much hated the game, I will say that Jagar Tharn is a pretty decent villain. He isn't complex or nuanced, but to be honest he doesn't need to be: he's an evil wizard with a cool name, who antagonizes you every step of your quest.

It's funny how some developers still haven't cottoned onto the observation that interaction means more than 'good writing' when it comes to developing an interesting antagonist. BG2 should have set the permanent standard for this: neither Irenicus nor Bodhi were particularly innovative characters - on paper they are straight up boring (aside from the subversion of the 'chosen one' storyline - the idea of a couple of folks jacking both the chosen one and the big bad villain at the same time was pretty cool) - but they seemed awesome to me because they were the first time I'd ever seen crpg villains act as more than 'end-bosses' (waiting at the end of the final dungeon for you to beat them) - they were in your face from the start, grew stronger and changed over the course of the game, and actually gave the illusion of a genuine competitor, out there and actively gaining power, rather than the guy who waits at the end of the dungeon.

Some developers have recognised this. Avellone has done it in every game from PS:T - if the enemy doesn't directly interact, he/she will be constantly foreshadowed and dominant the background of everything you do. In PS:T this was handled in stages - first you scrounge the hive for info on Pharod, then a whole bunch of seemingly unrelated sidequests foreshadow Ravel to immense effect, and (slightly less effective than Ravel in my opinion) the final act takes pieces from all over the game's various stages and casts them in a new light to characterise the villain/s (TTO, the previous incarnations and perhaps even TNO as a whole).

Fuck, even in some mid-rate games, like Bioshock, simply having a villain PRESENT and communicating with the character (Andrew Ryan/will-you-kindly/etc) makes a big difference. Also see the Joker in Arkham Asylum. ALl of which are just rip-offs of SHODAN and the Many in SS1 and 2, but why the fuck did it take the gaming industry a decade of boring wait-at-the-end-of-the-dungeon bosses to relearn such an obvious lesson?
 
In My Safe Space
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Codex 2012
Erzherzog said:
Once again, in Fallout, it's impossible without increasing your speech abilities at every level up. In AP it's literally just a question of "did you do everything which we clearly gave you the option to do?" You can get the non-combat solution with a fucking combat orientated character! This is exactly why action RPGs ruin the RPG aspect of themselves. Are you not understanding that there's a big difference? The diplomat character in Fallout gets gunned down like a joke.
Not when he tagged small guns and energy weapons :smug: .
 

Erzherzog

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Skittles said:
Can you point to where I said ''you should like this?" The closest I came to that, as far as I can see, was by saying that the handling of Leland as a villain was a real update to the handling of the Master that causes people around here to defend him--and it was weird that people shit on AP while professing admiration for the Master's design.

You said:
Yeah, I think AP's ending sequence is everything a Master lover should dream of.

According to you, not only is it something that anyone that liked Fallout's ending should like, but out and out "dream of."

And I've already noted the significant differences between the two.

It is weird that kneejerk hatred of a game would cause somebody to derail a discussion of mechanics when that game's mentioned.

It wasn't kneejerk hatred. You cited it as "good implementation" and I think it is very, very poor.

I address these points because I fully accept that you apparently think I've done you some personal slight and I do want to work that out. For the rest, I don't think we're speaking the same language on some things, on others, I don't think you're trying to have a conversation.

The only one complaining is you. I don't want to accuse you of projecting but you're taking my dislike of AP as a personal backlash. Yes, I think your appreciation of the game is idiotic. Oh noes, I've gotten personal.
 

Erzherzog

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Skittles said:
Can you point to where I said ''you should like this?" The closest I came to that, as far as I can see, was by saying that the handling of Leland as a villain was a real update to the handling of the Master that causes people around here to defend him--and it was weird that people shit on AP while professing admiration for the Master's design.

You said:
Yeah, I think AP's ending sequence is everything a Master lover should dream of.

According to you, not only is it something that anyone that liked Fallout's ending should like, but out and out "dream of."

And I've already noted the significant differences between the two.

It is weird that kneejerk hatred of a game would cause somebody to derail a discussion of mechanics when that game's mentioned.

It wasn't kneejerk hatred. You cited it as "good implementation" and I think it is very, very poor.

I address these points because I fully accept that you apparently think I've done you some personal slight and I do want to work that out. For the rest, I don't think we're speaking the same language on some things, on others, I don't think you're trying to have a conversation.

The only one complaining is you. I don't want to accuse you of projecting but you're taking my dislike of AP as a personal backlash. Yes, I think your appreciation of the game is idiotic. Oh noes, I've gotten personal.
 

Skittles

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kris said:
Main villian. You are talking about the main villian which you meet in the end.

Villians in RPG is the most important part since they are mostly about conflict and everyone you are in conflict with will be the villian. Well, okay, antagonists if you don't want to be the good guy all of the time.

So this talk about antagonist revolves around every conflict in the game. How it is constructed and why there is a conflict. A main villian(s) is about how much the game revolves around the story. There is not much to a story about conflict without an interesting antagonist.

But are the rats and bandits you inevitably fight along the way villains? They're opponents, yes, but there's no emotional investment because they're not characters. You're using a literary term inappropriately to talk about a game mechanic.

For example, one of the early side quests in Betrayal at Krondor has you kill this stone creature in a mine. Along the way you encounter and dispatch bandits. Mechanically, the stone creature is an opponent and an objective while the bandits are opponents and obstacles. They have identities in the story, but they're not characters--they have no 'agency,' the plot doesn't hinge on them, they don't develop. If you call those villains, then isn't every locked door in an RPG a villain?

@Erzherzog: :salute: Stupid with a keyboard wins every time.
 
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ScottishMartialArts

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*Ahem* So I finished Daggerfall the other night. Since this thread now seems to be about villains, I thought I'd comment on the fact that Daggerfall doesn't really have clear villains. None of the players have their hands clean, to be sure, but they aren't Jagar Tharn either. The only other game I can think of that took the "no clear villains"-approach was Deus Ex: Invisible War, so it's fairly unique in gaming. I ended up siding with The Underking this time around, if for no other reason than he seemed to have the most legitimate claim to the Mantella and the Totem. I was rather disappointed with the Necromancer's Amulet however, so the reward for siding with him wasn't great.

Unlike Arena, Daggerfall is genuinely enjoyable game. The only real flaw from a fun perspective is that sometimes the quest object in a dungeon is very well hidden and you end up spending an hour retracing all of your steps to find it. The game has plenty of other flaws to be sure -- such as non-existent NPC interaction -- but none of them really impact the enjoyment of the game. Now I'm torn between creating another character and playing the game some more, or moving on to Battlespire.
 
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No game villains can ever beat the villains we live under IRL, the profound depth of mass-psychic mindfuckery perpetrated by our overlords on the "moon".
 

Lonely Vazdru

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ScottishMartialArts said:
So I finished Daggerfall the other night.
:salute:

OcatoDaggerfall.JPG

Excuse the gloom, but none may know of this meeting. I won't be caught dead in the immediate vicinity of a person of undefined gender but I have to congratulate you just the same.
 

Sceptic

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Divinity: Original Sin
abnaxus said:
The biggest flaw of Daggerfall is that no matter whom you give the Totem to, absolutely nothing in the gameworld changes even though teh Numidium changed the entire face of the region, both political and geographical.
They really should've done away with the "keep playing" thing entirely. But I can see why they did have it; the MQ is such a small part of the game that it's understandable you'd want to keep playing and experience the tons of content you're likely to have missed. But at the same time, the MQ is the only questline that has major implications of things changing in the gameworld, and it is disappointing that everything is exactly as before. It never bothered me because I always postpone the end of the MQ until I'm done with a particular playthrough (not to mention that, before the unofficial patch, it was SO easy to bug out the MQ and so never be able to complete it), but it can still be jarring.

ScottishMartialArts said:
Now I'm torn between creating another character and playing the game some more, or moving on to Battlespire.
Well done. I'd suggest moving to Battlespire (though in terms of chronology you should've probably played it before Arena) and coming back to DF later on. Oh and have fun with the Battlespire char creation; it's probably my favorite in the entire genre. Grab a hold of the manual before you start though; several mechanics are different from the way they worked in DF, and you can get yourself into a nasty setup if you're not aware of this.
 

Zomg

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People playing Daggerfall should do like 3-4 of the fully randomized dungeon quests all the way through and then from that point you are allowed to use the teleport cheats because you've earned it soldier. The set MQ dungeons aren't as ridiculous though.
 

Redlands

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ScottishMartialArts said:
And you guys accuse me of hijacking threads. :P

What's good for the gander is good for the gander-to-goose transsexual.
 
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ScottishMartialArts

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GarfunkeL said:
Good going SMA. Keep moving, don't lose steam.

Well I'm splitting my time between Elder Scrolls and DCS Black Shark these days. Just about done with chapter 1 of the Georgian Oil War campaign; I'll probably finish that up before pushing on to Battlespire.
 
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ScottishMartialArts

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So I just finished the first level of Battlespire. My initial impressions are generally positive. The game is a bit clunky and crashes like a motherfucker but I'm still getting good, Ultima Underworld-ish vibes from it. Quite difficult little game though, particularly the two spider daedra you fight at the beginning of the second level.
 

Sceptic

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ScottishMartialArts said:
The game is a bit clunky and crashes like a motherfucker
Did you apply the patch? I only played the patched game and never had a single crash. I suspect either corrupt files or some weird setting in your dosbox config. It's a MUCH more stable game than DF. Still quite pretty too IMO.

Quite difficult little game though, particularly the two spider daedra you fight at the beginning of the second level.
Yeah, it's quite difficult at first. I have good memories of getting raped by the dremora about 15 seconds into the game. One of the weapon types is cheesily overpowered, but I'm not gonna say which unless you really want me to.
 
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ScottishMartialArts

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I seem to have encountered a bug in Battlespire where I can't equip any new weapons. Given that weapons degrade, this is basically a game ending bug for this character. And this game is blisteringly difficult. The first level isn't bad, but the second level is extremely difficult, and the third level looks to be even worse. I say looks to be because now that my character is unable to equip weapons, I can't exactly go exploring.
 
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ScottishMartialArts

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Alright Codex, I need your help. I'm on the verge of giving up on Battlespire as too fucking difficult. I need advice for getting through this game. Are there any OP character builds I can take advantage of? Cheap exploits? Anything at all to make this fucking hard game any easier? I'm having to do multiple reloads for nearly every fight, and am just barely scraping by with all my potions and magic items used up.
 

Sceptic

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One word: archery.

I didn't even tag my archery skill as major or minor; started with something like 5 in it. Here's the trick: ARCHERY NEVER MISSES. EVER. All melee attacks can miss. Magic attacks need magicka. Bows don't need anything and ALWAYS hit, as long as you are aiming properly (not that hard even at a distance; I think there's a minor form of auto-target at play). The only thing you have to worry about is your bows breaking down, but as long as you pick them all up you should be fine (and obviously keep the more powerful ones against more powerful foes and dispose of weaker foes with the lesser bows).

I did warn you about char creation too. There are three ways to regenerate health: potions, the heal spell, and the regenrate trait you can pick up at chargen. There are only two ways to regenerate magicka in the game: potions and the regenrate trait you can pick up at chargen (spell absorbtion is HARD to control, and not recommended for a beginner). If you didn't pick either regen health or regen magicka you're going to have a MUCH harder time.

You don't need to kill everything. Stealth is very easy to raise; as long as it's active, it goes up (don't need to be near enemies like in MW). The first time you're exploring an area, do so with stealth always on; you need to go slowly to see what's ahead anyway, and with high stealth you see the enemies before they see you.

NEVER use your build points to raise skills. Skills are easy to raise. Stats are MUCH harder. Ergo, throw all spare build points into stats. Depending on what build you're going for, pick stats accordingly. Keep in mind that, unlike DF, you cannot raise a skill above its governing stat; so if you're focused on one particular attack skill, always keep raising its stat.

Obviously, if you're going the magic way, you MUST pick 3xINT.

Basically, forget about having a jack of all trades like in all other TES games. Focus focus focus!

Man up and finish it!
 
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ScottishMartialArts

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Sceptic said:
Man up and finish it!

I created a new character yesterday -- a slightly modified High Elf Battlemage -- and have managed to make it to the 4th level. I got lucky with magic items, finding one that grants constant hp regeneration and another which grants constant spell absorption, so things are substantially easier this time around. I still struggled with the 2nd level where you have those damned spider daedra, but my character finally seems to be coming into her own and is kicking fire and ice daedra ass in Shade Perilous. I'll probably actually finish the game now that the difficulty is manageable, although supposedly saves get easily corrupted in level 5 and that might lead to a rage quit.
 
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I remember the game as a challenge but not rage-quit difficult.

I don't have the game installed but I have save files from 10 years ago. Here you go:
http://www.mediafire.com/?nhfhu5u58c1o2cs

I kept a save at the end of each level so you should be able to get a sense of my progression through different saves and check out my starting character. I really don't remember any details, though but I'm almost sure you'll find it useful as a reference.
 

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