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Game News Bethesda: Making Games for the PC Gamers

Joined
Sep 4, 2009
Messages
3,520
Wunderpurps said:
Does he have 100% or even 40% more FPS? No. Numbers like that are meaningless with no context, especially with an up to prepended to them.

When you make a naive test and boot up the game for 2 minutes then memory is not fragmented and you get no cache misses, and you get overoptimistic benchmark results.

So you play 5 minutes and there's zero cache misses, then the gets and sets could possibly be slower I guess. When you play for a few hours then things are less rosy, and then your instruction count doesn't matter at all because memory is fragmented and the weak spot is fetching data into memory.

So a few guys in a few cases seeminly got much better performance for a few minutes not specified in FPS, but most people even on short runs are not seeing more than 5-10 fps difference. I'm guess if they loaded the same game midway into the game and did the same stuff for about an hour the frame difference would be more like 1-2 FPS most of the time.

:hearnoevil:

So wasting half your CPU time doesn't matter because eventually Skyrim's horrible memory problems will slow the game down more? Impeccable logic.

Furthermore, he said up to 40% improvement. FPS tests in CPU-intense areas show up to 40%. What more do you want?

Wunderpurps said:
With the optimization, what can I say. I know for a fact you won't get any SSE instructions from your own code without writing them out yourself. When I run non graphics code I only get about 30% speedup compared to full debug mode, and the only option that does much aside from removing debug data is inlining.

The ability of the compiler to improve your code is inversely proportional to your ability to write good code in the first place.

For graphics code it all depends on what your app is doing but hopefully if you are a decent programmer with a decent engine you are only CPU bound when you have legitimate reason, such as calculating a bunch of paths.

OK, can we get back to talking about Bethesda's code?
 

circ

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Wunderpurps said:
Does he have 100% or even 40% more FPS? No. Numbers like that are meaningless with no context, especially with an up to prepended to them.
I couldn't give a shit about Skyrim, but seriously. Nowhere does he say 40% more FPS, or potentially 100%. Performance != FPS.
 

Deleted member 7219

Guest
This mod actually works. I just loaded up the game and went to that city in the west which has all the waterfalls. Before trying the mod I was getting almost unbearable slowdowns in that area, especially when looking at the waterfalls. Now I don't get any lag at all.
 

J_C

One Bit Studio
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Matt7895 said:
This mod actually works. I just loaded up the game and went to that city in the west which has all the waterfalls. Before trying the mod I was getting almost unbearable slowdowns in that area, especially when looking at the waterfalls. Now I don't get any lag at all.
And does it break the game in any way, or cause some kind of problem?
 

Deleted member 7219

Guest
J_C said:
Matt7895 said:
This mod actually works. I just loaded up the game and went to that city in the west which has all the waterfalls. Before trying the mod I was getting almost unbearable slowdowns in that area, especially when looking at the waterfalls. Now I don't get any lag at all.
And does it break the game in any way, or cause some kind of problem?

No idea. I'm running the game with barely any mods installed besides this one. I have SkyUI and the face texture mods, and haven't experienced any problems. But I've completed every quest so now all I'm doing is riding around and clearing out the occasional cave.
 

Wunderpurps

Educated
Joined
Sep 27, 2011
Messages
569
Overweight Manatee said:
Wunderpurps said:
Does he have 100% or even 40% more FPS? No. Numbers like that are meaningless with no context, especially with an up to prepended to them.

When you make a naive test and boot up the game for 2 minutes then memory is not fragmented and you get no cache misses, and you get overoptimistic benchmark results.

So you play 5 minutes and there's zero cache misses, then the gets and sets could possibly be slower I guess. When you play for a few hours then things are less rosy, and then your instruction count doesn't matter at all because memory is fragmented and the weak spot is fetching data into memory.

So a few guys in a few cases seeminly got much better performance for a few minutes not specified in FPS, but most people even on short runs are not seeing more than 5-10 fps difference. I'm guess if they loaded the same game midway into the game and did the same stuff for about an hour the frame difference would be more like 1-2 FPS most of the time.

:hearnoevil:

So wasting half your CPU time doesn't matter because eventually Skyrim's horrible memory problems will slow the game down more? Impeccable logic.

Furthermore, he said up to 40% improvement. FPS tests in CPU-intense areas show up to 40%. What more do you want?

Wunderpurps said:
With the optimization, what can I say. I know for a fact you won't get any SSE instructions from your own code without writing them out yourself. When I run non graphics code I only get about 30% speedup compared to full debug mode, and the only option that does much aside from removing debug data is inlining.

The ability of the compiler to improve your code is inversely proportional to your ability to write good code in the first place.

For graphics code it all depends on what your app is doing but hopefully if you are a decent programmer with a decent engine you are only CPU bound when you have legitimate reason, such as calculating a bunch of paths.

OK, can we get back to talking about Bethesda's code?

But you're not wasting half your CPU's time, and while the SSE probably did some performance improvement it's really unlikely that removing some gets and sets will improve performance enough to be worth arguing over. And since using SSE is a big deal, much bigger than the modder says, it shows that they are full of crap.

Simply checking some boxes wouldn't help the performance much, if any.
 

hanssolo

Educated
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Apr 28, 2010
Messages
863
Bethesda don't hire coders. They hire modders for their zombie-Gamebryo.
 
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villain of the story said:
It's amazing, really. They have shit programmers. Shit coders. Shit animators. Shit texture artists. Shit 3D artists. Shit writers. Shit game design. Literally, shit is oozing out of their entire catalogue. It's like a catalogue of sewage.

And yet, somehow, it just works when it all comes together.

Lack of competition.

Seriously, how many AAA graphics developers make massive open world 'LARP along as you like', fantasy-fullfillment, games? The only real genre competitors I can think of are the Gothic/Risen games and Two Worlds. Two Worlds isn't great - it's a really difficult genre to do, afteralll, and I'm not even sure that I'd call the Gothic/Risen games the same genre as Bethesda (except Gothic 3, which was killed by bugs, terrible combat on release that was massively altered and saved by mods, and only really showed up how bad Bethesda was after a good 12 months of community patchiing).

Bethesda can make shit and sell bucketloads because they are making a style of game that LOTS of people want, and have wanted ever since the Ultima games, AND one that is really really difficult to make at the best of times (you need a large studio wuth the capacity to self-pubkush - or one of the very few publishing companies that is 'developer first, publisher second', because theres no fucking way that making this type of game will fit the 'game-per-year- schedule of most professional publishers, AND one where the few competitors that do exist aren't that crash hot (I like Gothic/Risen, but I can understand why they might target different parts of the same market, and why newbies might need experience with other crpgs before they couild go into Gothic 3, or even Risen, comfortably.

So, popular product, hard market to enter, few competitors, of course they sell fuckloads irrespective of shittiness.
 

Akasen

Augur
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Joined
Aug 24, 2011
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PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015
I have an idea then! Let's make a game where the combat is turn based and uses tiles and then everything else real time! Then you have skills you can use both inside and outside combat!

Wait, this sounds familiar on so many levels.
 
Joined
Oct 4, 2010
Messages
1,436
Pfft, no matter how much you polish a turd, it's still a turd.

No amount of modding will make this game good.
 

Luzur

Good Sir
Joined
Feb 12, 2009
Messages
41,392
Location
Swedish Empire
I have an idea then! Let's make a game where the combat is turn based and uses tiles and then everything else real time! Then you have skills you can use both inside and outside combat!

Wait, this sounds familiar on so many levels.

sounds like Might and Magic 6
 

Luzur

Good Sir
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Messages
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675agh.jpg
 

Cassidy

Arcane
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Sep 9, 2007
Messages
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Location
Vault City
Why do you care so much about the performance of a LARPing simulator? Did the Codex turn overnight into a community with a majority of single-player LARPers instead of people who enjoy real CRPGs?

Whoever buys it more than deserves its "performance" in both gameplay and technical execution, same on those who pirate it. Suck it up sheeple.
 

GarfunkeL

Racism Expert
Joined
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Messages
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Insert clever insult here
And does it break the game in any way, or cause some kind of problem?
I've been playing with that mod for a week or so now and haven't noticed any problems. The improvement was good, my 3-year old laptop went from often-choppy at low settings to occasionally-choppy at medium settings. So thumbs up to the modder and STFU to Wunderpups.
 

Black

Arcane
Joined
May 8, 2007
Messages
1,872,592
I don't know, why is skyrim on gamebryo when they already had id tech?
 

WhiskeyWolf

RPG Codex Polish Car Thief
Staff Member
Joined
Nov 4, 2007
Messages
14,756
Because Skyrim was already in development when Zenimax acquired iD Software
Or just maybe Beth can't code for shit. If you notice all the technical problems with Skyrim (on all platforms, PS3 most notably) you may come to the conclusion that the skill level of programmers Beth hires is below average, or lower (with adequate pay). Now, they can't use the iD engine because *gasp* they would actually have to hire some proper code monkeys.
 

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