Fallout: is the Master evil?

[JagreenLern]

The obvious answer would be yes. Certainly capturing people and forcibly turning them into mutants would qualify as an evil act. But if he's actually evil, why does he kill himself after find out his mutants are sterile? If all he wants is power, the sterility issue would only be a setback, not a complete failure. His ability to create and control the mutants could still give him the greatest military force in the wasteland. The BoS is tough, but their power mainly comes from the advanced technology, such as power armor and energy weapons. The Mutants on the other hand, are innately more physically powerful than humans, and wouldn't need to rely on high-tech gadgets as much as the BoS. If the NCR was eventually able to beat back the BoS, the Master probably could have done the same, and a real megalomaniac would certainly try.
So it seems to me that the best explanation for the Master's suicide is that he knew all along that his actions where monstrous, but believed it was all for the greater good, and upon learning of the flaw in his plan, the horror of his actions overwhelmed him and he decided to end his own existence. This, in my mind, would make the Master more of tragic figure than a truly evil villain.

So, whaddya think, Codexia?

 

[Infinitron]

I think that the Master not realizing his mutants were sterile on his own was unbelievable to the extreme.
But it won't stop the Codex from heroworshipping this game.

 

[Roguey]

The Master is crazy and has multiple personalities and mood swings due to absorbing so many people. If you tell him the mutants are sterile and then tell him it's just a setback, he'll agree and attack you. He's evil.

 

[Wyrmlord]

The Master is just a chemical accident, a destroyed waste of a post-human creature. Good or evil does not even apply.

Yes, he had a high level of cognizance, but all in all, what we had here was a shattered broken mind created by multiple personalities merged into one.

The Master, to me, was just meant as a horrible echo of the old pre-war world when US government's technological superiority was capable of inflicting great terror on people. The Master was a result of an accident in those very labs where such technology was produced. It shows that even though the old US is dead, it still produces ripples and echoes across time that manifest themselves in the form of super mutants and the Master.

 

[oldmansavage]

The Master is just a chemical accident, a destroyed waste of a post-human creature. Good or evil does not even apply.

Yes, he had a high level of cognizance, but all in all, what we had here was a shattered broken mind created by multiple personalities merged into one.

The Master, to me, was just meant as a horrible echo of the old pre-war world when US government's technological superiority was capable of inflicting great terror on people. The Master was a result of an accident in those very labs where such technology was produced. It shows that even though the old US is dead, it still produces ripples and echoes across time that manifest themselves in the form of super mutants and the Master.

I like it.

 

[hiver]

plus it was just badly and insufficiently developed "DIALOGUE WIN" option about which people talk too much.

 

[Lockkaliber]

The Master is just a chemical accident, a destroyed waste of a post-human creature. Good or evil does not even apply.

Yes, he had a high level of cognizance, but all in all, what we had here was a shattered broken mind created by multiple personalities merged into one.

The Master, to me, was just meant as a horrible echo of the old pre-war world when US government's technological superiority was capable of inflicting great terror on people. The Master was a result of an accident in those very labs where such technology was produced. It shows that even though the old US is dead, it still produces ripples and echoes across time that manifest themselves in the form of super mutants and the Master.

Well put.

 

[Eyeball]

Rather than being simply good or evil, The Master is the sophisticated result of truly terrible and half-assed writing. Discussing the motivations of such a sad, twisted creature is futile.

 

[Black]

The Master is just a chemical accident

But aren't we chemical accidents as well?!

 

[Azrael the cat]

The Master is just a chemical accident, a destroyed waste of a post-human creature. Good or evil does not even apply.

Yes, he had a high level of cognizance, but all in all, what we had here was a shattered broken mind created by multiple personalities merged into one.

The Master, to me, was just meant as a horrible echo of the old pre-war world when US government's technological superiority was capable of inflicting great terror on people. The Master was a result of an accident in those very labs where such technology was produced. It shows that even though the old US is dead, it still produces ripples and echoes across time that manifest themselves in the form of super mutants and the Master.

Excellent analysis.

It fits with the main themes of Fallout: part of the 'war never changes' idea. People keep on paying for the mistakes of their forefathers - indiirectly and weirdly through the Master, and directly through the Enclave continuing the government's previous project (and saying 'fuck you' to the genuine small-scale states that are beginning to form at a grass-roots level).

 

[Father Walker]

The obvious answer would be yes. Certainly capturing people and forcibly turning them into mutants would qualify as an evil act. But if he's actually evil, why does he kill himself after find out his mutants are sterile? If all he wants is power, the sterility issue would only be a setback, not a complete failure. His ability to create and control the mutants could still give him the greatest military force in the wasteland. The BoS is tough, but their power mainly comes from the advanced technology, such as power armor and energy weapons. The Mutants on the other hand, are innately more physically powerful than humans, and wouldn't need to rely on high-tech gadgets as much as the BoS. If the NCR was eventually able to beat back the BoS, the Master probably could have done the same, and a real megalomaniac would certainly try.
So it seems to me that the best explanation for the Master's suicide is that he knew all along that his actions where monstrous, but believed it was all for the greater good, and upon learning of the flaw in his plan, the horror of his actions overwhelmed him and he decided to end his own existence. This, in my mind, would make the Master more of tragic figure than a truly evil villain.

So, whaddya think, Codexia?

He's either a badly written villain or just mentally unstable coward. Take a look at Hitler, the guy did dream about a 1000 year Reich, yet he didn't hestitate to kill himself when the shit hit the fan. I'd say that Master's suicide is just an act of cowardice. He prefers to die than to face the grim reality of his actions. So in a way he was just a fucking subhuman driven by fear.

Then again, if you judge his actions on a purely moral basis, he's clearly evil. Being a tragic figure doesn't change this.

 

[TalesfromtheCrypt]

Woah, I don't recommend bringing up this topic over at NMA. Those morons will fall in a frenzy and jump at you relentlessly until you're ready to admit that the master is a deeply moraly ambigious villain and actually only had the best for humanity in mind.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

So it seems to me that the best explanation for the Master's suicide is that he knew all along that his actions where monstrous, but believed it was all for the greater good, and upon learning of the flaw in his plan, the horror of his actions overwhelmed him and he decided to end his own existence.

He decided to kill himself because he realized his plans had already failed. He's an egotistical fuck who only cares about his beautiful plan, not about the people involved in it (which were left on their own because they suddenly ceased to be useful).

 

[Wyrmlord]

Woah, I don't recommend bringing up this topic over at NMA. Those morons will fall in a frenzy and jump at you relentlessly until you're ready to admit that the master is a deeply moraly ambigious villain and actually only had the best for humanity in mind.

They take Fallout that seriously?

I used to post at Knights of the Old Republic forums of BioWare, and the posters there were convinced that Revan and Malak were super-geniuses in the plan they conceived and only "fell" to the dark side as some short term convenience for a greater plan to save the galaxy. It's like they fill in their own blanks.

Evil for the greater good is a very popular concept among gamers.

 

[Surf Solar]

Woah, I don't recommend bringing up this topic over at NMA. Those morons will fall in a frenzy and jump at you relentlessly until you're ready to admit that the master is a deeply moraly ambigious villain and actually only had the best for humanity in mind.

I take Fallout quite serious and often post on NMA - but that doesn't mean that certain elements the game had can't be flawed. I've seen quite a lot of such discussions there, it's not that "Fallout=100% perfect, every single element is teh best!1" - more of the contrary, small elements get discussed and criticised to death there all the time.

As for the topic, I never really was a fan of the Master and all the fuzz around. I could perfectly live with a game without the Master, some "Psyker" people with magic abilities and all that fuzz.

 

[Zomg]

Setting has no spells that detect or operate on evilness so I cannot say

 

[Azrael the cat]

Woah, I don't recommend bringing up this topic over at NMA. Those morons will fall in a frenzy and jump at you relentlessly until you're ready to admit that the master is a deeply moraly ambigious villain and actually only had the best for humanity in mind.

They take Fallout that seriously?

I used to post at Knights of the Old Republic forums of BioWare, and the posters there were convinced that Revan and Malak were super-geniuses in the plan they conceived and only "fell" to the dark side as some short term convenience for a greater plan to save the galaxy. It's like they fill in their own blanks.

Evil for the greater good is a very popular concept among gamers.

Was this before or after KoTOR2? If after, then it's simply established lore (if you dig deep enough into the game) that that's exactly what Revan did, in order to militarise the galaxy against a distant but massively militarised sith-run galaxy that had its eyes on it. Kreia even notes that the 'Sith' following Revan weren't the true sith - they were just ragtag fallen Jedi, but somewhere out there was a true Sith empire, built upon Sith warriors who had never been Jedi but were 'pure' Sith, so to speak, with a knowledge of the Sith powers that made the fallen Jedi look pathetic.

In KOTOR2 it's indicated (if you dig deeply - the Revan deliberately going dark side is one of the easier bits of info to dig up, though also easily skippable if you're just plowing through) that Revan (through Carth and the battle against ihim and Malik) forced the Republic to put together an actual decent army that wasn't constantly reliant on the Jedi for every minor decision, 'encourages' a deeply militarised criminal sector (though he never knew GoTO would end up running it), frees the Wookies for another potential army (as occurs in KoTOR) and (if you look into the cut droid factory content) that he deliberately set up yet another army of psychopathic killer robots at his command.

Malik, on the other hand, was just a dumb idiot who went derp and almost fucked Revan's plan completely (if Malik had won, Revan's plan would have been destroyed). It's noted in KoTOR that Revan was conducting tactical precision hits, while Malik was just destroying everything. Now for Bioware that was just a way of showing how 'evil' (read: cliched and shithouse) a villain Malik was. But there's parts in KoTOR2 where characters (often, but not always, Kreia) point out that Revan was keeping the galaxy in a largely undamaged state of readiness - taking the strategic targets and going for a 'decapitation strike' but leaving the manufacturing facilities largely intact so he could fight a 2nd war if he had to (and if his biggest ace in the hole- the star thingy that keeps pumping out ships, is lost or destroyed (as per Malik's takeover).
And then lastly, he taunts Canderous just before leaving known space, which Kreia interprets as him deliberately manipulating Canderous (or 'Mandalore' in KoTOR2) into building yet ANOTHER army, causing the surrounding planets to militarise as well.

If it was pre-KOTOR2, or if it involves Malik being anything but an idiot, then they're derp. But in KoTOR2 it's confirmed over and over again that Revan was trying to heavily militarise the republic with multiple alternative armies if some fail or if political gridlock occurs.

 

[CrazyLoon]

I think the Master is still one of the better villains, or at least one of the more prominent and memorable, in terms of being different from the typical "rule/destory the world" type in the gaming world. Not exactly the greatest ever, but unique enough to have a good number of people worshiping him and overrating him by a significant margin, when compared to other villains of course.

As for him being evil, ahhhh... what is evil?

 

[Infinitron]

So basically Obsidian invented the plot of ME2 years before Bioware.

Also, it's MALAK. Don't you dare insult the name of everybody's favorite new Arab-American helicopter pilot.

 

[DraQ]

I think people discussing good and evil in absolute, factual terms are just faggots.
If they're RPG fans they are most likely faggots due to D&D's tainting influence.

As for Master, he clearly believed in goals most people would agree with, except he used disagreeable methods.
He also won dumbfuck!! award several times over for not noticing that his beyootifool creations can't procreate and then, assuming dialogue win, couldn't take it and offed himself. Oh well.

A better written and realized example of Master-like villain would be Dagoth Ur in Morrowind, except there is no dialogue win there and the fight is extremely lacklustre due to mechanical and AI dumbfuckening resulting more often than not in DU leaping into lava.

Setting has no spells that detect or operate on evilness so I cannot say

mondblut would approve.

 

[attackfighter]

I think the Master is still one of the better villains, or at least one of the more prominent and memorable, in terms of being different from the typical "rule/destory the world" type in the gaming world. Not exactly the greatest ever, but unique enough to have a good number of people worshiping him and overrating him by a significant margin, when compared to other villains of course.

As for him being evil, ahhhh... what is evil?

But he was just trying to rule the world. Rule the world so he can make as many people possible into mutants and police the rest. All for the sake of ending war.

 

[hiver]

He wasnt trying to rule the world.

He was trying to eradicate remnants of old humanity and make new improved version.
Only he wasnt the brightest tool in the shed, unfortunately.

And its really a god damn shame you couldnt change sides, become a mutant and fulfill masters plan. That would have been just swell.

 

[Teepo]

Setting has no spells that detect or operate on evilness so I cannot say

Lol good one.

 

[mondblut]

He is an obstacle on player's global domination, continent-wide genocide and mass rape, so he is naturally evil.

 

[attackfighter]

He wasnt trying to rule the world.

He was trying to eradicate remnants of old humanity and make new improved version.
Only he wasnt the brightest tool in the shed, unfortunately.

And its really a god damn shame you couldnt change sides, become a mutant and fulfill masters plan. That would have been just swell.

He was trying to impose his will on everyone else, so that's basically the same thing.