NWN 2 Impressions

[Johnny the Mule]

Was there even rhyming?

 

[Captain Shrek]

@Tigranes:

i concur.

I would ask this:

1) What did NWN2 want to achieve?
2) Did NWN2 achieve what it wanted to achieve?
3) Did it do that well?

I believe that the answers are as follows:

1) It wanted to be a light-hearted adventure with slightly serious undertones at some point to maintain the grip.
2) Almost. It fails at the aspect of being challenging in the process by giving powerful loot right from start.
3) it does it reasonably well. The story is a mash of harry potter and lotr but that's ok.

I would say that the serious ideas used there were concerned with utilitarianism:

Was the sacrifice of the Guardian to become a creature of pure magic a GOOD idea? it deals with this question twice: Once in the form of the main threat and then in form of Ammon Jerro. Also, you consistently encounter certain characters that are Neutral evil in the process to emphasize that like Garrus, who would put end before the means. But yes, kid gloves only. So no over-analysis.

 

[Skittles]

@Tigranes: I fully admit that the trial scene and the stronghold were two of the best bits for me, those and the small amount of freedom allowed you during the search for the ritual statues. I just don't feel like they did much with them. The trial scene didn't really offer that many outcomes, did it? It seemed like I couldn't fail, but that may have been because I had gathered enough evidence that it was moot. I mean, there was a bloody skip button on it, it was so unimportant to the game over all, which makes it basically a mandatory mini-game. Likewise, the stronghold was a nice diversion, but even Fable III had a better fleshed out end-game use and harder decisions for the kingdom you run. I love the hell out of the idea of both bits of the game, but the execution made them seem largely 'click button to advance' rather than additional, interesting segments of the game.

Tigranes and Captain Shrek... I don't fully agree about the largely 'light hearted' aim of the game. Things like freeing the imps in the Blacklake District lent themselves to that general tone and I actually consider that the most entertaining side quest of the game, for the two minutes it lasted. But the underdeveloped political intrigue? The seduction and wholesale murder of children and teenagers? The descriptions of people being disappeared, burning to death over one hundred days? The repeated mass murders--that was a fucking theme if I ever saw one? The shallow meditation on the oblivion of the grave?

We can probably dither about whether those meant they weren't going for a light tone with serious undertones or a serious game with light moments and so on, but I didn't enjoy the story and feel partly because I feel like they threw all this crap into the game without trying to keep consistent logic and tone (consistent, not uniform) and they didn't execute those parts well. I don't need a grim, pretentious game, just one that doesn't make me roll my eyes at it--at least not when I'm not supposed to.


Oh, and I remember another bit that I liked: lighting that ponce on fire after failing terribly at the music mini-game.

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

NWN2 is basically the Disney's Channel version of a classic grand D&D CRPG story. It really is about playing a typical rags to riches, peasant boy to hero story from start to finish throughout a long ('epic') campaign, one that avoids facepalmy plot loopholes for the most part, but one that also makes no secret about what it is. In addition, it works to keep the general tone of the campaign pretty light, of an "Hey I'm on an Adventure" type - thus Khelgar as a cheerful guffawing dwarf whose violent streak is of the Tom and Jerry style, Neeshka with the whole "hey actually we're all good buddies and I'm just being snarky" deal, etc. Obviously it matches with NWN/2's rather generic D&D visual style, and of course the whole campaign is designed that way too.

Funnily enough, I enjoyed the campaign when it came out, I think because I was really hungry for exactly a typical D&D campaign and bloody sick of this Star Wars bullshit. If you don't take it seriously (because there's nothing in there worth taking seriously), and treat it as a pretty well made D&D campaign, it's worth your time. The only major dealbreakers are (1) if you're sick of such typical campaigns at the moment, (2) if you really can't stand the engine, (3) if you have a low tolerance for that kind of cheerful writing. (I don't think it's as bad as Disney or hi-teen, though... more like, can you stand the writing on your latest Hollywood blockbuster targeted at a 13-28 audience? Because it's a bit better than that, IMO.) But the trial in particular is really good - it's a moment in RPG history since we haven't seen anything like that in the last 10 years, and it's a very good CRPG experience. The stronghold stuff isn't bad either, and certainly, in execution, different from your average CRPG these days.

Oh, and if someone wants to argue about 'original' / 'generic', etc., the point isn't really whether something's been 'done before', it's more about how creative it is, and what kind of impact it has upon delivery. Shandra/Ammon Jerro was arguably the most serious and potentially emotive part of the entire campaign, and actually, Shandra had pretty good writing that allowed her to be more than a terrible "Oh I'm a farmer and I just want a simple life" walking cliche. But the fact that you have to freaking take Shandra for half of Chapter 2 or whatever really makes you hate her - I don't know about anyone else, but I was actually so glad to see her die so I wouldn't have to have her taking up arse-space in the party all the time. Ammon Jerro is pretty interesting, but inevitably fits in with the generally light mood, IMO, and it's hard for me to take his 'I gotta do what I gotta do' schtick too seriously what with Sand and Khelgar and everyone quipping around him. Strictly speaking NWN2 isn't entirely unoriginal or generic, but it has a lot of generic elements, and especially a very generic style and tone that dominates the campaign and especially appears to dictate the writing for all characters except Shandra and Ammon Jerro.

All true, though personally I think Ammon Jerro serves as something of a transition in the whole growing up aspect of the game, with our erstwhile young heroes getting into something that is actually deadly serious with the Guardian instead of their older, more "fun" adventures, and sets things up for the tone of Mask of the Betrayer. I myself kinda like the whole ye olde fun DnD style the game goes for with the story and NPCs. I also still say that the Neeshka romance is one of the best, because it was not fully implemented which prevented it from being somewhat detached from the main plot. Having all the small stuff left in made it much better than it'd have been if finished.

Also, I think it should be pointed out that the Battle of Crossroad Keep does a far better job in making it seem like a huge battle is taking place, especially compared to how awkward the attempt in, for example, Oblivion was. The simple use of a good background image of torchlights all the way to the horizon, arrow volleys and catapult strikes did wonders even when the game doesn't render several hundred skeletons and vampires on-screen.

 

[Tigranes]

I genuinely think it's a stylistic preference - we all loved MOTB (obviously this will summon forth the one guy that didn't), and that was a much more sombre experience. Yet you could easily look at whatshername (the cleric with white hair) and say all that emo is crinkin' your style. I also think in general, Obsidian has writers that does that much better - they can write funny stuff, but wry / dark humour in the context of such a world. They are good at, and need, that twisted underbelly or grey skies or however you put it. That's one of the things I attribute to DS3's story being pretty disappointing overall - it was, like NWN2, a straight pitch fantasy bulldozer, even if it had some interesting (underdeveloped) inflections with the fire ladies and automata. It will be interesting to see whether that will change with the South Park RPG, especially since 'Obsidian' isn't one company, they have a pretty significant turnover and have some younger devs.

I agree that Ammon Jerro was meant to serve as the tradition where things get serious, and Sandra's death was obviously meant to be the turning point. As Skittles says, I don't think we can explain away NWN2's obvious writing flaws as style, and I don't meant to do that. I think the trial and the Keep were handled well, but the Luskan intrigue could have been much more interesting in a more serious campaign, and as I say, the pretty good writing they did with AJ/Sandra was counteracted by the terrible decision of forcing Sandra on you. I love Obsidian to bits, but that was the minor design decision (as opposed to major feature decision) that's pissed me off more than anything in the last few years.

In fact, returning to Crossroads Keep for a moment, I think it's hard to make it any better than the way it was, though your decisions in how you fortify the keep could have had a greater impact. Look at Skyrim's faction quests and storming forts are a fucking joke, I thought I was playing DA2 with all the critters popping out of nowhere. TW2 wasn't much better either, except for the art & atmosphere. Gameplay-wise I thought Crossroads Keep was a good mix of making decisions, gathering ingredients, doing quests, and seeing things really develop.

 

[Nathair]

Interesting going back to play some more modules recently after a fair break - SoZ has seemingly borne some real fruit. First up there's a rather accurate IWD remake (up to and inc Wormstooth so far so they might very well finish.). Secondly there's Legacy of white plume mountain which really is terribly good (if a little buggy). One main dungeon and a whole bunch of side dungeons on a SoZ style map. But the side dungeons are all 'real', well designed, varied dungeons with proper bosses etc. Maybe as good in its own way as MoTB, if very different. (and long, level 7-21 for me.).

And then there was one module which played rather like a parody of a bioware module

 

[sah]

SoZ brings some really cool stuff to the table. I love how the overland map makes use of multiple skills (the ones that are either underrated or useless in combat). I also liked the party conversation system.

 

[Semper]

yeah, soz is a gem. brings back dungeon crawling memories from iwd even though the dungeons were too tiny. the new conversation system, limited resting, party creation, overland map and skill usage were fun. on top nx2 was heaven for the modding community. just ignore the vanilla campaign with all its cutted content - play motb for the great story and soz for the "classical" d&d dungeon romping.

 

[Nathair]

Come to think of it they've even backported the official campaign to work in a sort of SoZ style. That would solve some of the problems, although I guess the encounter design still a major issue. (MoTB too in fact but its hard to say why you'd want that.).

The death system is so much better too.