A Thought on PST

[DorrieB]

A bit irrelevant but anyway... I find that I'm really not interested in replaying Torment primarily because of the ending. The knowledge that the Nameless One would be better off not looking for his mortality is a bit depressing.

Couldn't let this one slide. You are foolish indeed, if you truly believe that.

 

[WouldBeCreator]

I've got to say, I'm a little sympathetic to that position. TNO just before the merge seems to be him at his most human, balanced, decent. To be sure, taking the plunge to pay off his sins is probably the *right* thing to do -- that's part of what makes the endgame TNO so compelling -- but it's hard not to feel that TNO is martyring himself without hope of resurrection. That he goes to fight in the Blood War -- which the game depicts as endless, mindless, senseless combat of the most dehumanizing sort -- suggests that the self-understanding that he's gained over the course of the game is going to be ground out of him.

Moreover, although TNO does make a positive difference in the lives of others, one sort of feels like at the endgame, he's now got the power to maybe free his companions from their torment. (Maybe, maybe not. The torment is internal to them, but intimately tied into TNO's problems.) But his final speech to them doesn't save them. Maybe the vision of his self-sacrifice does. Maybe. But it certainly never struck me that way.

There's a terribly fatality to replaying PS:T. No matter what, you know that you're leading TNO toward a horrible end. It doesn't matter if you play selfishly or kindly, orderly or chaoticly. It's all gonna be the same. And I really do think that's an impediment to replaying it.

Not an insuperable one, but it's still there.

 

[Rat Keeng]

Maybe it isn't the "Greatest RPG Ever".

Oh not even close, but come on, the story isn't the only thing it has going for it. Doesn't meaningful dialogue count for anything anymore? It lets you shape your character, but without revealing everything with a directly affected stat like karma, reputation, alignment, light/dark side points or whatever, it encourages you to push the role-playing part much further than usual, or at least, it did for me.

However, the combat in PS:T, particularly towards the end when it gets very heavy, is so unbearable, that I've only ever completed the game once without cheating, every other time I've cheated one way or another, in order to just slaughter my way past the horribly boring fighting parts, that would otherwise discourage me from continuing playing.

No matter what, you know that you're leading TNO toward a horrible end.

Let me make sure I understand this correctly... Are you saying, that the fact you can't get a happy ending, is impeding your desire to replay PS:T? I'm probably not reading it right or some such, but for me it comes across as one of the dumbest things I've ever read.

 

[Tris McCall]

A bit irrelevant but anyway... I find that I'm really not interested in replaying Torment primarily because of the ending. The knowledge that the Nameless One would be better off not looking for his mortality is a bit depressing.

Couldn't let this one slide. You are foolish indeed, if you truly believe that.

DorrieB, your excellent writing on PS:T has me reloading the game and giving it another runthrough, but I think Kairal and others have a point here. Spending an eternity in the Blood War is supposed to be the worst fate possible. I really dig your argument that there's something triumphant about the Nameless One's decision to take command of his own destiny and throw himself into the pit, but still. It's a pretty horrifying ending.

Does that mean the Nameless One would be better off not looking for his mortality? Definitely that wouldn't be a good thing for the planes, or for his companions. But better for him? Even if eternity in the Blood War isn't *torment* the way you've defined it (existential and insoluble internal conflictedness), it sure is *torture*. I don't know... If you care about the character at all, it's a pretty hard thing to throw him into the abyss all over again.

Ah, hell, I'm going to do it.

 

[Tris McCall]

Let me make sure I understand this correctly... Are you saying, that the fact you can't get a happy ending, is impeding your desire to replay PS:T? I'm probably not reading it right or some such, but for me it comes across as one of the dumbest things I've ever read.

It's that there's no alternative other than consigning The Nameless One to the Blood War or talking himself out of existence altogether. The writers do so much to make you care about the character(s), and then break your heart at the end; it's not quite so easy to condemn the Nameless One all over again.

 

[WouldBeCreator]

Let me make sure I understand this correctly... Are you saying, that the fact you can't get a happy ending, is impeding your desire to replay PS:T? I'm probably not reading it right or some such, but for me it comes across as one of the dumbest things I've ever read.

You're right, I'm an idiot. Damn, and here I thought my facade of fancy-talk and mass posting had people fooled.

Frankly, the answer is yes. A game is not a book. Let me repeat that, because sometimes I think PS:T fans (of whom I consider myself one) forget it. When I pick up a book, I have no control over the protagonist. My relationship to him, and to the book, is different from my relationship to the protagonist of a game. When I play a game, the fate of the protagonist is, from the very beginning, in my hands. Will TNO suffer countless deaths en route to the Fortress? Will he be a jerk or a gentleman? Will he fight or will he talk? Whom will he befriend and what good will he do for the planes?

Because from the beginning I am not merely an *observer* but a *controller* of TNO's fate, I expect to be rewarded for my efforts. One of those rewards is candy (cutscenes, story, big numbers after my stats, whatever). But the ultimate reward has to be the sense of agency and the sense that my efforts were meaningful. One of my oldest fond game memories is the first time I beat Contra. The game rather cheesily shows the island lair of Red Falcon explode, tells you you've saved the universe, and concludes, "Consider yourself a hero." If my nine lives expired before I spreadfired that damn heart to bursting, Red Falcon would've destroyed the Earth, the universe, etc., and my poor marine would've been no more than a moldering corpse in a jungle on a ruined world.

PS:T, on the other hand, presents three endings: true death (which is as good as winning as far as the Planes are concerned), winning, and -- the only "bad" ending -- killing off the people who can help you and thus condemning yourself to wander aimlessly.

The whole time I'm playing the game, I'm slouching toward annihilation. But it's not just that. I can stand a game where the hero dies at the end -- although I wonder whether it's really the appropriate way to end a game. It's that your death is so utterly meaningless. And your life is so utterly meaningless.

Maybe I'm missing something about how the planes work. Certainly the game didn't make it clear, though, if I did. But this is how I see it. My TNO the first time through was lawful good. A great man who did acts of kindness. At the story's close, he was enormously powerful and capable of doing wonderful things for Sigil. But he doesn't have that option. He *must* embrace oblivion, one way or another.

Okay, fine. But what makes it so outrageous is that the way in which he embraces oblivion -- joining the Blood War -- trivializes all the good he did throughout the game. Because you realize that helping a tree grow, when there's a planes-spanning war destroying all nature on its battlegrounds, is meaningless. Saving one life when millions are dying miserably constantly is irrelevant. The story not only places TNO in the only place where his newfound power is worthless -- since the Blood War is unwinnable and unchangeable -- but also in a setting that reveals how small and irrelevant your story was. TNO is triviliazed not just going forward, but also going backward.

Moreover, as much as the writers tried to make TNO's sacrifice out as meaningful for his companions, I'm somewhat torn. FFG is left as a new Deionarra, as best I can tell. I see no closure for Annah or for Morte. I mean, the guys's still just a fuckin' mimir with some fireteeth stuck in his mouth.

The difference between reading a book that comes to a sad ending is that you never had any obligation to make it right for the characters. But in a game, you have such an obligation, born of your control over them. But PS:T makes it inevitable that you fail in that obligation. So next time you play, what's your goal? To engage in more trivialities en route to oblivion?

It doesn't mean I can't still enjoy the story when I replay it, but it does make things harder.

 

[Tris McCall]

Okay, fine. But what makes it so outrageous is that the way in which he embraces oblivion -- joining the Blood War -- trivializes all the good he did throughout the game. Because you realize that helping a tree grow, when there's a planes-spanning war destroying all nature on its battlegrounds, is meaningless. Saving one life when millions are dying miserably constantly is irrelevant. The story not only places TNO in the only place where his newfound power is worthless -- since the Blood War is unwinnable and unchangeable -- but also in a setting that reveals how small and irrelevant your story was. TNO is triviliazed not just going forward, but also going backward.

Oh, but he doesn't *join* the Blood War. He's damned to the Blood War because of all the evil acts he did in past incarnations. The Nameless One's good acts *did* have consequences -- for his companions, and for the planes. They just couldn't possibly outweigh the horrible things he did. So his soul is pulled into the Lower Planes once he acquiesces to final judgement.

Accepting that punishment isn't really a choice. By finally dying, his soul goes to the plane to which it's been assigned.

Moreover, as much as the writers tried to make TNO's sacrifice out as meaningful for his companions, I'm somewhat torn. FFG is left as a new Deionarra, as best I can tell.

Grace won't be waiting in death's halls for anybody -- she's not the type. She's the one who grasps the predicament best, anyway. Don't worry about Fall-From-Grace; she'll be okay. Heartbroken, sure, but weren't you?

 

[Rat Keeng]

Hm, I may have to admit it's mainly down to my obsession with bad endings, as I feel much more desire to run TNO through the horrors that is PS:T, than running the descendant of Nerevar through Morrowind to be super savior number one, or taking the Bhaalspawn through the Underdark to save a bunch of elves. As far as forced endings go, I'm glad some games decide not to go the "fantasy hero" route and pull those happy feel-good conclusions on me.

So next time you play, what's your goal?

Heh, I ask myself that whenever I think about playing something like Morrowind again, I don't even have oblivion to look forward to there. Instead of my story being small, irrelevant and trivialized, it's huge, epic and breathtaking, and I honestly much prefer less clichéd stories, like ones that don't push the heroic world-saving elements too much.

Besides, the ending in PS:T is approx. 15 minutes, everything before that reacts pretty strongly to your characters actions, even if it is in a "mildly" linear fashion.

 

[bryce777]

Ok, here is my take on things.

Basically, TNO cheated his fate. He did so in such a way as to have dire consequences to others (the people who die to fuel his rebirth) and to himself.

His mortality is basically a part of him. He is broken without it, and becoming less and less human, and more and more fragmented. Really, it is not a good fate for him.

I think there is more to it than simply martyring himself, and also he is not simply restoring himself to die. Yes, he goes back to fight in the blood war, but now he is once more whole, and complete. And powerful.

He has the opportunity to transcend his fate eventually, perhaps. The sparkle in the eye at the end seems to me to be more than weary resignation to a sissypheon fate...if anyone has the ability to survive and eventually master his fate, it's the nameless one.

 

[Tris McCall]

He has the opportunity to transcend his fate eventually, perhaps.
I think there is more to it than simply martyring The sparkle in the eye at the end seems to me to be more than weary resignation to a sissypheon fate...if anyone has the ability to survive and eventually master his fate, it's the nameless one.

I found myself hoping the same thing. Maybe it's a rationalization on behalf of a character I really liked, but I tried to convince myself that he could hang on to his humanity after eons of bashing demons' skulls in the Blood War, and figure out how to escape his damnation. Then again, Grace says "time is not your enemy, forever is", and I have to believe she knows what she's talking about, being a tanar'ri and all.

 

[bryce777]

Also, one thing I am certain of is he was not the lawful good guy when he went to ravel. Back then, he was full of pride and thought he could make a good living in the blood war. The good came later, when he tried to redeem himself, and he had lots of regrets.

 

[WouldBeCreator]

When the incarnation in the Bronze Sphere says he's the first, did he mean he was the original guy who went to Ravel or that he was the first of the reborn incarnations? If the former, I think it's hard to consider him such a bad guy. Certainly no saint and certainly afflicted with the sin of pride, but hardly worthy of an eternity of torment.

 

[bryce777]

When the incarnation in the Bronze Sphere says he's the first, did he mean he was the original guy who went to Ravel or that he was the first of the reborn incarnations? If the former, I think it's hard to consider him such a bad guy. Certainly no saint and certainly afflicted with the sin of pride, but hardly worthy of an eternity of torment.

People change, though; I think he came to regret sacrificing his men etc. etc. etc.

In short I think they are the same one....

 

[aweigh]

PS:T's story is almost as good as Final Fantasy 7's.

 

[WouldBeCreator]

People change, though; I think he came to regret sacrificing his men etc. etc. etc.

In short I think they are the same one....

Is the incarnation in the Sphere capable of changing? I thought it was basically a recording. Sentient and aware but static.

Checked the game script. Here's what I dug up:

"It held the last experiences of the *first* of us. When we were one man, and not a string of incarnations."

So pre-Ravel.

But now that I reread, I see you didn't pull him out of the sphere. Here's what he says, though:

"I found that changing my nature was not enough. I needed more time, and I needed more life. So I came to the greatest of the Gray Sisters and asked her for a boon - to try and help me live long enough to rectify all the damage I had done. To make me immortal."

Maybe it's just me, but a person who wants to devote eternity to writing his sins ain't so bad. (Although I wonder if this was a reference to The Picture of Dorian Grey?) Anyone who looks at his wrongdoing, is filled with regret, and tries to write the wrong deserves something better than fighting monsters in an endless war. Especially given that he sought Ravel out from a position of some power, not a position of weakness, though perhaps he was desperate to cheat his fate.

My $.02.

 

[bryce777]

People change, though; I think he came to regret sacrificing his men etc. etc. etc.

In short I think they are the same one....

Is the incarnation in the Sphere capable of changing? I thought it was basically a recording. Sentient and aware but static.

Checked the game script. Here's what I dug up:

"It held the last experiences of the *first* of us. When we were one man, and not a string of incarnations."

So pre-Ravel.

But now that I reread, I see you didn't pull him out of the sphere. Here's what he says, though:

"I found that changing my nature was not enough. I needed more time, and I needed more life. So I came to the greatest of the Gray Sisters and asked her for a boon - to try and help me live long enough to rectify all the damage I had done. To make me immortal."

Maybe it's just me, but a person who wants to devote eternity to writing his sins ain't so bad. (Although I wonder if this was a reference to The Picture of Dorian Grey?) Anyone who looks at his wrongdoing, is filled with regret, and tries to write the wrong deserves something better than fighting monsters in an endless war. Especially given that he sought Ravel out from a position of some power, not a position of weakness, though perhaps he was desperate to cheat his fate.

My $.02.

The whole point is that he regrets what he has DONE. Yes, he is the original, and so is the guy who sacrificed his troop to get out of the war.

He did evil, then he regretted it. That is sort of the whole point.

I am not sure what you are getting at.

I don't think he is necessarily going to be punished eternally, but his attempt at a solution did not work as he planned....

 

[WouldBeCreator]

I suppose my point is that my views on the afterlife don't involve unforgiveable sins. If the Blood War is to serve as some sort of purgatory for TNO, it seems wholly unnecessary, since TNO has been both punished and rehabilitated. If it's just a straight up hell for him, then I just find that the good in him -- as I played him and read his character -- outweighed the bad.

 

[bryce777]

I suppose my point is that my views on the afterlife don't involve unforgiveable sins. If the Blood War is to serve as some sort of purgatory for TNO, it seems wholly unnecessary, since TNO has been both punished and rehabilitated. If it's just a straight up hell for him, then I just find that the good in him -- as I played him and read his character -- outweighed the bad.

Well, your beliefs don't count for much in the game.

Most importantly, the whole point I have been trying to make is I do not really believe that he is eternally doomed as such. He is just back to where he originally was. Yes, he is in the blood war FOR NOW. But he is mortal again...the whole point of the fucking game!

So, now he perhaps has the opportunity to make amends, and when he dies will not be doomed to life as a nubbia or whatever the fuck those evil blobbies are.

I think this was kind of the premise of the whole game. The game is not as spelled out as many games, but I really think you need to replay it and think things through a little better as you go because I think you have sort of a distorted perspective on the whole thing.

The first time I played it, I was sort of confused, but I was playing a dimbulb fighter and missed out on about 85% of the dialog.

 

[aboyd]

One of my oldest fond game memories is the first time I beat Contra. The game rather cheesily shows the island lair of Red Falcon explode, tells you you've saved the universe, and concludes, "Consider yourself a hero."

The whole time I'm playing the game, I'm slouching toward annihilation. But it's not just that. I can stand a game where the hero dies at the end -- although I wonder whether it's really the appropriate way to end a game. It's that your death is so utterly meaningless. And your life is so utterly meaningless.

Meaningless? This game isn't about TNO saving the world, it's about TNO rehabilitating himself. It's about the transformation that deep regret can bring. I think it's very effective on that level. It may be a case of "dying well" -- which is tragic, but tragedy is not meaningless, it's what occurs when something positive is lost. The very fact that TNO can be "something positive" (that people can find his death (or damnation) to be regrettable) shows redemption is possible. I find that very compelling.

To put it into Contra-speak, the game concludes with "consider yourself redeemed."

Moreover, as much as the writers tried to make TNO's sacrifice out as meaningful for his companions, I'm somewhat torn. FFG is left as a new Deionarra, as best I can tell. I see no closure for Annah or for Morte. I mean, the guys's still just a fuckin' mimir with some fireteeth stuck in his mouth.

Yes, but isn't he a free Mimir now? Wasn't he bound to TNO, because of his huge deceptions, IIRC? Dakkon was in a similar situation, although due to TNO's deceptions. As TNO leaves, I always assumed their chains were undone. And I found that incredibly satisfying.

FFG could be a new Deionarra, assuming you pledged your love to her with the sole intent of misleading her so that you could use her and then discard her. I never did that. I never pledged love for her at all. I did however pledge love to Annah a few times, and to Deionarra a few times too. I found that honoring Deionarra makes for a satisfying end, knowing that she might be at peace in death. I found that Annah's ending was brutally sad for me. IIRC, she vows to go to the battlefield and find TNO, or something like that. Whatever it was that she said & did, I remember thinking at the time that she would likely die.

The difference between reading a book that comes to a sad ending is that you never had any obligation to make it right for the characters. But in a game, you have such an obligation, born of your control over them. But PS:T makes it inevitable that you fail in that obligation.

Interesting. I never felt that I failed. In fact, I felt that the heartbreaking sacrifice of TNO -- giving up immortality, freeing his companions, accepting punishment for his egregiously evil actions -- was the ultimate act that saved him. The very act of "failure" as you call it was the same act that made me feel triumph, however bittersweet. And by triumph I don't mean, "YOU SAVED THE WORLD," but true transformation of TNO's heart & character.

U2 has a song that contains the line, "I can't change the world, but I can change the world in me." I think PST is that line, played out in front of the gamer.

-T

 

[kris]

I disagree. The strength of PST is having the character predefined and having it on a rail. You can't have a story that layered, nuanced, and woven together and still give the player meaningful freedom.

I don't like predefined characters, but I like good coherent stories. Only way to solve that is to not have the story revolve around the character I play. Either have it revolve around a NPC or around something in the world. the problem then of course is that they have to work harder to make it enganging, but in roleplaying terms it is better since the possibilities of defining your character is more. You are of course correct in saying that the most easy way to make a great, coherent and enganging story is by having the player character defined...

Made me think of something. If I remember correctly I read back in the day of some "people" that made a book or short story where they custombuilt yourself in. Basically, you proved info about yourself and you are written in a story. The point here is, that no matter how much some of you may sneer against that, reading about the story yourself is in is more enganging than many other things. Predefined character comes second... third we would have a well done NPC by your side... last we would have "save village with faceless people from bandits"

 

[Elwro]

I never felt that I failed. In fact, I felt that the heartbreaking sacrifice of TNO -- giving up immortality, freeing his companions, accepting punishment for his egregiously evil actions -- was the ultimate act that saved him. The very act of "failure" as you call it was the same act that made me feel triumph, however bittersweet. And by triumph I don't mean, "YOU SAVED THE WORLD," but true transformation of TNO's heart & character.

I always felt the same about the ending. It gave me a sense of accomplishment and was a great finale to a good story.

 

[Jora]

The Nameless One nodding to his club in the end is a powerful scene. At that moment it became very clear what kind of story the game was trying to tell. The satisfaction I feel every time I watch it is hard to describe.

 

[WouldBeCreator]

The trouble is, however you play the game you come to the same end. Any attempt to spin that end as redemption is undermined, methinks, by the fact that you get there as chaotic evil, too.

 

[bryce777]

The trouble is, however you play the game you come to the same end. Any attempt to spin that end as redemption is undermined, methinks, by the fact that you get there as chaotic evil, too.

Well, as I said I don't think it's about redemption so much as others seem to feel.

 

[gromit]

On the original topic: I think Sith Lords is exactly the same way.