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Game News Wasteland 2 to use Unity

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Davaris

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Sorry you are having problems there Kaese.

What you have described is one of the downsides, of being a customer of a larger company. They do things, when it suits their bottom line. They move slowly and ponderously like an elephant, because there are lots of rules, their employees and bosses must follow.

Small companies on the other hand, are agile and if the people that own them are any good, they fix problems immediately.

Lucky for the Wasteland 2 crew, they have access to the source, so they can fix these issues as they arise, but for lesser skilled people, with script only access, they are at the mercy of the company system.
 
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Davaris

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On the other hand, calling Koyima a seller and marketing guy is pure speculation and ad hominem. Looking around the Unity's forum, various webpages and reading his posts here, certainly don't give me that impression.



This shows that so many games have been made with said engine, so it has enough production use to be considered a safe choice.
This is unbiased, the number of titles is not questioned, it's simply fact. When faced with this situation 99% of people will chose the safe choice.
Unless they are related to the C4 team or have some other bias.

Apply the same standard to your fellow Greek.
 

Alex_Steel

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Apply the same standard to your fellow Greek.


When he stops attacking a one man company like C4, I'll lay off him. You may notice, I have not attacked the Unity engine at all, just their marketing methods.
Of course he is biased, he uses Unity and it probably is his favourite engine. I'm using Firefox and I can argue why it is a good choice. Does this mean I work for Mozilla?
But this is besides the point. He is talking about safe choice.
We have two engines. Engine A has these benefits and Engine B has those benefits. Engine A has lots of material proving it works while Engine B not so much. Engine A has a big team working on it while Engine B doesn't. Considering you have only 18 months to work, which is the safest choice?

It would be better if you attacked Unity and not Koyima. Find some facts about the engine and make a worthy argument. Find some proof he is an employee, his name is public. Speculating about Koyima being an employee is not a valid argument. It's ad hominem. Simple as that.
 
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Davaris

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But this is besides the point. He is talking about safe choice.
We have two engines. Engine A has these benefits and Engine B has those benefits. Engine A has lots of material proving it works while Engine B not so much. Engine A has a big team working on it while Engine B doesn't. Considering you have only 18 months to work, which is the safest choice?

Kaese's post and link above, shot koyima's and now your safety argument, down in flames.

I have not considered Wasteland 2 part of this argument for a while, since they have the source code and can fix whatever they need to.

This discussion has moved on to the suitability of Unity in general. Koyima's arguments in favor of Unity and attacks on C4, are based on money and size, which as I've demonstrated, are highly exaggerated.

Even so, size does not guarantee quality or service. Everyone who has endured the hell of deli-support knows it and the link above, demonstrates it.
 

tiagocc0

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Ippokratis - Location Athens, Greece - Posts 550 - Posted: 12:56 AM 4 Weeks Ago
Hi,
IMHO the number draw calls is not a good indicator of performance.
Perhaps you should rely on measuring mean frame time on target platform instead.
Also, make sure you follow the upgrade guide.
I try to accomodate to the new version as well, I think it is one of the tradeoffs people should be prepared for.
-Ippokratis

Hahah, the draw calls isn't three times higher? Should we just measure it differently then?
Now upgrades come with tradeoffs!

EDIT: Thanks Kaese for the link.
 

Alex_Steel

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No it's not. That's not how ad hominem works. If I said he's a lecherous Jacobite and therefore no one should listen that's ad hominem.
It "is an attempt to negate the truth of a claim by pointing out a negative characteristic or belief of the person supporting it." And it's even worse since it is unfounded, based on suspicion. Bring proof that he is an employee of Unity. I might as well say you are a C4 employee, you support it too much. Right?

If he's a Unity employee or has some relationship beyond mere Unity user he IS discredited. Just as our friend Miles Cheong was discredited on reddit.
'If' does not make a valid argument.

It's perfectly valid to point out such a suspicion.
Yes, it is valid to point it out. But it is not enough to discredit him.
I mean Jesus Christ, is anyone on the planet more qualified to spot a fucking alt than I am? I don't think anyone has the brass to call that a false appeal to authority.
:roll:

Kaese's post and link above, shot koyima's and now your safety argument, down in flames.
The safety argument is not based on some stupid idea that there are no bugs. It's multiplatform software, of course there are bugs. It is based on the idea that Unity has more resources to support a company like InXile and more games to show as proof of its capabilities. Thus, considering InXile has only 18 months, it is a safer bet.

Also, Kaese is a corporate spy with 1 post trying to slander Unity, I can identify them from a distance! Take my word for it. :smug:
 
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Davaris

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Also, Kaese is a corporate spy with 1 post trying to slander Unity, I can identify them from a distance! Take my word for it. :smug:

But the link he provided is not.

Alex, you going to behave like a pre-schooler? Please let me know now.
 

Kaese

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Also, Kaese is a corporate spy with 1 post trying to slander Unity, I can identify them from a distance! Take my word for it. :smug:
Nope.
But I thought it would be nice, when this thread has a counterpart to Koyima who registered here only to praise/defend Unity.

And btw. He is not an employee of Unity Tech. Just one of Unity's many fanboys. I know the Unity community quite well.

I also don't understand Fargo's decision. Maybe he got the source for free. I mean Wasteland2 with all it's buzz would be great marketing for Unity.
And apparently, one Unity user is close to Fargo and convinced him to use that crap. Click Click here (It is also the thread where our friend Koyima brag about this thread here)

Unity is just a big hype. Nothing more. And it makes one thing pretty clear. If you have the money and the marketing you rule the market. No matter how shitty your product is.
 

Nattvardsvin

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Found the origin of Koyima's entrance into this thread. Seems he is a Unity fanboi defending Unity's honor.

http://forum.unity3d.com/threads/135827-Brian-Fargo-Wasteland-2-using-Unity

2jahwtu.png
 

DarkUnderlord

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I want to butt in here because there are a few arguments I don't think are really all that valid...

Ok so let's say that a comparison has been done and C4 is strong in some respects and Unity is strong in others. It is a tie, we have to chose C4 or Unity:

In this department the only valid metric is: titles completed.
The fact Fargo got access to Unity's source code should tell you everything you need to know about that.

Normally, a company builds its own game engine. In other words, zero titles have used it before.

That's how it has been since the dawn of computing. You didn't buy "Turn-Based Isometric Combat Engine" off the shelf and plugin your X-Com art assets. id Software didn't just purchase the rights to "3D FPS Engine" and load their Nazi graphics in. No, normally you coded the entire thing from the ground up yourself. There's a reason for that. Because NO game engine will do EVERYTHING you want or need it to do. It just doesn't happen.

If you want an analogy, I run into the same problem with coding the Codex. Sure, I could whack up a WordPress installation instead of coding shit myself (Like how we use someone elses forum software). But nothing does what I want it to. Or it has a lot of extra bloat. Or I need to spend 6 months learning how the fuck it works when I could have built an easier interface myself in half a day (seriously, has anyone even looked at Joomla? WTF are 90% of those options for anyway?).

ANY pre-built engine (be that Unity or anything else) = Bloat = Slower Load Times = Difficulty = Learning Time. Because the damn thing needs to cater for Bob - who wants to make an awesome flight simulator, and George - who's busy making 2D fissiks based games. So the Engine needs to handle both. If it can't, than it means there's less shit in the engine and you run into problems for something someone is trying to do...

... hence source code access.

I could probably guarantee that Wasteland 2's "Unity" Engine, by the time InXile are done with it, probably won't look much like Unity anymore. In much the same way as Bethesda fucked with GameBryo. In fact if they didn't get source code access, I'd have bet Fargo would've looked at something else. Even perhaps buying something off of his Obsidian mates.

Because once you have source code access, the game engine doesn't matter so much anymore. It's all just computer code in the end and if it doesn't do what you want, well, you just re-write the fucking thing.

Troike didn't build Arcanum or TOEE with an off-the-shelf engine. They built it from the ground-up. For the most part, it worked. And their development of Bloodlines (if my memory serves) included getting Valve to add shit in because Source couldn't handle whatever it was they were trying to do.

So "titles completed" as a metric is complete bs. I think inXile would've looked far deeper and harder at the engine than just that. Because it doesn't matter how many titles have been completed, if the large majority of them are shitty browser-based games with laggy controls. There have been barely any games with the CryEngine for example - and yet do you think any of those developers went "Oh, we should use that shity browser-based engine instead because, look, more shitty titles!!".

The metric is: Will the engine do what we want? And if not, will we be able to add that functionality in easily? With source code access, both of those questions are solved.

Now to this issue of support. "Oh, lots of people use Unity - therefore inXile will have lots of support!". Yeah, I can totally see a post from Fargo now appearing on the Unity Community Forums. "Hey, we're trying to make a AAA title and this shit here don't work... Someone help?". inXile are professional game developers. IE: We're not talking about Bob in his shed getting help from Dave the retiree next door. We're talking about the qualified Engineer at the factory talking directly to the other qualified Engineer at the manufacturer.

I don't doubt for a second that Fargo has the full support of the entire fucking Unity development team because Unity fucking need this to be a rip-roaring success if they intend to go mainstream. They would've gotten that sort of support from ANY engine because they NEED sirius bizness people to use their products. And if sirius bizness people need help, you help them if you want to keep your company alive. You don't use Dave's help - because while he might have good intentions, Dave only works on his project on weekends...

... and do you really think they're going to wait around for the days to idle by while they *hope* someone out there has an answer? No, chances are they'll hire someone and solve it themselves (with their source code access). And then Unity will port that feature into their main code stream.

Any game engine is going to have problems. Unity will be no different. In the end, like all the other games, I doubt we'll even notice what engine it was built on. Except for the unskippable intro movie logo that will no doubt come up when the game starts. The fact they're using a pre-existing engine just means they'll get through the prototype stage a lot faster and hopefully, be able to focus more on the content. Rather than waiting for the whole engine to be written by a dedicated team (in fact, if they're smart, they'll push any work that needs to be done on the engine onto the Unity developers themselves as part of the fee they paid).
 
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Found the origin of Koyima's entrance into this thread. Seems he is a Unity fanboi defending Unity's honor.

http://forum.unity3d.com/threads/135827-Brian-Fargo-Wasteland-2-using-Unity


c-Row on Unity3D forums said:
Please, for the love of whatever being you thing watches over this place, stay away from the RPGCodex forums. They make 4chan look like a friendly bunch of decent gentlemen wearing hats and monocles.

It's feels so good to be appreciated!
 

koyima

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So after everything has been said and shot down with a 12gauge, we resort to "character assasination".

I laugh at you.

http://www.koyima.com
http://www.koyima.com/blog
http://www.darkopolis.com

It would be easier for you to use Google - as I have stated before - but you guys need to be held by the hand. Doesn't scale to your level my ass.

For the last time:

- Unity popularity: reason for many sub-par titles out there - with 1 million people creating games a lot of crap will come up.
- Unity amount of Titles Released: Portfolio, proof it works - safer bet. From FPS to MMO, from RPG to Puzzles. 2D,2.5D,3D.
- Unity team and funding: they weren't waiting for Fargo to drop the cash - also safer bet.


Are you not entertained?

Also:
DarkUnderlord:"Normally, a company builds its own game engine. In other words, zero titles have used it before."

Really? You consider it normal behaviour? Which year are you stuck in again? Ah, ok. Cos I thought everyone was crying because their games all looked like Unreal because everyone was using Unreal lately...
 

crojipjip

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So after everything has been said and shot down with a 12gauge, we resort to "character assasination".

I laugh at you.

http://www.koyima.com
http://www.koyima.com/blog
http://www.darkopolis.com

It would be easier for you to use Google - as I have stated before - but you guys need to be held by the hand. Doesn't scale to your level my ass.

For the last time:

- Unity popularity: reason for many sub-par titles out there - with 1 million people creating games a lot of crap will come up.
- Unity amount of Titles Released: Portfolio, proof it works - safer bet. From FPS to MMO, from RPG to Puzzles. 2D,2.5D,3D.
- Unity team and funding: they weren't waiting for Fargo to drop the cash - also safer bet.


Are you not entertained?

why didn't your store accept my turn based demo?
*I updated the camera to move faster with the player.
http://www.sendspace.com/file/mmfubg
 

koyima

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- Unity popularity: reason for many sub-par titles out there

:troll:
You have to take the good with the bad.

Popularity will attract everyone, not only the most talented developers, but
everyone and anyone wanting to make a game. You get two things from this fact:

- a) high amount of games completed with quality

- b) even more games completed with less quality,
but then again completed and published is more than I can say for dream-games.

In any case games on the showcase list aren't sub-par browser make-money-fast games,
you can judge for yourself.

Like the Flash example brought up earlier. Anyway, enough for today.
 

Burning Bridges

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Now to this issue of support. "Oh, lots of people use Unity - therefore inXile will have lots of support!". Yeah, I can totally see a post from Fargo now appearing on the Unity Community Forums. "Hey, we're trying to make a AAA title and this shit here don't work... Someone help?"

:lol:
 
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Codex 2012 Codex 2013 Codex 2014 PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut Codex+ Now Streaming! Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Codex USB, 2014 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech Bubbles In Memoria A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. My team has the sexiest and deadliest waifus you can recruit. Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
You know, it is a bit strange that an artist ( koyima everything you posted indicates that you are good artist) seems to find it proper to extol the virtues of a game engine. Aren't artists just one of the "inputs" to the engine? Have you been involved in the coding part of any production? I'm not trolling I want to know the answer to this question. I haven't worked on any commercial game, so I'm not sure about the art pipeline but isn't the usual artist involvement like this:
  • game designer tells them what art he/she wants in the game
  • they make concept art from that
  • concept art is iterated over by designer and artist till its done
  • actual art is created by artist, subject to limits of the engine, i.e. engine dudes tell how many polys it may have, how many textures, joints etc
  • art gets passed to engine dudes who plop it in
  • engine dudes and artist iterate over the art till it works properly in game
Please correct me if I'm wrong and you actually have experience with working in a game engine. Just making art for one in your fav 3D program doesn't count as engine experience.
 

koyima

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You know, it is a bit strange that an artist ( koyima everything you posted indicates that you are good artist) seems to find it proper to extol the virtues of a game engine. Aren't artists just one of the "inputs" to the engine? Have you been involved in the coding part of any production? I'm not trolling I want to know the answer to this question. I haven't worked on any commercial game, so I'm not sure about the art pipeline but isn't the usual artist involvement like this:
  • game designer tells them what art he/she wants in the game
  • they make concept art from that
  • concept art is iterated over by designer and artist till its done
  • actual art is created by artist, subject to limits of the engine, i.e. engine dudes tell how many polys it may have, how many textures, joints etc
  • art gets passed to engine dudes who plop it in
  • engine dudes and artist iterate over the art till it works properly in game
Please correct me if I'm wrong and you actually have experience with working in a game engine. Just making art for one in your fav 3D program doesn't count as engine experience.

I am not only an artist. Currently I am coding my 3rd title for a client.

I have been coding on and off since I was 15, but focused on 3d since that is what I liked, 3 years ago a big project went under mainly due to programmers not doing their stuff, I then decided I would advance my programming skills so
I can be a better judge of skill/work. Anyway. Just some background for you there.

Anyway good day to you guys, good luck. I hope I at least shed some light on why the decision was made,
I think I tried to explain many of the factors that played a role and probably why Unity got this title.
 
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Davaris

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Now to this issue of support. "Oh, lots of people use Unity - therefore inXile will have lots of support!". Yeah, I can totally see a post from Fargo now appearing on the Unity Community Forums. "Hey, we're trying to make a AAA title and this shit here don't work... Someone help?"

:lol:

I'm not sure where that came from. We already established they have the code base. And they usually give the important teams private forums on request. We were discussing individuals using Unity and what they can expect. Wasteland 2 was a done discussion, long ago, as far as I was concerned.
 

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