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I'm sorry Bethesda but...WTF???

Relien

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Nov 24, 2005
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Claw said:
I wouldn't even mind NPCs gaining a little skill-experience along with the player, IF they gain experience in the skills relevant for themselves rather than whatever the player gains.

Heh, that way you could play a truly evil person:

- Listen, o people of Cyrodiil! Today, I'll teach you an essential skill to stop the Daedric invasion. We'll all learn the secrets of........speechcraft!! MUAHAHAHA!!
 

Gwendo

Augur
Joined
Aug 22, 2004
Messages
989
We have to use skills to eaise levels, then NPC's should gain levels only if they practice their skills (without cheating, like the woman in the 20min video).

I don't see why someone who just wanders around the city would raise their sneak skill. The PC won't, i'm sure.

I think that since we spend time to make our PC powerful, we should feel powerful. But if monters and NPC just automaticaly stay updated to match the PC, then what's the incentive to raise levels? Just throw stats away and make it an adventure game like tomb raider or rune.
 

Crichton

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Jul 7, 2004
Messages
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I think that since we spend time to make our PC powerful, we should feel powerful. But if monters and NPC just automaticaly stay updated to match the PC, then what's the incentive to raise levels? Just throw stats away and make it an adventure game like tomb raider or rune.

I suppose this (as usual) is where I fall off, if the game's properly balanced why would you want to make your character more powerful (hence wrecking the balance)? Did you wish you could increase your character's "sneak skill" in Thief?
 

Crichton

Prophet
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Well Crichton.. Thief isn't an RPG. Are you possibly roleplaying an exceptionally daft character right now?

That's certainly true since there's only one role to play (garret the thief). If all you could do in oblivion was play a thief, but you could treadmill to sneak better, would that make oblivion an RPG?
 

Kairal

Novice
Joined
Jan 26, 2006
Messages
65
Several points I have to make here

1) If the levelling is done correctly enemies shouldn't level at the same rate as you do. Treadmilling is still effective just not as effective.

2) If it's done in that fashion you shouldn't be able to tell they're levelling. For example was it in Gothic 2 as well? I never noticed if it was. As such it doesn't need to be plausible because you should never notice.

3) At least in Oblivion it does make sense. There is a widescale change going on. I think if I heard about a large scale daedric invasion I'd start training in some sort of weapon use personally, just to be safe.

4) what's this bizarre obcession with it being plausible anyway, most other game systems aren't plausible yet usually people don't run around screaming about how unrealistic they are.
 

Gwendo

Augur
Joined
Aug 22, 2004
Messages
989
I just think that a farmer, who spends the day in the farm, some shopping and drinking some beers in the tavern, shouldn't level up as much and as fast as the PC, who fights monsters, explorer dangerous dungeons, buys expensive armor and weapons, etc...
 

Oarfish

Prophet
Joined
Sep 3, 2005
Messages
2,511
Gwendo said:
I just think that a farmer, who spends the day in the farm, some shopping and drinking some beers in the tavern

Yeah, but TES is usage based. So he really should get better at farming related skills like digging holes and incest, not weapon / thief skills.
 

Atrokkus

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That's certainly true since there's only one role to play (garret the thief)
You're wrong. IT's not because it's a predefined role you play, but because you don't interact with the world in the right measure, and do not affect it, you just do missions.
 

Crichton

Prophet
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Jul 7, 2004
Messages
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You're wrong. IT's not because it's a predefined role you play, but because you don't interact with the world in the right measure, and do not affect it, you just do missions.

In Myst I could interact with and affect the world, does that make Myst an RPG? No one in morrowind noticed anything I did and I didn't have more options for interacting with it than thief (no real dialogue either way), does that mean that morrowind isn't an RPG?

I'm sure someone can find one of those old 'codex "what defines an RPG for YOU?" threads, but the point of that post is that RPG =/= treadmilling, arcanum would still be an rpg if you spent all 60-odd points on the character creation screen.
 

Antiphon

Scholar
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Feb 9, 2006
Messages
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While in a game store recently, I suffered a childlike impulse and bought the guide, justifying the purchase with the thought I'll be able to mod the game sooner by learning it quicker.

It appears there may be a need for some quotes from the guide in this thread.


Prima's Oblivion Game Guide said:
The world adapts to your character, so you generally encounter enemies that are no more powerful than your character at whatever level you are. This is because most enemies you run into are either "leveled" to you or are generated from "leveled lists." In general, most humanoid enemies (Bandits, Vampires, Marauders, Conjurers, Necromancers) are leveled to you--as you increase in level, these enemies increase in strength along with you, so that they always provide a reasonable challenge. Likewise, most creatures are generated from leveled lists--meaning that when you enter a dungeon, the game checks your level and populates the dungeon with enemies appropriate to your level...

...In general, humanoid enemies are 1-4 levels below your current level, while "boss" enemies will be at or slightly above your level...

...In general, creatures are not leveled to you. If you see an Ancient Ghost, you know that it is Level 9 and has 170 hit points, no matter if you encounter it at Level 9 or at Level 29. Instead, the game provides you with a challenge by pulling creatures from leveled lists--as you rise in level, you will encounter higher-level creatures (although you will continue to see lower-level creatures as well). The exceptions to that rule are the top-level creatures of each creature type, which increase in strength with you to provide a challenge for your high-level character. Quest-specific creatures are also leveled...

...Increasing Your Sneak Skill...Beware: you aren't the only one gaining skill! Each time you gain a level, all the creatures and people in the world gain increases to their Sneak, too. Granted, most won't be gaining skill as fast as a dedicated thief, but it will be that much harder for non-stealthy characters to successfully sneak around...

...Lockpicking...As your character gains levels, the locks get harder and harder...

...Arrest...The guards are always 10 levels tougher than you--guard captains 15 levels tougher.
I hope that helps clear up any confusion. There is no guarantee the Prima Guide is not confused. :)
 

Psilon

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Apparently Zorro isn't one of the archetypes Bethesda discussed when coming up with thief quests. Whatever happened to mowing down troopers like the Imperial City level from Dark Forces?
 

AlanC9

Liturgist
Joined
Aug 12, 2003
Messages
505
Antiphon said:
The world adapts to your character, so you generally encounter enemies that are no more powerful than your character at whatever level you are. This is because most enemies you run into are either "leveled" to you or are generated from "leveled lists.".

No different at all from MW. The question is what happens when you're tough enough to take on whatever the Oblivion equivalent of Ascended Sleepers is.


...Increasing Your Sneak Skill...Beware: you aren't the only one gaining skill! Each time you gain a level, all the creatures and people in the world gain increases to their Sneak, too. Granted, most won't be gaining skill as fast as a dedicated thief, but it will be that much harder for non-stealthy characters to successfully sneak around...

...Lockpicking...As your character gains levels, the locks get harder and harder...

So it's a Red Queen's Race. If you're not actively working on your thief skills, the result is that they will effectively deteriorate.

...Arrest...The guards are always 10 levels tougher than you--guard captains 15 levels tougher.

If there's a less-immersive way to handle law enforcement than invincible guards, I haven't heard of it. Or is this an Ultima tribute?
 

Relien

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AlanC9 said:
No different at all from MW. The question is what happens when you're tough enough to take on whatever the Oblivion equivalent of Ascended Sleepers is.

Probably this:

The exceptions to that rule are the top-level creatures of each creature type, which increase in strength with you to provide a challenge for your high-level character.
 

Antiphon

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Rew_Klip said:
Many monsters are not leveled at all, All NPCs are.
It looks like the guide is saying, for NPCs, just enemies (Bandits, Vampires, Marauders, Conjurers, Necromancers), guard, boss and maybe quest related NPCs are leveled. So apparently, the local farmer isn't going to someday be inexplicably uber powerful.
 

AlanC9

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Aug 12, 2003
Messages
505
Relien said:
AlanC9 said:
No different at all from MW. The question is what happens when you're tough enough to take on whatever the Oblivion equivalent of Ascended Sleepers is.

Probably this:

The exceptions to that rule are the top-level creatures of each creature type, which increase in strength with you to provide a challenge for your high-level character.

Whoops! Missed that completely.

Guess that means we never get to be really uber in Oblivion. OK, I guess. You've got to do something along those lines if you're doing an open-ended combat game.
 

sanibonani

Novice
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Mar 19, 2006
Messages
13
Sorry if this is slightly off the topic , but i didn't think it would go well for me if i started another Oblivion thread!

I do defend Morrowind, and hopefully Oblivion, to some degree. Although these are poor RPGs by the standards of Ultima, BG, etc, i do find the expansive open worlds captivating. The very fact that you can watch the sun set over the mountains, knowing you can walk there and explore them, finding ruins, ancient temples, and dungeons along the way, is very appealing to me. That level of immersion is big part of what i have always loved about roleplaying. I think the devs are to be commended for the beautiful environments they create.

The downside, is that those dungeons and ruins are populated by lazy RPG cliches that would have been considered passee in the pen and paper games of 20 years ago. It feels like all the effort went into creating the gameworld, and the actual game part was inserted as an afterthought. (particularly vile are the combat system, the crappy background 'lore', and the nice-try-but-no-cigar levelling system.)

If only they could get some real CRPG designers (think of the Origin: We Create Worlds days) to drop their game into the an engine like this. THAT really would be something to behold. It's frustrating because you know those guys are out there (even in the indie scene) but the studios don't seem to want to spend the money on those guys to create a real RPG, prefering four years of graphics design to get the fanboys salivating.

I hope they get the message that there a huge market for RPGs of substance in the future. Failing that, lets hope Bioware pull it out of the bag with Dragon Age!
 

Pr()ZaC

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Sep 16, 2005
Messages
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The "lows" from PC Gamer (US) which rated the game 95% :roll:
Lows: High system reqs; enemies scale to your level, lessoning the reward of character advancement.
 

Lumpy

Arcane
Joined
Sep 11, 2005
Messages
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But then, it begs the question - why have character levels at all?
 

Antiphon

Scholar
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Messages
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Pr()ZaC said:
The "lows" from PC Gamer (US) which rated the game 95% :roll:
Lows: High system reqs; enemies scale to your level, lessoning the reward of character advancement.
Not all enemies though. That's why I quoted directly from the guide, it's not as simple as all this or none of that. One will have to recognize enemies (think) before attacking.
 

Crichton

Prophet
Joined
Jul 7, 2004
Messages
1,210
But then, it begs the question - why have character levels at all?

Excellent question Lumpy; what is it about character progression that Antiphon, Pr()zak and PC gamer find so "rewarding"? Why does the game have to get easier as it goes on?
 

Rendelius

Liturgist
Joined
Jan 25, 2003
Messages
164
Crichton said:
But then, it begs the question - why have character levels at all?

Excellent question Lumpy; what is it about character progression that Antiphon, Pr()zak and PC gamer find so "rewarding"? Why does the game have to get easier as it goes on?

To my best knowledge, some enemies will level with you, some won't. So you will have those things to dispatch easily (a very rewarding experience), and you will have foes that are never easy (also rewarding).

This will guarantee that even at level 53, which is the highest level you can reach, there's something to challenge you. In Morrowind, after you were level 20, there was nothing left to fear. Didn't like that.
 

crufty

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I was never a fan of the super ninja monkey.
Scaling enemies = bad
Having areas be difficuilt for a certain "level" = good
 

Pr()ZaC

Scholar
Joined
Sep 16, 2005
Messages
431
Crichton said:
But then, it begs the question - why have character levels at all?

Excellent question Lumpy; what is it about character progression that Antiphon, Pr()zak and PC gamer find so "rewarding"? Why does the game have to get easier as it goes on?
Rewarding? I never said that. I said it was unfair to the player.
 

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