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Oblivion Hate- From an industry "insider"

WouldBeCreator

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I want you to find a single post I've made concerning Oblivion that is based on the actual merits of the game, as opposed to the internal logic of those who are criticizing / defending it. (I've hit people on both sides for their illogic.)

Furthermore, the whole, "You must play it to judge it" logic is fairly specious; it means that we cannot rely at all on what third parties say in rendering our own judgments, which means that for everything from diet to rocketry, we've got to ignore everything we know. Surely that can't be so?

When someone comes and says, "You'll love Oblivion because it has light bloom all over the place and also because the combat is twitch-based" -- a kind of combat I've defended elsewhere on these boards -- it's perfectly legitimate to respond, "The light bloom looks ugly in every screenshot I've seen and I don't want to play twitch-based combat. If that's all you can say, I'm betting Oblivion ain't much of an RPG." For you to wah wah wah all the way home because the responder didn't buy Oblivion before deciding whether he'd likely enjoy it or not strikes me as ridiculous.
 

Seven

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Amazing:
*A visual triumph/technical achievement.
*The sense of scale, history and lore embedded (even their playful stuff like Anu and Padomay)
*The freedom of customization in your character's template (stat sheet) - no other RPG save for Baldurs Gate and Fallout offered such freedom in profession.
*The world is alive - NPCs are not cardboard cutouts (ok some are) but they are active, and make the world seem alive. The Ultima series had this, but nothing on this scale.

Nice points to have in an RPG, but where's the story, where's the sense of consequence, where's the fucking dialogue and interaction with the world and NPCs. The only thing Oblivion has going for it is that it's a sandbox which is great if you like to dick around and explore for hours on end, but RPGs aren't just exploring and killing stuff.

Sorry to use potty language, but this Codex and we don't sugarcoat it.
 

Xi

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WouldBeCreator said:
Furthermore, the whole, "You must play it to judge it" logic is fairly specious; it means that we cannot rely at all on what third parties say in rendering our own judgments, which means that for everything from diet to rocketry, we've got to ignore everything we know. Surely that can't be so?

I don't think you can even argue that point because how do you know if the third parties are to be trusted? Truely the only way to know for sure is to buy and play it.

Based on the examples you gave, the game would sound atrocious. These aren't the only descriptions of gameplay available either.

Think of "me" as a third party who's saying that it's pretty good and that you should consider it. So, if you are looking for an enjoyable game with some RPG elements get this one. The question is do you trust me? Hell, I don't know if I trust myself. lol

Edit: WouldBeCreator, I wasn't really directing my comments at you in peticular either. I'm surprised that you responded actually.
 

WouldBeCreator

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Well, it depends whether you're making a fact statement or a value statement. If you say, "Stuff doesn't actually pop into view in Oblivion the way people have been claiming," I'll give that some credit. If you say, "The way stuff pops in doesn't matter because everything looks so great you don't care," I'll give that significantly less credit, since you're basically asking me to trust your taste, rather than your ability to perceive facts. As they say, "de gustibus . . . ."

Most of what people have been responding to are fact statements -- or the absence of them. When they are responding to value statements, they tend to be dismissive because the Oblivion boosters are so often juvenile / incoherent / excessive in their praise.
 

Xi

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WouldBeCreator said:
Well, it depends whether you're making a fact statement or a value statement.

This is still bound to interpretation. Some people are making factual statements without even having played the game. They are treating second-hand knowledge like it was first-hand experience. I guess that's what I was trying to dig out of the arguement.(But have done so poorly)
 

Saint_Proverbius

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WouldBeCreator said:
Furthermore, the whole, "You must play it to judge it" logic is fairly specious; it means that we cannot rely at all on what third parties say in rendering our own judgments, which means that for everything from diet to rocketry, we've got to ignore everything we know. Surely that can't be so?

The part about this whole argument that "You must play it to judge it" thing really means, "Hey, go on and buy the game!" because there is no fucking demo of the game. I seriously doubt there will ever be a demo of the game because it didn't need one to sell.

If people can't judge the game based on watching that free stream of Oblivion that gamespot was nice enough to have provided to demostrate their new silliness, then there's a fundamental problem with their ability to grasp things. Just watching that stream, you can watch all the hype, promise after promise shatter. "No more dead cities", "Better AI", "Better dialogue", and so forth just crumble if you're even halfway paying attention to what the GameSpot guy was doing in his play through.
 

dongle

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Daigoji_Gai said:
If there are spoiler tags I will go into greater details, including the multiple solutions to the hijacked ship turned inn that you can encounter early on.
Is that actually true tho? I re-ran through that several times and I swear I clicked every possible combo of dialogue options. Yes, it gave a range of possible responses from you, yet every single one resulted in; “Pirate” StartCombat->Player. Again, choice but no consequence.
 

Twinfalls

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Hello Mr 'Industry Insider', why have you assiduously ignored Vault Dweller's responses to you? Your answers are there, if you can be bothered, and genuinely want to learn something rather than simply have your public comments supported by the like-minded.

I strongly suggest you play games like Daggerfall and Fallout, then re-think your views on Oblivion. If you have already played those games, then play them again.
 

CrashDummy

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Mar 20, 2006
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Well, this has been a good little topic so far.

Xi- I had told someone that you can't properly judge a game BEFORE you actually play it. Yeah, it is fair for you to say...

"It doesn't interest me, or it just plain looks sucky from what I have seen." But to tell others the game sucks without the experience of actually playing it makes you seem biased.

There have been A LOT of games that did not interest me at first by just looking at them. I remember 'NBA Ballers' looked like a horrible B-ball game that only had good player models. I remember actually playing it and changing my opinion. I wasn't that interested in Oblivion, I just wanted a new game to tell you the truth. My anticipation for the game was 'whatever' at best. I always have money to spend on games so I bought it, liked it, and don't regret my purchase. I just wish some of you would give the game a solid try before giving it a solid opinion.

Also, if you guys think Bethsoft hypes their games...then some of you probably don't follow the Madden Series. Madden is a great game of simulation football, no doubting that... but EA brings a new level of hype to the table.

Also, you can't blame Beth for hyping anything. It is called advertising and they want to be successful as a company so it needs to be done. For you guys to act as if it is sin is preposterous. All games try to sell you something, sure you can be honest and say..."While the Radiant A.I will not be revolutionary, we think it is a step in the right direction." Or you can go all Peter Molyneux and say "The A.I in this game will make every other games in the market today, look foolish and it will only make them strive to reach the level of this games A.I" And guess which one is going to sell more...

All indie devs have to make money someday, and for people to dislike them for 'selling-out' isn't fair to the devs. They put a lot of work into their games and then later realize that they could make a lot of money off of said game...if you were in Beth's position you would most-likely do the same.

But Oblivion is still a great game, and I don't think reviewers are being paid, I think it is just a great game and they are giving it their honest opinions.
 

Sander

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CrashDummy said:
Also, you can't blame Beth for hyping anything. It is called advertising and they want to be successful as a company so it needs to be done. For you guys to act as if it is sin is preposterous. All games try to sell you something, sure you can be honest and say..."While the Radiant A.I will not be revolutionary, we think it is a step in the right direction." Or you can go all Peter Molyneux and say "The A.I in this game will make every other games in the market today, look foolish and it will only make them strive to reach the level of this games A.I" And guess which one is going to sell more...
So, basically, you're saying it's A-Okay to lie about the features of a game to sell more and that we shouldn't bitch about it.
Good to know people are keeping some standards around here.
 

LlamaGod

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if a game truely has some awesome features, they should be able to fully display it and show it to people.

With stalker they talked about their super Global AI and what did they do? They made a video displaying it and explaining it, and other videos showing off other features they were hyping, GOOD videos too.


With Oblivion they just showed screenshots, said a bunch of bullshit and went 'TRUST US, ITS GONNA BE KEWL'
 

Claw

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Project: Eternity Divinity: Original Sin 2
Solik said:
Well, no, but given that it's popular and mainstream, what they would have had to do to "get it right" is way above and beyond what Gothic, Mount & Blade, or Hammer & Sickle have to do. You put the bar much, much higher.
Bullshit. If anything, reviewers praise the hell out of Oblivion features that they didn't find worth commenting on when Gothic had them years ago.
I do agree that Oblivion's graphics are next-gen, however - compared to Gothic 2.
Technologically, Oblivion totally beats Gothic 2. Hooray!
 

OverrideB1

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Xi said:
Both sides are offering good arguement. Yet, I still see people posting opinions about the game without having played it. Basically you are just telling lies in order to support an arguement without basis in fact. At least play the game before you Love/Hate it.

I personally have put probably 20 Hours into the game thus far. It is a lot different then Morrowind in many respects. Is it Daggerfall? No, but it's waay better then Morrowind.

It's a fine game that offers plenty of Roleplaying. Maybe you have to use your imagination from time to time, but this is part of the immersion. What game doesn't require imagination?
Wait... let me get this right -- I have to buy a game that appeals to me about as much as liver-flavoured toothpaste before I can decide it appeals to me about as much as liver-flavoured toothpaste?

I don't need to buy it in order to know it doesn't appeal to me. And I can state my opinions of the game without nuying it either -- that's what all the pre-release hype was for: so people could form an opinion of the game.


Oh and another thing -- when did opinions you don't agree with becomes "lies". Did I miss a fucking meeting somewhere?
 

DarkUnderlord

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Daigoji_Gai said:
This is my first post ladies and gents so be gentle with me...
Unwritten Forum Rule #2: Never be gentle with the new guys.

Daigoji_Gai said:
I've also noticed a lot of interesting "Beth must have paid them posts."
Pity the fool who takes out of context comments seriously.

  1. More and more, the gaming mags are praising titles irrespective of their faults. So much so, that sometimes the faults don't even get mentioned. Anyone who encounters said faults is then an "idiot" who "obviously didn't look at the minimum system requirements".
  2. It always seems to be a bit odd that gaming mags at first highly praise a game based purely on hype. Even when they've played it, they dismiss any concerns they have and meander off into lala-land and pretend that "they'll be fixed" so there's no need mentioning them.
  3. Gaming mags rely on advertising. If they critiscised those early problems in their preview, would they get that exclusive interview they've always wanted? (Remember the Russians)
  4. It turns out, people have problems with the graphics and just about everything else pushed as "super fantastic" by the mags. Things don't quite match up with what the mags said. Why is that?
  5. "They were paid to say that" has become the new "quick response" by some idiots.
Daigoji_Gai said:
If you look at the RPG genre today, there are only a "handful" of titles that put the "role" back in as this site uses as its motto.
Yup. Hence our anger.

Daigoji_Gai said:
To me, a decent RPG doesn't limit the user, and offers a gamut of options and features and the freedom to carve your own path in the world, and that is what E.S. does.
You can ignore the main plot, can you turn against it and join the bad guys like you can in Fallout or Arcanum? If not, are you *really* free to do what you want or is "wandering around aimlessly" the new definition of freedom?

Daigoji_Gai said:
It isn't perfect, and the ES games never have, plagued with bugs and occasionally clunky controls. But when it comes to immersion, scale of world, professions, NPC and world interaction, I am hard pressed to find any equivalent.
You have a choice between eating a turd or eating nothing. Does that make the turd edible?

While I don't personally believe that the ES games are quite turds, I certainly have fun with them, the lack of anything better doesn't mean we should let their problems go so easily.

I want a better game. What's so wrong with wanting a better game?

Daigoji_Gai said:
So my question is, am I being paid to come here to say I like Oblivion?
Yes. You're posting this on company time (from your UGO computer no less with UGO's IP), which you're getting paid for. Therefore, you are being paid to come here and say you like Oblivion. In fact, no matter what you post on company time, you're getting paid to say that.

AM I RITE?

Daigoji_Gai said:
I hope this post isn't edited because I am praising the title
Unwritten Forum Rule #3: We don't edit posts, except those Russian spambot ones. People are allowed to fall on their own stupidity over here.

Daigoji_Gai said:
I am dying for Gothic 3, don't get me wrong, but to lambast credibility because someone loves this, and let us be honest, utterly expansive and immersive game world, as being "paid" by Bethsoft baffles my mind.
How come that Wired Blog was the only one that mentioned the bad graphics and popping effect? Why did every other preview ignore it? Why did every other preview not even MENTION that problem? Why was that Wired Blog dismissed as utter crud and irrelevant and "Obviously someone who hasn't played the game because all those reviewers who have, have nothing but praise for the game" yet now that the game's released, everyone else is encountering the same problems?

Why do paid gaming magazines that released previews, not mention any of the problems with Oblivion before its release yet an unpaid blog does?

Why did that Russian site who dared post screenshots and mention the poor graphics of Oblivion get told by Bethesda to take the preview down? It was an "unoptimised build" apparently. I wonder, is everyone playing the same unoptimised build? Why would Bethesda threaten them to take the review down? Surely they weren't going to deny them anything?

Daigoji_Gai said:
Jed said:
Who's a "hater" here? Why I just can't wait to get my copy of Oblivion so I can role-play a spear-wielding bad guy who takes the throne of the emperor by force! I will also specialize in my favorite spell, levitation, to help me get out of any bad situation! Also, I can't wait to level my character's skills and stats so the combat, lockpicking, and stealth that are directly related to those skills will grow in ease since I'm not really an action gamer. Leave the FPS combat to the shooters, it's all RPG for me & my sweet, sweet Oblivion...
Here is the kicker that I hope you understand.

If you want to play like this you can - and there are gamers that do.
There are gamers that are levitating and using spears in Oblivion? Wow, really?

Daigoji_Gai said:
Bethesda is indie compared to an EA, Microsoft or a Sony.
Oh, right. Well if Bethesda with its multi-million dollar budget is "indie" compared to EA, than what the fuck are these guys? Super-Duper Indie?

If you look at the world that way, I think your vision is warped. "Indie" as a label doesn't mean anything if you're applying it to bid budget games simply because, gee-whillickers, making a game is tough business.

Higher Game said:
We need Blizzard to make Diablo III and absolutely annihilate every other action RPG. That would do the trick. No one would make anything else to compete with it for years, so they would stick to more traditional fare.
Are you kidding? If Diablo 1 was anything to go buy, then every gaming company on the planet will copy Diablo III.

Higher Game said:
I don't think anyone tries to make prettier games than Doom 3 or Unreal 2007, so they make more interesting games to compete, since they know they can't win the graphics war.
Ermm.. That's not true either. If anything, some games are pushing graphics further and further at the expense of game-play. Take Half-Life 2 for example and even Doom 3 itself.

CrashDummy said:
Also, if you guys think Bethsoft hypes their games...then some of you probably don't follow the Madden Series. Madden is a great game of simulation football, no doubting that... but EA brings a new level of hype to the table.
Once again, someone is bigger, better and badder so Bethesda are cute cuddly little Koala's by comparison and how dare we call them bad names?
 

Twinfalls

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Claw said:
I do agree that Oblivion's graphics are next-gen, however - compared to Gothic 2.
Technologically, Oblivion totally beats Gothic 2. Hooray!

Are they? Does it?

Gothic 2 features animation that is fluid, convincing, and has more variety and interest. Gothic 2 features fully forested environments with a decent draw distance and no LOD issues whatsoever.

Sure, Oblivion uses Speedtree and has a longer overall draw distance for the environment (and a MUCH shorter one for structures).

But to put it in Ratty's words (which was one of the best debut posts I've read here):

Ratty said:
I don't know how else to explain the assessment that Oblivion visuals are "next-gen" (which is, by the way, a stupid phrase which ought to be banned under the penalty of death). What, exactly, makes them "next-gen"? Is it mayhap the notably poor execution of view distance and level of detail, a flaw which would be excusable had near-perfect implementations of those concepts not premiered in Far Cry (which I presume is "cur-gen" game) two years earlier? Or does the quote refer to sub-par character models and animation which make me wonder what sorry bunch of cabbages BethSoft hired to do modelling for Oblivion; probably some high school kids who decided that spawning a teapot primitive in an evaluation copy of 3D Studio MAX makes them professional modellers. Or perhaps it is the ubiquitous bloom effect, which can't possibly serve a purpose other than conveying the impression that the player characeter snorts crystal meth in regular intervals (probably at every loading screen)? You know, the prevalent consensus in the gaming industry and community that overabundance of ridiculous shaders is what constitutes next generation graphics has led me to firm belief that next generation graphics, much like next generation gameplay, next generation television and next generation cellular phones, isn't worth all the effort and hype. If showing off TEH MADD SHAEDR SKILLZ acquired in some online HLSL tutorial is what makes one a "next-gen" developer, then I'd rather stick with "cur-gen". Better yet, I'd travel 15 years back, into the era when it took special ingenuity to develop a 256-color engine with parallax scrolling and make it run smoothly on a 386 with 2MB RAM and a Trident 512KB video card.

Incidentally, regarding Oblivion's graphics - where is the parallax mapping, which Kathode explicitly said was still in, not long before release? Seen the dungeon walls in the e3 footage and those early screenshots? Noticed how that depth to the bricks has now disappeared, to be replaced by large, flat, dull textures?
 

crufty

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Daigoji_Gai said:
To me, a decent RPG doesn't limit the user, and offers a gamut of options and features and the freedom to carve your own path in the world, and that is what E.S. does. It isn't perfect, and the ES games never have, plagued with bugs and occasionally clunky controls. But when it comes to immersion, scale of world, professions, NPC and world interaction, I am hard pressed to find any equivalent.

Get thee to a rougelike, fiend! If you haven't been chased by demons across the abyss with a low-level character in Linely's Dungeon Crawl, then you haven't lived son! *cough cough hack* Why back in my day...

Ok, ok, five pages later, if Mr. Gai is still reading. Consider: Shadows of the Colussus. Why is Shadows of the Colossus hailed as one of the best games ever for the PS2? Universally loved by most. But...talk about unpopulated environments. There are literally only 17 monsters total in the game. And two weapons. And so, I have two questions:

1) Is Shadows of the Colussus an RPG?
2) Why does Oblivion recieve so much flack when Shadows does not?
 

Section8

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I can understand what you are saying, but if you haven't played the game your arguement simply isn't fair and can't be factual until you do. I don't think that's too much to ask. I've drawn different conclusions after actually playing the game and I've read most of the RPG Codex arguements. I agree with some and disagree with others.

I think I'm perfectly capable of being fair and somewhat factual. Think of my Oblivion opinions as a research paper. I haven't experienced it first hand, but through collation of the "work" others have done, I'm capable of coming to some reasonable conclusions. Obviously, I would rather make a judgment on something I have experienced first hand, and that's why I made mention of the fact that I'm collating second hand info.

I don't think you can even argue that point because how do you know if the third parties are to be trusted? Truely the only way to know for sure is to buy and play it.

Fuck that. I prefer informed purchases over blind consumerism. As for the veracity of the third-party info, that's one of the many reasons I frequent this place. I've been around the patrons here long enough to know where we're likely to agree, and where we're likely to disagree.

I've also been lurking around the ESF and reading opinions posted there, both positive and negative.

Re: Media in Bethesda's Pocket?

If anyone thinks that publishers mail out a money order with review copies, they're being naive. Conversely, if anyone believes publishers don't have many methods of "encouragement" they extend toward the gaming media, they're just as naive.

Obviously, advertising plays a big role here. Features such as exclusive content are usually a "one hand washes the other" deal. Publisher X might agree to give Gaming Media Site Y an exclusive game demo. That means assured hits, and increased advertising revenue, and it's only polite for the media outlet to "show their appreciation."

Likewise, an exclusive cover spot on a gaming rag for a much anticipated game is guaranteed to shift more units, which is doubly beneficial, since they're able to reach a broader advertising audience, and the increased sales yield more profits. And again, this sort of thing is amply rewarded.

And since the actual publication of games is controlled by a fairly small number of large corporations, then affairs can be handled on a much wider scale than just a series of games. A publisher might give a magazine the rights to put a full game that's no longer making a profit on shelves. So Game A (on the coverdisk) and Game B (the forthcoming "next big thing") might have absolutely nothing in common, but the publisher, has done the mag a favour that is expected to be returned.

Hell, it's not even unheard of to throw extravagant media events to curry favour. A publisher with a forthcoming tactical shooter might send a selected group of media pundits off for a day of pretend counter-terrorism training. A publisher with a racing game due out in a month or two might arrange hotlaps with a pro driver, or a day on a skidpan.

Certainly not every reviewer gets the treatment, but they're just lower rungs on the same ladder.

Eventually, the attitudes of media outlets who participate in this sort of behaviour filter out anyone with conflicting principles (like "honesty" and "integrity") by alienating them completely.

To use a comparison with the "real" media, does anyone believe that a principled journo with a healthy dose of cynicism would willingly work for a rag like "The National Enquirer"? It's a self-perpetuating cycle; the image and attitudes of the publication serve as a deterent for those with conflicting principles, and it just makes way for those willing to conform to the "standard" of reporting.

Currently, the perception I have of the majority of the gaming media, is that it's basically a bunch of young males who want a job playing games, and are willing to write whatever the boss insists upon, as long as it assures they can keep up their slacker fucking careers.

Whee.
 

Saint_Proverbius

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Section8 said:
Hell, it's not even unheard of to throw extravagant media events to curry favour. A publisher with a forthcoming tactical shooter might send a selected group of media pundits off for a day of pretend counter-terrorism training. A publisher with a racing game due out in a month or two might arrange hotlaps with a pro driver, or a day on a skidpan.

Or how about early review copies? The game was just released, yet there were reviews coming out the day the game was released. First reviews get the most hits, most ad revenue, etc.
 

dagamer667

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"*A visual triumph/technical achievement. "

Visual achievement, yes. Technical achievement? No.
 

Xi

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OverrideB1 said:
Xi said:
Both sides are offering good arguement. Yet, I still see people posting opinions about the game without having played it. Basically you are just telling lies in order to support an arguement without basis in fact. At least play the game before you Love/Hate it.

I personally have put probably 20 Hours into the game thus far. It is a lot different then Morrowind in many respects. Is it Daggerfall? No, but it's waay better then Morrowind.

It's a fine game that offers plenty of Roleplaying. Maybe you have to use your imagination from time to time, but this is part of the immersion. What game doesn't require imagination?
Wait... let me get this right -- I have to buy a game that appeals to me about as much as liver-flavoured toothpaste before I can decide it appeals to me about as much as liver-flavoured toothpaste?

I don't need to buy it in order to know it doesn't appeal to me. And I can state my opinions of the game without nuying it either -- that's what all the pre-release hype was for: so people could form an opinion of the game.


Oh and another thing -- when did opinions you don't agree with becomes "lies". Did I miss a fucking meeting somewhere?

That wasn't my point. You can like/dislike whatever you want. In fact, don't buy Oblivion. It's ok. The point of my posting was to point out that you have no place commenting on things that you have not experienced.(Strangely, this really doesn't even include you because you haven't been one of the folks doing what I have described, but for the sake of arguement here we are.) Merely stating things as fact because you saw or were told about them second hand is not enough. You can't judge a book by it's cover right? Then why does everyone do this? The reason this game has any merit at the RPG Codex is because it's an RPG. This alone is reason enough for you to play it. If you don't like the game after you have played it, then come back and say so. That is ok. If you are going to just outright bash it based on heresey then what did you expect? It's actually a good game(maybe not the best RPG by codex standards) but it is worth at least playing.

The fact that every other thread on the codex is dealing with Oblivion should be enough to at least peak your interest. Hell, don't pay attention to the hype. Just play the game and then decide. It's by no means perfect, but there is a lot more then most of you are giving credit for. It's the senseless bashing that I don't understand. That's all.(The senseless praise is no better of course) So, just play it and decide. I can respect an opinion based on experience. Nothing wrong with that.
 

Xi

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kingcomrade said:
Play the game and then decide? Where's the demo, then?

I completely agree. Bethesda should release a demo. Hell, Daggerfall had the betony Demo. So, why can't Oblivion have like a dungeon demo or something? :shrug:
 

DarkUnderlord

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Xi said:
The point of my posting was to point out that you have no place commenting on things that you have not experienced.
There goes discussions on:
  • Drugs (Ever been a drug pusher? Well, if not you can't comment on them!)
  • Murder (Murders not wrong! You haven't experienced it yet!)
  • Death
  • Abortion
  • Government (Can't comment unless you've been in it, right?)
  • Farm subsidies (Anyone here a farmer? Nope, didn't think so)
  • Just about everything else human beings talk about.
I'm sorry but this is the real world, people comment on things based on information presented to them from reliable sources. There's actually a thing called empathy which is at the very core of human experiences. Read up on it. It's fun!

Xi said:
Merely stating things as fact because you saw or were told about them second hand is not enough.
Have you travelled all around the world? No? THEN HOW DO YOU KNOW THE WORLD IS ROUND, HUH!?

See how idiotic that gets?

Xi said:
You can't judge a book by it's cover right?
Erm... There's a bit of a difference between judging a book by its cover (IE: On a visual image on the front of the book) vs having read several excerpts from the book. It's not too hard to surmise that if the handful of paragraphs you read sucked, the rest of the book sucks too. It's the law of averages. If stabbing someone once hurts, stabbing them twice should hurt too, right? See how that one works? Most things have a certain consistency to them.

Xi said:
Then why does everyone do this? The reason this game has any merit at the RPG Codex is because it's an RPG.
Only because you saw so, though, right? I mean, I haven't called it an RPG because I haven't played it and I can't judge it unless I've played it. I also apparently can't trust anyone else because they're all lieing. Therefore why should I trust you? Why should I trust the developers who call it an RPG? Why should I even be listening to your opinion at all? Listening to your opinion amounts to trusting someone else and that's not playing it myself now, is it?

Xi said:
If you don't like the game after you have played it, then come back and say so. That is ok. If you are going to just outright bash it based on heresey then what did you expect?
All the people who say it is good is here-say too.

Xi said:
It's actually a good game(maybe not the best RPG by codex standards) but it is worth at least playing.
Here you go again, telling me how to think! But by your logic, I can't trust you can I!

Xi said:
The fact that every other thread on the codex is dealing with Oblivion should be enough to at least peak your interest.
Well, every other thread seems to raise a lot of bad points about the game but according to you, I shouldn't be reading those anyway because they're not my opinion.

Xi said:
Just play the game and then decide.
Why? Because I don't trust anyone else on this forum to convey their opinion? Because I can't possibly comprehend the fact that someone might actually have asimilar opinion to me and that if they don't enjoy the game, I likely won't either? Because you're really a Bethesda plant who goal is to sell more copies of the game?

Xi said:
It's by no means perfect
Again, according to you. But that's just here-say!

Xi said:
but there is a lot more then most of you are giving credit for.
More here-say, I can't trust you, haven't played it myself, etc...

Xi said:
It's the senseless bashing that I don't understand.
There's no "senseless" about it. Oblivion was over-hyped. Oblivion doesn't meet the hype. END OF STORY. What I don't get is your senseless argument. What, I have to play "Deep Throat: The Hentai Adventure" to know it's a bad game that I won't enjoy?

Xi said:
I can respect an opinion based on experience. Nothing wrong with that.
Right, so all those threads from people who have played the game and are still critiscising it, did you miss them? You missed them, didn't you?

Look, here's the list:

"Bitchers" (people who find fault with Oblivion) who have played the game:
  • suibhne

    suibhne said:
    I picked it up the other day, and I was particularly relishing the thought of coming here in full fanboi regalia and telling you all that you missed the second coming of the RPG Christ - that you're all 100% wrong about Oblivion, and that history will not judge kindly your shallow oldsk00l prejudices.

    Only problem is, I'd be full of field-ripe feces.
  • jplestat

    jplestat said:
    I actually really realy disliked Oblivion in the first hour.
    The beginning is really quite terrible and boring.
    The interface sucks.
    All that said, the more I play it the more and more I like it.
    What, someone who can "bitch" about parts yet like the game overall? The mind boggles. I thought these people were supposed to be all mindless bitchers who hadn't played the game!
  • Klinn

    Klinn said:
    Oblivion is Morrowind, only more so. Really, it doesn’t feel like a huge advance, just more of the same. But from my perspective that’s not an altogether bad thing.
    Look ma! Another one!
  • Mr. Teatime

    Mr. Teatime said:
    Has anyone else noticed the stupidity of the game's difficulty, or more specifically, levelling system? You can complete the game at level 1 with the rusty sword you find in the tutorial dungeon.
    What, someone else who's played the game and is critiscising it? THE HORROR!
  • Quigs

    Quigs said:
    Played it for a good 5-6 hours last night. Damn fine game.
    Complaints: Light, Shadows, The compass, Faces, Clipping, Eyes, Spotty Psuedo AI, Conversation mini game.
    Praises: The length of Dungeons, Inventory/map interface, Fight system, Marksman system.
    Anyone remember how good the graphics in Oblivion were supposed to be? Anyone?
  • Data4

    Data4 said:
    For all the hype over soil erosion, I'm just not seeing much of an improvement over Morrowind's terrain.
    Hype? What hype? You mean there was hype?
All found on these very forums. It's amazing what you find when you pull your head out of your arse long enough to take a look around. All of them have played the game and all of them have found quite a few things in Oblivion to "bitch" about.

It's all here-say though, isn't it? And no, can't trust them. Nuh-uh. They're all LIERS! ALL OF THEM! LIES!

Quick! Where's my aluminum foil hat?
 

yipsl

Scholar
Joined
Sep 11, 2005
Messages
223
Location
Central Texas
My feeling is that Oblivion is probably an RPG, but an action RPG. I make a distinction between subgenres within the genre of RPG. I won't have Oblivion till April Fools Day (on my own little countdown), but I'll play it and judge it as an action RPG.

I won't judge it as an RPG in the same category as PnP based games like the Baldur's Gate or the Realms of Arkania. I will judge it by Arena and Daggerfall because they are the two best games set in the Elder Scrolls universe by Bethesda Softworks.

I doubt that Oblivion is the next Daggerfall and I've had a discussion over whether it's the next Arena. It's probably as close as one can get in this generation. Graphically, every TES game has been the best it could be in its generation. We just have more issues related to creativity and the development cycle now that we did not have with Daggerfall.

Buggy or not, Daggerfall was creative. Oblivion mixes creativity with derivative mishegoss. RAI as improved scheduling and a combat system as unique as the skills system first developed in Daggerfall is creative. Bits and pieces of every other game that's popular is derivative.

I can see hiring Emil from the Thief series and adding stealth improvements. That fits the TES universe. I can't see making telekinesis a fantasy gravity gun or ditching melee staves for magical staffs as rocket launchers. I don't mind Speedtree, soil erosion or Havok, but I can't see them missing the opportunity to provide a non acrobatics solution for Mages through jump, levitate and slowfall.

The game is a mixed bag. I bet I'll enjoy it, but it will only be half the game it could have been, if the focus groups and marketing spin had not pushed it closer to action than RPG on the action RPG continuum. I still think it has a good chance of being better than Gothic 3 or "The Witcher"; and the marketing hype behind TW is even worse than anything spun out by Pete on his worst days. The Witcher redefining RPGs indeed!

Daigoji_Gai said:
Interestingly, there isn't much in the way of religion in Oblivion. There aren't tons of evil kvlts to join, for example. It seems as if they didn't want to offend anyone with it.

Actually, there aren't any good cults to join. I want that old tyme Tamriel religion as found in Daggerfall. Instead, we get a non-joinable Nine Divines that's more influenced by Arena's conception. At least they've found the topless female models on the Oblivion CD so mods can be made of a typical House of Dibella.

When the fanboys leave the official site out of boredom, I'll do another Nine Divines poll. They've purged the old one along with every serious discussion of Oblivion development as it does not fit into their spin or the amount of bandwidth they wish to allow the site.

As for Japanese RPGs, I love them. I enjoy Final Fantasy VII and earlier, plus Dragon Warrior and ChronoTrigger (but not ChronoCross). I just place them in their own subgenre of RPG.

My favorite Western RPGs to date:

1. Betrayal at Krondor
2. Daggerfall
3. Magic Candle 2
4. Star Trail
5. Arena
6. Might and Magic 6
7. Shadows Over Riva
8. Lands of Lore
9. Might and Magic 7
10. The Bard's Tale (original).
 

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